Times I despair of Brixton...

[editor]

So I come back from two weeks' hassle free, hustle-free, anti-social-behaviour-free holiday in New York City, Brooklyn, Greenpoint and Philly. And I don't mean the touristy bits.

And here's what I wake up to on my first day back, almost outside my front door:

And when I came home tonight after PROD I see not one, but two fairly major incidents within 100m of my block happening within minutes of each other.

The first is a mass brawl spilling out of the Brixton Social Club (or whatever it's called), with youths blocking the road, running up the street attacking each other and lobbing the inevitable bottles.

And then I see some bloke staggering outside My Father's Place, apparently a victim of a 'serious assault.' The scene is now cordoned off with police tape.

When will this violent bullshit end?

 

[netbob]

all pretty depressing

 

[editor]

It's definitely got a lot, lot worse recently.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/shooting-boards.html

 

[editor]

Here's the taped off scene, complete with paramedic ambulance.

 

[girasol]

I always feel a bit like I've had a lucky escape whenever I walk home alone, but I always make sure I have some sort of weapon on me, tonight I had three of the PRoD fanzines rolled up tight in my hand, just in case!

I don't quite understand why there's so much violence around, it must be part of the human condition...

 

[citydreams]

I don't quite understand why there's so much violence around, it must be part of the human condition...

More like a lack of humanity.

Has anyone noticed the increased police presence? At the last Brixton Forum the council said we'd have another 10 bobbies for the xmas period.

 

[pk]

I don't quite understand why there's so much violence around, it must be part of the human condition...

I think it's more to do with crack cocaine.

 

[Jessiedog]

I don't quite understand why there's so much violence around, it must be part of the human condition...

pk may be right, 'cos it's certainly not a part of the human condition.

I live in a city roughly the size and population as London and the level of violent street crime or even general, public violence, is virtually zero.

The main difference between here and London seems to be that London is far more racially diverse and I don't think the violence in London can all be ascribed to racial tension.

It's very sad, and frightning, to hear of the high incidence of violent crime in London - and in particular the use of firearms.



Woof

 

[Yossarian]

I think a lot of the difference in levels of violence between Hong Kong and London can be explained by the relative merits of organised crime versus disorganised crime…

 

[detective-boy]

I think a lot of the difference in levels of violence between Hong Kong and London can be explained by the relative merits of organised crime versus disorganised crime…

When I dealt with armed robbers, the organised ones were certainly a damn sight less dangerous to the public at large than the disorganised / chaotic ones. The latter were far less likely to have thought through the "what ifs ... " and, if something unexpected happened (like someone they were pointing a gun at saying no), then they were far, far more likely to shoot them.

If there was something which the chaotic ones shared, it was significant drug use (as opposed to significant large-scale drug sale which tended to be something the organised ones were or became involved in).

 

[ELO]

I think a lot of the difference in levels of violence between Hong Kong and London can be explained by the relative merits of organised crime versus disorganised crime…

Surely one is feeding the other, though, as Detective Boy implies.-ie the organised crime syndicates based in SE asia are responsible for the drugs which cause so much random violent crime in the west.

 

[hendo]

Let's not despair about Brixton quite yet. It's no different from any other inner city area in London - people drink and get into fights. And tragically they often use knives these days, hence the stabbing in Somerleyton Road last week and the one outside the Rounded Oak in Tooting early on Saturday morning.

I did a quick search of the news agency wire services this morning and as well as these found a stabbing in Gloucester last Wednesday, a thirteen year old boy charged with attempted murder after a man was stabbed after getting into an argument with a group of youths in East Lothian (that was earlier in the month), and a lot of court related stabbing stories. It's a national problem.

(I also discovered that a teenager who stabbed a Barnsley milkman to death had his sentence reduced at the appeal court this week, as he was a cannabis user with a history of schizophrenia in his family. But that's a whole other thread.)

But we have to accept that living in London exposes us to greater levels of risk.The British Crime Survey for 2005/6 finds:

Just over 20 per cent of recorded violent crime was in the London region where the rates of recorded violent crime were highest at 34 offences per 1,000 population.

That compares to living in Greater Manchester where it's around 25 offences per 1000 of us.

Even though I've been a victim of violent crime within Brixton, I still think living here is worth the danger, and millions agree. Apart from the fact it's where the jobs are in my industry, it's an exciting place to live; theatres, restaurants, things occurring (and not just stabbings). You just have to take the rough with the smooth.

As for Brixton people, this area suffers from a high level of deprivation. For example, I can't believe the under provision of schools here, ten years after a Labour government arrived in power with an 'education education education' mantra.

PK refers to the drug problem and implies it's an accelerant for crime, which it is, but it's a tad more complex than that.

People under pressure make poor choices sometimes, but people here aren't all bad; we were only talking this week about how folk looked after my gf when she nearly collapsed outside a shop on Atlantic Road.

It's been a bad weekend for sure, but we've seen worse and we hang on regardless for reasons that seem obvious when you reflect on them.

