Times I despair of Brixton...

[clandestino]

I can't remember the last time I struck up a conversation with a stranger on the tube in London, but this happened several times while I was in Berlin and they weren't raving lunatics either.

This is probably off topic slightly, but one of the things that I like about living in London is that I don't strike up conversations with strangers on the tube - I'm left alone to listen to music/read the paper/whatever. I don't want to talk to strangers on public transport, I just want to look out of the window if I'm on a bus, or read my paper/stare into space if I'm on the tube. I don't know - maybe I've been warped by two decades of city life, but it's one of the great things about London - you have anonymity and freedom.

 

[Thora]

I don't think anyone's tried to strike up a conversation with me on public transport, not even nutters - Reno must look particularly approachable

 

[editor]

This is probably off topic slightly, but one of the things that I like about living in London is that I don't strike up conversations with strangers on the tube - I'm left alone to listen to music/read the paper/whatever. .

New Yorkers used to be famous for their rudeness, but I've got to say they're turning into a model of politeness compared to many Londoners I've met.

Sure, all that "have a nice day" bollocks is toe curling stuff but I'd think I'd prefer some half-arsed attempt at courtesies compared to the ton of att-i-tude that greets me in many shops.

I found people left me alone in NY just as much as over here, but were far more open to chatting if I said hello (but then that might just be my quaint Britisher accent or something).

 

[editor]

I don't think anyone's tried to strike up a conversation with me on public transport, not even nutters

When I was on the top deck of the WTC in 1987 I had some absolute nutter come up to me and babble on about drugs while I was trying to take in the view. It certainly made for an interesting experience.

 

[Reno]

This is probably off topic slightly, but one of the things that I like about living in London is that I don't strike up conversations with strangers on the tube - I'm left alone to listen to music/read the paper/whatever. I don't want to talk to strangers on public transport, I just want to look out of the window if I'm on a bus, or read my paper/stare into space if I'm on the tube. I don't know - maybe I've been warped by two decades of city life, but it's one of the great things about London - you have anonymity and freedom.

I also like the anonymity of a big city like London, but then again I don't mind the occasional bit of friendly human contact between strangers, especially in a time when manners in London have gone into such a steep decline. Doesn't mean you loose your freedom. I'm making an effort to get to know my neighbours, which I never have before. As I get older a sense of community seems to get more important to me.

I don't think anyone's tried to strike up a conversation with me on public transport, not even nutters - Reno must look particularly approachable

Maybe that's the vibe people give off when you're in a different place. If I moved to Berlin (which I am considering), I'll probably get mugged on my first day.

 

[prunus]

Interesting. Mind you even the manchester figure is frightenly high when you consider that is one year. So in a decade you've a 25% risk of becoming a victim. In London it's over a third.

OK in practice in might not be as high as that because some of the crime will be 'bad guys on bad guys' but in the four or five years I've been lurking here it seems there hasn't been a single regular London-based urbanite that hasn't been a victim of crime, much of it violent.

Much as I like the capital I'll stick to my smaller city I think. (touches wood and hopes the streets up here stay safe, despite the drugs/vandalism/burglary problems any city faces)

Not quite - It's about 22.5% and 30% respectively - may seem a quibble but that's 10% safer.

 

[clandestino]

I also like the anonymity of a big city like London, but then again I don't mind the occasional bit of friendly human contact between strangers, especially in a time when manners in London have gone into such a steep decline. Doesn't mean you loose your freedom. I'm making an effort to get to know my neighbours, which I never have before. As I get older a sense of community seems to get more important to me.

Oh, me too. I know my neighbours too, and I'm very glad that I do. And the odd bit of random friendly human contact in the queue at Lidl, say (where I always seem to end up chatting to someone), is great - puts a spring in the step of your day. But I hate this notion that people should chat to each other on the tube, and it's indicative of an unfriendly city if they don't. I happen to think London is a perfectly friendly city - precisely because it's one that respects privacy and boundaries.

