Times I despair of Brixton...

[ashtray]

What are you on about?

You said you didnt hear about any crimes in the US while you were away - they went on you just weren't aware of them like you are in Brixton.
This is like a 'what is the world coming to' thread - it's not just Brixton it's everywhere...like you expect Brixton to be unaffected...

 

[zoltan]

DB - You read Freakonomics ?

Its pretty good

It gives an interesting take on the NYC situation and the change in behaviour from the bad old 70/80's thro to what we have now - it does suggest its not all down to more plod and tougher penalties...but thats another topic I suppose

 

[Dan U]

it does suggest its not all down to more plod and tougher penalties...but thats another topic I suppose

that was a key component though?

lots of police on the streets, zero tolerance to crime & stop and searches coupled with an acceptance of the people for NY that the change had to be made for the cities good.

all thing's which would create something of a furore if implemented in Brixton.

 

[detective-boy]

IMO, anti-social behaviour happens cos we, collectively, let it happen and until we take collective action against it, it continues, simple as.

Precisely. It's all our responsibilities to always seek to do something, even if it's only trying to get a bit of a gang together to confront the behaviour - if no-one else wants to play, then so be it. And if anyone does stand up to be counted we should get up behind them.

(My bus scenario was exactly like yours by the way - lots of looking the other way until they had gone and then as I was walking back to sit down lots of "Oh, well done" ... followed by bemused looks as I responded "Some backing whilst it was happening would have been more fucking use!" - as you say it pisses you off (though I totally expected it))

 

[detective-boy]

And I was told that I was the *only* person that bothered to ring the police.

I'd have a little wager on the fact that more than one was filming it on their phone in case it turned out to be a murder and Sky were running round with a fucking chequebook ...

 

[detective-boy]

tbh if dibble out their car's and on to the streets a bit more would be a start - and i don't just mean the odd saunter up the high street in groups of 3 causing the street dealers etc to dissapear for 5 minutes.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as it sounds - to do this in any significant way, certainly at busy times, would have a big impact on response times and they are bad enough already. There simply aren't enough coppers on response / patrol duties. Some of it could be addressed by looking at where they are deployed but not, I suspect, anywhere near enough.

 

[detective-boy]

DB - You read Freakonomics ?

I haven't, no. Don't get a lot of time to read much at all in depth at the moment.

 

[tarannau]

i don't think there's any more anti-social behaviour in general it's just that the nature of that behaviour has changed.

is there now an acceptance that things really are worse and "something must be done"

I actually agree - it's more the chupstiness and blatant defiance of some of the little shits that stands out now. I wasn't a little angel, but I'd like to think I had far more consideration for others than some of the little gobshites that seem so prominent on the streets today.

I'm not sure it is much worse. For me personally, I witnessed far more violence back 10-15 years ago, with more of my friends hurt, mugged or distressed back then. Perhaps I was more often out then, perhaps I was just younger and moving in different circles, but Brixton felt like it had far more of an 'edge' and was more of a divided community back then. Compared to the peril of the 7-11 by the tube station for example, Sainsbury's Local today is a hell of a lot less lawless and wild west in feel. I can even walk near a policeman without the fear they're going to pull you over these days.

My gut feel is that it's the chances of an 'average joe' getting seriously assaulted or injured are about the same as they have always been in Brixton, declining if anything. I also think we're less tolerant than we have been of others, a factor not helped by the the guileless rudeness of many of the kids so noticeable. And I also suspect that 'criminals' and gangs are far more ruthless to each other than they ever were in my day. All that conspires to make things perhaps feel worse than they actually are in Brixton.

 

[editor]

i don't think there's any more anti-social behaviour in general it's just that the nature of that behaviour has changed.

There is *definitely* more anti-social behaviour in my area.

 

[Dan U]

Unfortunately it's not as simple as it sounds - to do this in any significant way, certainly at busy times, would have a big impact on response times and they are bad enough already. There simply aren't enough coppers on response / patrol duties. Some of it could be addressed by looking at where they are deployed but not, I suspect, anywhere near enough.

I do understand that and am sympathetic to the pressure's put on the police. There does seem to me, purely as a personal observation, that there is a huge disparity between foot patrolling police in Zone 1 and the rest of London.

There are obviously reasons for this other than the simple street crime problems but i am sure there are knock on benefits to other crime rates of these patrol's.

But more police on the streets, searching more people, making more arrests for anti-social behaviour brings a whole host of other issues in an area like Brixton (and much of London in general).

Its a quandry.

 

[editor]

But more police on the streets, searching more people, making more arrests for anti-social behaviour brings a whole host of other issues in an area like Brixton (and much of London in general).