 

[ELO]

But we have to accept that living in London exposes us to greater levels of risk.The British Crime Survey for 2005/6 finds:

(violent crime of 34/1000)

That compares to living in Greater Manchester where it's around 25 offences per 1000 of us.

Interesting. Mind you even the manchester figure is frightenly high when you consider that is one year. So in a decade you've a 25% risk of becoming a victim. In London it's over a third.

OK in practice in might not be as high as that because some of the crime will be 'bad guys on bad guys' but in the four or five years I've been lurking here it seems there hasn't been a single regular London-based urbanite that hasn't been a victim of crime, much of it violent.

Much as I like the capital I'll stick to my smaller city I think. (touches wood and hopes the streets up here stay safe, despite the drugs/vandalism/burglary problems any city faces)

 

[editor]

Just to wrap up the evening's events, I was treated to a police helicopter hovering overhead at 7am.

What's really changed in the 12 years I've been here is the amount of anti social behaviour by t'yoot, who seem to have carte blanche to do whatever they like.

The shops opposite are virtually under siege from these oiks, bottles are lobbed around the place more or less every night, and it's quite common to see kids as young as 10 up to no good at 2am.

 

[waverunner]

It's not just Brixton. Before I came out to PRoD last night there'd been some sort of gang fight there was so much broken glass on the street it was ridiculous and the idiots were still hanging about. What a pleasure walking between 2 gangs late at night on a dark street. It seems to be everywhere though.. this overspill of violence. Surely it's got to come to a head soon

 

[militant atheist]

Interesting. Mind you even the manchester figure is frightenly high when you consider that is one year. So in a decade you've a 25% risk of becoming a victim. In London it's over a third.

Wouldn't that be 2.5% and 3.4% respectively? Also, I don't think the risk is shared equally. Certain social groups woul be higher (young males) while the majority would be lower.

ETA: Sorry, just noticed you said over a DECADE.

 

[HeroineSheep]

Even though I've been a victim of violent crime within Brixton, I still think living here is worth the danger, and millions agree. Apart from the fact it's where the jobs are in my industry, it's an exciting place to live; theatres, restaurants, things occurring (and not just stabbings). You just have to take the rough with the smooth.

.

Never realised you were a crack dealer Hendo.


Err this one is Bob too. Sorry.

 

[HeroineSheep]

But we have to accept that living in London exposes us to greater levels of risk.The British Crime Survey for 2005/6 finds:


That compares to living in Greater Manchester where it's around 25 offences per 1000 of us.

Even though I've been a victim of violent crime within Brixton, I still think living here is worth the danger, and millions agree. Apart from the fact it's where the jobs are in my industry, it's an exciting place to live; theatres, restaurants, things occurring (and not just stabbings). You just have to take the rough with the smooth.
.

PS I did dig out the cross referencing of crime stats and the Census a while back (can't find it now) and the variation within Brixton and other small areas is enormous. For instance (from memory) around the Moorlands is in the most crime ridden 1% of the UK, while round much of Ferndale road it's more like the worst 20%...

Oops - both of those last two Bob posting in disguise by accident.

 

[hendo]

Why are these kids - some of them really small - allowed to roam around at a time when they ought to be tucked up in bed being read Bob The Builder? I lie in bed listening to them and conclude that it's a combination of chaotic lives leading to disastrous parenting and exacerbated by chronically poor educational opportunities.

The government has recognised this to some degree and the Prime Minister recently announced a program of 'super nannying' although quite what this means in practice I honestly don't know. At least it was a recognition of how deep rooted the problem is.

I think we have a problem with the connection between rights and responsibilities and not just on estates in Brixton. People have the right to have kids, but some parents don't see that they have a responsibility to them to bring them up properly and impose some discipline and motivation. Horror stories abound about how kids behave with their teachers, assserting their 'rights'; they're just being set up to lose later on in life.

It worries me that life here is so incredibly competitive, and getting more so, and yet there are swathes of people who are just not pushing. You have to fight for money, for housing, for a future for your kids; and yet there's loads of evidence of people who've just shrugged and stopped caring. And these are the people whose children roam around at one in the morning getting into problems. What kind of future do they imagine these children will enjoy, beyond dependency on benefits, poor prospects and involvement in crime?

I think that's why the Damilola Taylor tragedy struck such a chord; a kid with the right idea cut down by kids with all the wrong ones. They knocked down the block where it happened but they've a job on their hands sorting out the problems behind that murder.

 

[William of Walworth]

Sometimes I'm glad I don't live in Brixton.

I seem to lead a charmed life whenever I visit there, and I never seem to see any of this shit.

In Walworth, it's generally pretty quiet (if you avoid the Temple Bar at chucking out time, anyway )

<touches wood that my 15 year lucky streak continues>

 

[bluestreak]

it comes and goes i think. hopefully it'll pass.

 

[girasol]

So, it stands that violence is part of the human condition, if that wasn't the case there would never been any wars.