 

[Winot]

Let's not despair about Brixton quite yet. It's no different from any other inner city area in London - people drink and get into fights. And tragically they often use knives these days, hence the stabbing in Somerleyton Road last week and the one outside the Rounded Oak in Tooting early on Saturday morning.

I did a quick search of the news agency wire services this morning and as well as these found a stabbing in Gloucester last Wednesday, a thirteen year old boy charged with attempted murder after a man was stabbed after getting into an argument with a group of youths in East Lothian (that was earlier in the month), and a lot of court related stabbing stories. It's a national problem.

(I also discovered that a teenager who stabbed a Barnsley milkman to death had his sentence reduced at the appeal court this week, as he was a cannabis user with a history of schizophrenia in his family. But that's a whole other thread.)

But we have to accept that living in London exposes us to greater levels of risk.The British Crime Survey for 2005/6 finds:


That compares to living in Greater Manchester where it's around 25 offences per 1000 of us.

Even though I've been a victim of violent crime within Brixton, I still think living here is worth the danger, and millions agree. Apart from the fact it's where the jobs are in my industry, it's an exciting place to live; theatres, restaurants, things occurring (and not just stabbings). You just have to take the rough with the smooth.

As for Brixton people, this area suffers from a high level of deprivation. For example, I can't believe the under provision of schools here, ten years after a Labour government arrived in power with an 'education education education' mantra.

PK refers to the drug problem and implies it's an accelerant for crime, which it is, but it's a tad more complex than that.

People under pressure make poor choices sometimes, but people here aren't all bad; we were only talking this week about how folk looked after my gf when she nearly collapsed outside a shop on Atlantic Road.

It's been a bad weekend for sure, but we've seen worse and we hang on regardless for reasons that seem obvious when you reflect on them.

Excellent post - agree completely.

As for strangers talking to you in London - there's a huge change if you have children. Happens all the time now.

 

[clandestino]

Yes, I've noticed that since becoming a father. Most of it is nice, but every so often you do get a busy-body granma who wants to stick her nose in with a comment at the worst time - usually when the little fella's bawling his lungs out. Um, yes, I can hear him crying actually. Thanks for pointing that out.

God, I'm sounding like a right misanthrope today.

 

[suzee blue cheese]

precisely because it's one that respects privacy and boundaries.

I get what you mean in one sense.. But the other side of that 'privacy and boundaries' thing is the way we can all look away from the person sitting next to us crying their heart out on the Tube platform. The person lying comatose at the bus stop, in a pool of their own fluids.

Dead or alive?

Do we care? Really?

Just another cardboard cut out moment. Not me, not mine.

 

[ChrisSouth]

So I come back from two weeks' hassle free, hustle-free, anti-social-behaviour-free holiday in New York City, Brooklyn, Greenpoint and Philly. And I don't mean the touristy bits.

And here's what I wake up to on my first day back, almost outside my front door:


And when I came home tonight after PROD I see not one, but two fairly major incidents within 100m of my block happening within minutes of each other.

The first is a mass brawl spilling out of the Brixton Social Club (or whatever it's called), with youths blocking the road, running up the street attacking each other and lobbing the inevitable bottles.

And then I see some bloke staggering outside My Father's Place, apparently a victim of a 'serious assault.' The scene is now cordoned off with police tape.

When will this violent bullshit end?

We don't tread this planet lightly - aren't they tourist places, by the very fact that you're a tourist, so they become tourist places?

I'm not sure that New York in particular, and the US in general, should necessarily by heralded as the place to live. Sure, New York's very different from how it was in the late 1980s (having first been there in 1987), and sure there's now very nice parts of Manhattan, and yes, the Lower East Side is less intimidating than it once was, but I think you'll find that most people would argue that's because Bloomberg and Giuliani before him have pushed the problem out of Metropolitan New York, rather than dealing with it. There's also the issue of gentrification and the selling off of social housing to private developers, such as the 11,000+ apartments in Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village. Is this what's being advocated in Brixton?