A couple of relaxed cops trudging what's rapidly turning into a 'shooting alley' along Coldharbour Lane would suit me fine.

 

[Dan U]

A couple of relaxed cops trudging what's rapidly turning into a 'shooting alley' along Coldharbour Lane would suit me fine.

it would suit me fine too - but that is just one area, the problem would move.

the amount of times i stand at the bus stop outside Iceland and see them ignore the street dealers makes me sometimes.

all part of the same wider problem isn't it.

 

[editor]

it would suit me fine too - but that is just one area, the problem would move.

Well, it would be nice for someone else to take their turn with the hassle, no? I reckon this area deserves a break.

*pushes undesirables and ne'er do wells in direction of Cla'am.

 

[tarannau]

Sadly my experience of Police crackdowns is that, unless there serious resources dedicated, it's more likely to push the undesirables from the Barrier Block just down the road, rather than all the way to Clapham.

And I really don't trust the police enough to suggest that they should swamp the area and make a big public display. We've come along way from the times of the sus laws, but I don't think many locals would credit the average copper with enough sensitivity, insight into the area and impartiality to effectively crack down on antisocial behaviour without causing a lot of ill feeling.

 

[Dan U]

Well, it would be nice for someone else to take their turn with the hassle, no? I reckon this area deserves a break.

*pushes undesirables and ne'er do wells in direction of Cla'am.

maybe we could have a whip round for a mini bus a couple of nights a week? run a shuttle bus to Lavender Hill for a few hours a night

 

[tarannau]

maybe we could have a whip round for a mini bus a couple of nights a week? run a shuttle bus to Lavender Hill for a few hours a night

Nah. One of the best things you can do is to block all traffic, tubes and trains from Camden.

Aside from the fact that it'll stop some of those Northern numpties crossing the barrier, I'm always amazed just how many of the more chaotic and unpleasant street characters make repeated trips between Camden and Brixton. It's like the fuckhead highway...

 

[Dan U]

Nah. One of the best things you can do is to block all traffic, tubes and trains from Camden.

Aside from the fact that it'll stop some of those Northern numpties crossing the barrier, I'm always amazed just how many of the more chaotic and unpleasant street characters make repeated trips between Camden and Brixton. It's like the fuckhead highway...

i see a few same faces in Highbury and Islington where i work too.

 

[detective-boy]

A couple of relaxed cops trudging what's rapidly turning into a 'shooting alley' along Coldharbour Lane would suit me fine.

Unfortunately, to ensure you had at least a reasonable chance of a couple of them on the street for most of the day, every day, you'd need about 16 or 24 (i.e. two or three pairs on Early, Late and Night shift and rest day) - this would allow for absences (sickness, court, leave) and, more importantly, the fact that a couple of coppers patrolling Coldharbour Lane are likely to have nicked someone and be off the street dealing with them (for several hours) within a few minutes of starting.

 

[detective-boy]

We've come along way from the times of the sus laws, but I don't think many locals would credit the average copper with enough sensitivity, insight into the area and impartiality to effectively crack down on antisocial behaviour without causing a lot of ill feeling.

I don;t think you can do them both simultaneously. You can't "crack down on antisocial behaviour" without:

(a) stopping and questioning / searching people
(b) arresting people
(c) ending up with "loud" arrests when people resist

You can be as "sensitive" as you like but if you are saying "What" and "No" then some people being dealt with will turn out to be innocent (unless you are intending on issuing the coppers with a sixth sense kit) and some of them (guilty or innocent) will kick off.

I'm afraid any "crackdown" will cause friction.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

That's the problem with doing it piecemeal - it will only work if it is done across the whole of London.

And by "vastly increase" I mean sort of double or treble the number of officers - unfortunately that will not happen here because they have spent a vast fortune on CSOs (for which we could have got 60% as many fully-trained, equipped and empowered cops) who are pretty powerless and are now routinely taunted by the very yobs causing the problem who know perfectly well ...

Well, CSOs CAN make a difference.....on the number 3 bus I get home from work there has been a massive problem with a small section of pupils from Lilian Bayliss School (about 15 to 20 boys that look to be Year 8 or 9). Today two CSOs got on and went upstairs and then it went very quiet and calm....the CSOs practically got a standing ovation........

 

[editor]

I see it's business as usual right now, with the little street scrotes hurling bottles at the Food & Wine store, forcing the shopkeepers to lock themselves inside.

 

[superkev]

I see it's business as usual right now, with the little street scrotes hurling bottles at the Food & Wine store, forcing the shopkeepers to lock themselves inside.

To be honest, at least one of those foodstores has the wife behind the counter screeching instructions to her husband "one at a time, one at a time"....

