Top 5 referendums you would ike to see

[nino_savatte]

1. Keep Britain British.

What is "British"? Please define.

 

[untethered]

What is "British"? Please define.

Isn't that the problem? Most people don't even know any more, not least those that weren't British to start with.

 

[nino_savatte]

Isn't that the problem? Most people don't even know any more, not least those that weren't British to start with.

That's because there isn't really any such a thing as "Britishness"; it was constructed after the Act of Union of 1801 - that's if it exists at all.

 

[untethered]

That's because there isn't really any such a thing as "Britishness"; it was constructed after the Act of Union of 1801 - that's if it exists at all.

Fair point.

I'll tell you what, let's swap that referendum for these:

1. Keep England English.
2. Keep Scotland Scottish.
3. Keep Wales Welsh.
4. Keep Ulster British.

 

[nino_savatte]

4. Keep Ulster British.

The 6 counties that are allegedly Ulster are short the 3 counties that make it a proper province on a par with Connacht, Munster and Leinster. It's still a gerrymandered semi-state that has notions of triumphalist Britishness that aren't celebrated anywhere on the so-called mainland.

 

[untethered]

The 6 counties that are allegedly Ulster are short the 3 counties that make it a proper province on a par with Connacht, Munster and Leinster. It's still a gerrymandered semi-state that has notions of triumphalist Britishness that aren't celebrated anywhere on the so-called mainland.

This post brought to you on behalf of u75 committee for a 32-county Ireland.

Don't you think the people of Ulster should decide who they should pledge their allegiance to?

 

[nino_savatte]

This post brought to you on behalf of u75 committee for a 32-county Ireland.

Don't you think the people of Ulster should decide who they should pledge their allegiance to?

Who are the "people" of [the truncated province of] "Ulster"? Are they all "protestant"? The British solution to local ethnic (often ill-perceived) problems was partition. It has been a catastrophic failure wherever it has been implemented (India, Palestine). The British decided, somewhat whimsically, to create a state for - what they saw as - the majority demographic of the north (this majority was limited to the counties of Down, Antrim and Derry iirc but that didn't matter). The British had always been reluctant to leave Ireland and sought to create tensions in order to achieve the desired outcome: that they may stay to provide 'order'.

What I find amusing about the view of the North that you and others share is your collective disregard for the realities of history. The greatest names in the struggle for Irish independence came mainly from the Protestant side (Wolfe Tone, Grattan, Parnell).

I support a united Ireland, anyone in their right mind would too.

 

[untethered]

I support a united Ireland, anyone in their right mind would too.

So you don't support the democratic will of the community?

Interesting. Most people in their right minds are keen on that sort of thing.

 

[nino_savatte]

So you don't support the democratic will of the community?

Interesting. Most people in their right minds are keen on that sort of thing.

Interesting how folk like you use words like "democracy" and will claim that we live in a "democracy" and that "democratic rights" should be respected. No one consulted the North's Catholic community in 1926 - did they? It wasn't very democratic to partition Ireland because a minority in the country wanted it - was it? The majority wanted independence from Britain.

Oh and what do you mean by "community"?

I also noticed how you ignored my point about Protestant involvement in the Irish Home Rule movement. Why? Doesn't it fit in with your narrative?

 

[untethered]

Interesting how folk like you use words like "democracy" and will claim that we live in a "democracy" and that "democratic rights" should be respected. No one consulted the North's Catholic community - did they? It wasn't very democratic to partition Ireland because a minority in the country wanted it - was it? The majority wanted independence from Britain.

So do you suggest we should repeat the errors of the past by doing the same thing now?

Oh and what do you mean by "community"?

The people that live there. I assumed this was obvious.

I also noticed how you ignored my point about Protestant involvement in the Irish Home Rule movement. Why? Doesn't it fit in with your narrative?

It's interesting but I fail to see how it has any bearing on where we go from here.

So, what's it to be? Democratic self-determination or Nino knows best?

 

[Poi E]

Just the one actually..

Introduction of proportional representation..

Absofuckinglutely.

 

[nino_savatte]

So do you suggest we should repeat the errors of the past by doing the same thing now?



The people that live there. I assumed this was obvious.



It's interesting but I fail to see how it has any bearing on where we go from here.

So, what's it to be? Democratic self-determination or Nino knows best?

Your definition of the word "community" is an exceptionally narrow one.

It's interesting but I fail to see how it has any bearing on where we go from here.

No, you wouldn't understand; it's far too complicated for your poor wee head.

So, what's it to be? Democratic self-determination or Nino knows best?

Explain how "democratic self determination" relates to the partition of Ireland. As for your last comment, I expected nothing less than a cheap shot. It was employed to cover for your lack of knowledge of Irish history.

 

[tbaldwin]

Yes but if anything were decided by referendums the idiots who would be making the decisions would be Rupert Murdoch and anyone who reads the Sun. I know which idiots I'd prefer...

Really? What idiots would you prefer then?

I put my faith in the idea that the majority of people are more likely to make the best decisions on what should be done for the majority than any minority.

 

[tbaldwin]

Nino, If you want a thread about the 6 or 9 counties start another thread thanks.