And I prefer the policing tactics we have in Brixton -
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/n...8a1c9eab24ced4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

 

[clandestino]

I get what you mean in one sense.. But the other side of that 'privacy and boundaries' thing is the way we can all look away from the person sitting next to us crying their heart out on the Tube platform. The person lying comatose at the bus stop, in a pool of their own fluids.

Dead or alive?

Do we care? Really?

Just another cardboard cut out moment. Not me, not mine.

Yes, good point. I'd like to think I'd help if I could, but I'm probably guilty of looking away at times.

 

[detective-boy]

I can't get over how safe the once ruddy-terrifying streets of the Lower East Side/Alphabet City in New York have become.

.....

Of course, there's some fucking awful gentrification going on in some areas of New York/Brooklyn which is rapidly clearing the area of any non-rich folk, but I didn't see any of the hoodie-tastic anti-social goings on that we've all grown used to here.

There is no major secret to the change in street scenery in NY. Any study of it's policing (in a wider sense, meaning the control of order by any number of authorities not just the actual "police") will demonstrate that it has been brought about by a combination of:

1. Vastly improved numbers of active officers / officials
2. Re-focus of the activities of those officials to make them far more interventionist
3. For want of a better description, a "zero-tolerance" of minor issues (on the basis of the Broken Windows thoery which effectivley says that the context in which people live moves their behaviour to suit and so a little tag, left unwhitewashed, becomes a neighbourhood entirely defaced by graffitti).
4. Significantly increased penalities for minor offences

I have read in various articles in various media (no links) of how this has managed to make a step change in the "feel" of the streets but that the cost has been increased harassment / criminalisation of those at the lower end of the social scale.

Not sure if we could import the good bits without the bad bits.

 

[han]

I get what you mean in one sense.. But the other side of that 'privacy and boundaries' thing is the way we can all look away from the person sitting next to us crying their heart out on the Tube platform. The person lying comatose at the bus stop, in a pool of their own fluids.

Dead or alive?

Do we care? Really?

Just another cardboard cut out moment. Not me, not mine.

Yes this 'ignoring people who are ill or in danger' thing is a real problem in big cities - and it doesn't happen v much in the countryside or in small towns (eg. where I grew up, if there is someone rolling around on the floor, puking, someone will always help). I think it's a) people being attacked or being very ill in public is much rarer, whereas here it happens alot and b) people in big cities are afraid that if they intervene they themselves will get hurt.

When I was coming home from the bookgroup xmas dinner last week I saw this drunk homeless woman rolling around on the floor trying to get up, and everyone was just walking past her...I couldn't believe it. Anyway I help her to get up and walk her towards the hostel where she was trying to get to, and as I was helping her up, a load of kids come by and start laughing and filming her with their phones. Anyway when I got to the tube I saw them and confronted them about how sick and unkind their behaviour was, perhaps I was taking a big risk of getting stabbed or something but I just wanted them to see. Amazingly, the girls in the group apologised, so it made me realise it really is worth intervening sometimes.

I know we hear loads of horror stories about people getting hurt when they intervene on anti social behaviour, but it's still important that we do it, otherwise, inevitably, it will become accepted as the norm.

As for the violence on Brixton streets, I agree with Hendo that it's pretty complex, but basically comes down to 1) bad/absent parenting 2) poverty 3) lack of opportunity/education, in that order.

I think if people are parented badly, or not parented at all, or shown any love/care by adults, then generally they really are fucked. But if you live in poverty, with few educational opportunites, but have a loving parental figure, you will be ok.

Sometimes I think of moving away from London and going to live somewhere nice and safe and green, but let's face it, violent crime happens everywhere. And still, I think the good sides of London outweigh the bad, for me, which is why I am still here. If/when that changes, I shall move!

There are always good, heartening things, random acts of kindness, which we see happening on the streets, that restore our faith in human nature.