And this is true; one week all young people aged 10-17 are banned from 3-5 - then they don't tell the school (who they've asked for help to discourage kids from going there), but let them back in so the kids are allowed in 2 at a time but are screeched at.... (presumably because 50 kids a day is equal to £250 a week)

I witnessed this. Kids treated like shit. If it was me, I'd feel bitter - any wonder they get 'mistreated' by hoodies.... they should start to treat young people as normal human beings.

 

[superkev]

or ban them and accept they lose that £250 ish trade. They seem unwilling to do that either.

 

[Mr Retro]

Unfortunately, to ensure you had at least a reasonable chance of a couple of them on the street for most of the day, every day, you'd need about 16 or 24 (i.e. two or three pairs on Early, Late and Night shift and rest day) - this would allow for absences (sickness, court, leave) and, more importantly, the fact that a couple of coppers patrolling Coldharbour Lane are likely to have nicked someone and be off the street dealing with them (for several hours) within a few minutes of starting.

I know you don't mean it, but to me what I extract from the above is it's almost impossible to police the area, therefore so we won't, therefore you have to put up with it

 

[editor]

or ban them and accept they lose that £250 ish trade. They seem unwilling to do that either.

And exactly how do they enforce this 'ban' dear 'new' poster? Armed guards on the door? Burly shop staff?

 

[editor]

I witnessed this. Kids treated like shit. If it was me, I'd feel bitter - any wonder they get 'mistreated' by hoodies.... they should start to treat young people as normal human beings.

You're talking about a completely different situation to what goes on over my road.

These poor poor kids hang around all day, regularly go in and try and steal stuff, hurl racist and homophobic abuse at the staff, and when they're bored with that, go back to lobbing bottles at their windows from across the street.

Like they did a minute ago

 

[Mr Retro]

Just properly caught up with the thread.

To respond to DB and Han what you did on the bus and with the lady was right and brave. But it's different to going outside your house to a group and telling them to 'knock it off'. You just can't do that these days. You become a target and you are fucked.

The fuck-off-out-of-here-or-I'll-kick-you-in-the-arse days are long gone.

 

[editor]

The fuck-off-out-of-here-or-I'll-kick-you-in-the-arse days are long gone.

Too true, sadly.

The second you make a stand in your neighbourhood, you become their new target numero uno and they know that there's fuck all you can do.

You can't give them an old fashioned 'cut it out' clip around the ear, other adults won't back you up if you confront them in the street, their parents clearly don't give a fuck and the kids know that they're too young for the law to have any meaningful impact on their activities.

 

[DRINK?]

Unfortunately, to ensure you had at least a reasonable chance of a couple of them on the street for most of the day, every day, you'd need about 16 or 24 (i.e. two or three pairs on Early, Late and Night shift and rest day) - this would allow for absences (sickness, court, leave) and, more importantly, the fact that a couple of coppers patrolling Coldharbour Lane are likely to have nicked someone and be off the street dealing with them (for several hours) within a few minutes of starting.

Maybe if they didn't have at least 12 regularly at Battersea Park / Peckham Rye station checking tickets they could do something useful

 

[Jonti]

Mrs Magpie is right, I think, that CSO's *can* make a difference. I live the other side of Ed's estate, on Railton Road, and we've had intermittent outbreaks of the same sort of trouble, albeit at a *much* lower intensity. But the summer passed off without major hassle (only a few instances of kids and teens terrorising residents with bottle-throwing or vehicles with stones), thanks, I think to the activities of the CSOs.

Thing is, there need be no mystery about who these kids are, and who is responsible (in law) for them. They are children, after all, that people see going to school and coming in and out of their homes. Once folk understand that the kid's lives are *not* going to be ruined (eg by a criminal record, or by being caught up in the Courts system generally) then they are generally OK-ish about trying to keep the kids out of trouble. Even crims don't always want kids to go down the same path as themselves. That's a losers' game, innit.

So the fact that the same old shit continues to go down on the same, relatively small part of Coldharbour Lane speaks volumes. Either the message is not getting through that CSOs have a mission to keep kids out of trouble; out of the Courts; and ultimately, out of jail. Or (possibly as a consequence of a failure to get that message across) the kids are not being identified; or the visits to the parents' homes are not being made; or effective help is not being offered. It's possible some of the kids come from hard-core criminal families, which does makes intervention rather difficult. But I doubt very much that is true of them all.

And it's no joke. Little shits out of control grow up to be big shits out of control. Kids stoning a shop show older folk that the coast is clear for other, even more violent fuckries. We just don't need that -- and the kids could do a lot better for themselves than to grow into depraved predators, and cannon fodder for the prisons.

Somerleyton Estate and the surrounding area is one of the nastiest, crime-ridden places in England. But it does not have to stay that way.