 

[untethered]

Explain how "democratic self determination" relates to the partition of Ireland. As for your last comment, I expected nothing less than a cheap shot. It was employed to cover for your lack of knowledge of Irish history.

My knowledge of Irish history is more than sufficient. However, while aware of that history, we need to deal with the political realities of 2007 rather than wish that we can effortlessly undo the deeds of previous generations as if the intervening years had not happened.

So I suppose I should ask one more time: Do you support a democratic vote on the future of Ulster in which all voters have the opportunity to make their voices heard, or just your own idiosyncratic brand of retrospective supposed political justice?

 

[tbaldwin]

Untethered Nino.....WRONG THREAD....Do one on Ireland please....

 

[Fruitloop]

Whither the neuter rule?

 

[CyberRose]

Really? What idiots would you prefer then?

I put my faith in the idea that the majority of people are more likely to make the best decisions on what should be done for the majority than any minority.

Then you're wrong, aren't you?

Eg: Lets have a referendum on whether we should pay any taxes. Hmmmm. Tough one to predict that innit! Yet the consequences for society would be devestating...

 

[untethered]

Eg: Lets have a referendum on whether we should pay any taxes. Hmmmm. Tough one to predict that innit! Yet the consequences for society would be devestating...

Many people would avoid paying tax if they could, but I doubt whether people would vote en masse to absolve everyone else of that responsibility too.

 

[CyberRose]

Many people would avoid paying tax if they could, but I doubt whether people would vote en masse to absolve everyone else of that responsibility too.

You reckon?! I have yet to see a pay day yet, anywhere I've worked, where people haven't complained about having to pay income tax!

But it's not just income tax, how many other issues would a referendum have disastrous consequences for? How about whether or not we should allow immigrants into the UK? Or how about whether or not we should pay jobseekers allowance? Or whether or not we should have the death penalty?

I'm afraid that most people are selfish and struggle to look beyond what will only effect themselves...

 

[nino_savatte]

Untethered Nino.....WRONG THREAD....Do one on Ireland please....

Piss off. Untethered brought up "Keep Britain British" or words to that effect. Perhaps you think that sort of thing shouldn't be challenged, given your nationalist impulses. Furthermore, the Irish were never consulted on their future in the 1920's, like how the Palestinians weren't consulted in the same decade.

 

[nino_savatte]

My knowledge of Irish history is more than sufficient. However, while aware of that history, we need to deal with the political realities of 2007 rather than wish that we can effortlessly undo the deeds of previous generations as if the intervening years had not happened.

So I suppose I should ask one more time: Do you support a democratic vote on the future of Ulster in which all voters have the opportunity to make their voices heard, or just your own idiosyncratic brand of retrospective supposed political justice?

I beg to differ, you don't seem to understand historical truths and seem to prefer a narrative to the truth. Therefore, your knowledge of Irish history is awhich comes to you from the State.

Your last paragraph is fairly typical. You can only view these things through the prism of your own ideological indoctrination. I find it amusing that you should use words like "democracy" when the rights of the majority of Irish were disregarded for the sake of a handful of refuseniks.

Co. Wicklow has a rather large Protestant enclave, none of them sought a union with Britain. Carson was born in Dublin btw.

 

[dash_two]

1. Multiple choice concerning the dole. (a) Keep it as it is. (b) Replace with Basic Income. (c) Replace with State labour scheme.

2. Multiple choice on immigration, as per KeyboardJockey's suggestion earlier.

3. One on closer EU integration.

4. Multiple choice on penal policy re. murderers: (a) Keep it as it is. (b) Life to mean life. (c) 'Symbolic death', eg lifetime banishment to bleak sub-Antarctic island. (d) Death penalty.

5. English parliament.

 

[Poi E]

4. Multiple choice on penal policy re. murderers: (a) Keep it as it is. (b) Life to mean life. (c) 'Symbolic death', eg lifetime banishment to bleak sub-Antarctic island. (d) Death penalty.

Why have a referendum on sentencing for murder? Do you think any of the alternatives you have proposed will reduce the incidence of murder?

 

[dash_two]

I don't believe behaviour modification should be the sole objective of justice. Not keen on the death penalty though, because of the risk of killing an innocent person.

 

[CyberRose]

Would anyone like to see a referendum to see whether we should implement a policy they don't agree with? Have people not just listed 5 policies they would like to see implemented?

 

[dash_two]

That's a good point. See also 'calling for a debate', eg if someone calls for a 'debate on immigration', this nearly always means they want less immigration.

 

[Poi E]

I don't believe behaviour modification should be the sole objective of justice. Not keen on the death penalty though, because of the risk of killing an innocent person.

So do you see that the government needs to check with the interested populace to see if those voters want to express their outrage through more novel means of punishment?

 

[dash_two]

I won't debate the matter with you on this thread. Start another one on the subject if you like, and I will try to address your concerns.

 

[lewislewis]

1. British jobs for British workers
2. Should Gordon Brown be sanctified?
3. The 'Great Briton' Awards Made Compulsory Viewing (Thatcher won the last lot)
4. Abolition of the Welsh Language
5. Merger of all national sporting teams in the British Isles into one British Team.