And it's up to us to make them happen!

 

[editor]

1. Vastly improved numbers of active officers / officials

It'll probably only shift the crime elsewhere, but I reckon a couple of coppers pounding the stretch of Coldharbour Lane from Moorlands Road to Atlantic Rd would make a huge difference.

Surely there's been enough murders/stabbings/shooting incidents/anti social behaviour on this short stretch to justify it?

 

[goldman]

I can't get over how safe the once ruddy-terrifying streets of the Lower East Side/Alphabet City in New York have become.

When I was working over there I would quite literally get more hassle in the short walk home from Brixton tube station than my entire time away.

Of course, there's some fucking awful gentrification going on in some areas of New York/Brooklyn which is rapidly clearing the area of any non-rich folk, but I didn't see any of the hoodie-tastic anti-social goings on that we've all grown used to here.

(*I'm not saying that the US is some sort of crime free nirvana by the way because it's got some dreadful problems in some areas, but comparable streets in NYC/Brooklyn sure felt a lot, lot safer than London).

Zero tolerance policy - start by getting rid of broken windows, graffiti, that sort of thing. Improve the environment in which crime traditionally takes place and eventually the crime rate itself drops off. They've been doing the same thing with some degree of success in Manchester.

 

[detective-boy]

It'll probably only shift the crime elsewhere, but I reckon a couple of coppers pounding the stretch of Coldharbour Lane from Moorlands Road to Atlantic Rd would make a huge difference.

That's the problem with doing it piecemeal - it will only work if it is done across the whole of London.

And by "vastly increase" I mean sort of double or treble the number of officers - unfortunately that will not happen here because they have spent a vast fortune on CSOs (for which we could have got 60% as many fully-trained, equipped and empowered cops) who are pretty powerless and are now routinely taunted by the very yobs causing the problem who know perfectly well ...

 

[detective-boy]

Anyway when I got to the tube I saw them and confronted them about how sick and unkind their behaviour was, perhaps I was taking a big risk of getting stabbed or something but I just wanted them to see. Amazingly, the girls in the group apologised, so it made me realise it really is worth intervening sometimes.

Usually, in fact.

It is a very, very small minority of cases where people intervene and get attacked physically but they get vastly disproportionate coverage.

A couple of weeks ago half a dozen semi-drunk teenagers were harassing a bus driver on the bus I was on - one in particular started to get more and more aggressive as the driver turned the engine off to signal he wasn't going anywhere if they didn't get off and started (somewhat more ostentatiously than was wise, I thought ) radioing for help. I stood up and intervened and basically shepherded them off the bus and, as I did, at least two or three of the others in the group (being quiet, hanging round at the back) grabbed the loud one and did the "It ain;t worth it" bit). There are often some good (or at least better) eggs in every groups who are equally embarassed by the behaviour of their mates.

I would always recommend caution if you are alone, unless you have had some training / experience in dealing with conflict because you are vulnerable ... but often we are in groups who could act together and do a "Flight 93".

Let's roll!!

 

[poster342002]

it comes and goes i think. hopefully it'll pass.

I think this used to be the case. However, i't's been consistantly bad since around 1999 onwards, imo, when things seemed to take a sudden nosedive - and I can't see it improving anytime soon.

 

[poster342002]

I reckon a couple of coppers pounding the stretch of Coldharbour Lane from Moorlands Road to Atlantic Rd would make a huge difference.

Aye. And doing so beyond 17:00 at night would help, too.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Usually, in fact.

It is a very, very small minority of cases where people intervene and get attacked physically but they get vastly disproportionate coverage.
<snip>
I would always recommend caution if you are alone, unless you have had some training / experience in dealing with conflict because you are vulnerable ... but often we are in groups who could act together and do a "Flight 93".

Let's roll!!

The problem is, ime, that when you do intervene and then look to other people for assistance or at least attention to what is going on, they look the other way in a 'nothing to do with me' style. Really pisses me off cos I would generally get involved to help people out but the lack of solidarity from other people can be soul destroying.

I had a bus incident as well, with yout mucking about with a woman in front of them, i told them to leave it out, so then they started giving it back to me big time verbally. I stared at the main protagonist and made it clear they weren't going to intimidate me, the woman in question said 'oh leave it, it's not worth it' upon which they started hassling her again

I again made it clear that they should stop, luckily their stop arrived but as they were getting off, there was lots of fingers across throats and 'we'll cut you up blud'. Now, if any other passenger (the bus was packed) had also told these lads to desist, I can't see the situation would have gotten to the point it did. But every other single passenger looked the other way or stuck their head in a newspaper. IMO, anti-social behaviour happens cos we, collectively, let it happen and until we take collective action against it, it continues, simple as.

 

[editor]

Someone was getting the fuck beaten out of him behind my block. Three guys on to one. It went on for ages. As soon as I realised what was going on, I called the police.

Loads of residents were looking over their balconies as the guy lay in agony and the thugs ran off.

And I was told that I was the *only* person that bothered to ring the police.

 

[Pie 1]

It's been a bad weekend for sure, but we've seen worse and we hang on regardless for reasons that seem obvious when you reflect on them.

There do seem to be small periods of the year when Brixton just seems to be that extra bit more itchy & scratchy than usual, Xmas being one of them. (1st hot spell of summer tends to have the same effect too).

 

[kyser_soze]

Thing is the kind of policing that Giuliani introduced that made NY as safe as it is today would have everyone on this board up in arms - as dectective-boy said, the concentration was on really hammering minor offences such as tagging, vandalism, litter etc and focussing serious drug related crime into one or two areas.

But policing in NY is really hardcore - it would work in London, but as I said, most people on this board would be up in arms about the method used to achieve it.

 

[ashtray]

Why is anyone surprised at this?
Do you all live in some kind of bubble that forgets about the history of places in London like Brixton?
You forget the past, you romantisise the place you live, you're shocked and horrified that people are commiting crime in your little bit of London?

 

[editor]

You forget the past, you romantisise the place you live, you're shocked and horrified that people are commiting crime in your little bit of London?

I don't romanticise Brixton at all, but I've lived here long enough to comment on how things are changing.

How about you?

 

[ashtray]

I don't romanticise Brixton at all, but I've lived here long enough to comment on how things are changing.

How about you?

See I'd say the opposite - I'd say the Brixton I know is the same as it has always been? There's rules you follow to guarantee your safety. (This goes for where I live now in Bermondsey too)
I'd also wager you just didnt hear about the crimes while you were away, not that they didnt go on.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

you're shocked and horrified that people are commiting crime in your little bit of London?

don't think anyone is shocked and horrified that people are commiting crime here. We're used to muggings/burglaries etc. but when people are getting stabbed and shot every day... that wasn't happening when Brixton was rioting in 1982 or 1985

 

[editor]

See I'd say the opposite - I'd say the Brixton I know is the same as it has always been?

No, it's most certainly changed over the years. There's been far more anti-social behaviour by kids in the last couple of years, for example.

There's rules you follow to guarantee your safety.

Gosh, Really?!

I'd also wager you just didnt hear about the crimes while you were away, not that they didnt go on.

What are you on about?

 

[Dan U]

No, it's most certainly changed over the years. There's been far more anti-social behaviour by kids in the last couple of years, for example.

i don't think there's any more anti-social behaviour in general it's just that the nature of that behaviour has changed.

the willingness to resort to extreme violence over stupid petty reasons being one example.

tbh if dibble out their car's and on to the streets a bit more would be a start - and i don't just mean the odd saunter up the high street in groups of 3 causing the street dealers etc to dissapear for 5 minutes.

also i find this thread a wee bit contrary, often posters are lambasted for overplaying the levels of violence etc in Brixton and accused of playing up to media stereotypes.

is there now an acceptance that things really are worse and "something must be done"