Human beings are violent creatures - some a lot more than others. Sadly. Add deprivation to the equation and you'll get some pretty pissed off people with nothing to lose and nothing else to do but go around fighting.

You think London is bad? Try any third world country where poverty is a lot more extreme and dead bodies are found on a daily basis.

 

[suzee blue cheese]

I don't quite understand why there's so much violence around, it must be part of the human condition...

Violence might be part of the human condition, but to be honest, even though we're only @ 4 miles away, there just aren't the same levels of chaotic behaviour where we live now. The guy at the corner shop occasionally gets groups of kids in there who give him a bit of lip when asked to leave but they don't run wild, laying seige to his shop. Kids are parented to a greater extent round here.

I might not have the convenience of a high street at the bottom of my road with all its nightlife any more, then again neither do I have the stench of stale piss and turds. So far, that's a good thing.

One big difference has got to be the extent of the crack dealing/using these days & its attendant psychoses. It's given Brixton a rapacious vibe it didn't have when I moved in 14 years ago.

 

[citydreams]

So, it stands that violence is part of the human condition, if that wasn't the case there would never been any wars..

Isn't a capacity for violence part of the human condition rather than violence itself. I have quite a vicious streak, but it's not my character to be violent - it's a result of social conditions.

 

[Reno]

Just to wrap up the evening's events, I was treated to a police helicopter hovering overhead at 7am.

What's really changed in the 12 years I've been here is the amount of anti social behaviour by t'yoot, who seem to have carte blanche to do whatever they like.

The shops opposite are virtually under siege from these oiks, bottles are lobbed around the place more or less every night, and it's quite common to see kids as young as 10 up to no good at 2am.

It's happening to all of London's deprived areas and it makes me very sad. This summer I witnessed a gang of boys between 11 and 13 attack an older teenage girl in Camden, attempting to rip off her clothes and threatening rape. Thank heavens she was a bit tougher then they could handle and got away. Also was witness to one of my neighbours getting murdered by a gang of teenagers this year. In both cases I dialled 999, btw and was made to wait while soothing music played till it was too late.

I visited Berlin in the summer. Unlike in London, if a kid gets out of control in a public place they are almost guaranteed to get reprimanded by an adult there. In Berlin people leave their bikes outside all night, barely bothering to lock them up because they hardly ever get nicked. As soon as I got back from my holiday I had my bike stolen when I left it out of sight for a couple of seconds. I used to just love London, but I'm so fed up with this city now that I'm seriously thinking of leaving after 24 years.

 

[Thora]

I visited Berlin in the summer. Unlike in London, if a kid gets out of control in a public place they are almost guaranteed to get reprimanded by an adult there. In Berlin people leave their bikes outside all night, barely bothering to lock them up because they hardly ever get nicked. As soon as I got back from my holiday I had my bike stolen when I left it out of sight for a couple of seconds. I used to just love London, but I'm so fed up with this city now that I'm seriously thinking of leaving after 24 years.

It is safer than London, but it's not quite that idyllic - I don't know anyone who risks leaving their bike unlocked, they get nicked all the time. Pushchairs get nicked if you don't lock them up too. And the gangs of young punk kids who hang around drinking and aggressively begging all day don't get reprimanded by anyone as far as I've ever seen

Still, it is nicer than Brixton.

 

[Reno]

It is safer than London, but it's not quite that idyllic - I don't know anyone who risks leaving their bike unlocked, they get nicked all the time. Pushchairs get nicked if you don't lock them up too. And the gangs of young punk kids who hang around drinking and aggressively begging all day don't get reprimanded by anyone as far as I've ever seen

Still, it is nicer than Brixton.

They where locked, but with locks a five year old could pick and people leaving them outside means that they are not as likely to get nicked as they would be here.

I'm sure you are right and in the long term it's probably less idyllic. Still I felt a lot more relaxed there then I do in London and people are a lot more friendly and considerate. I can't remember the last time I struck up a conversation with a stranger on the tube in London, but this happened several times while I was in Berlin and they weren't raving lunatics either.

 

[detective-boy]

In both cases I dialled 999, btw and was made to wait while soothing music played till it was too late.

To be honest, by the time a response arrived it would usually be too late anyway, even if they answered the phone immediately and the response was within the 8 mins target.

But there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever to day for any significant wait for call answering. With a proper application of technology every call could be answered in three rings. Whilst this may not actually help in many cases, it would have a massive impact on the perception of the public as to whether they are supported by the police. It needs to be sorted out and sorted out now (if not ten years ago ... )

 

[editor]

Still, it is nicer than Brixton.

I can't get over how safe the once ruddy-terrifying streets of the Lower East Side/Alphabet City in New York have become.

When I was working over there I would quite literally get more hassle in the short walk home from Brixton tube station than my entire time away.

Of course, there's some fucking awful gentrification going on in some areas of New York/Brooklyn which is rapidly clearing the area of any non-rich folk, but I didn't see any of the hoodie-tastic anti-social goings on that we've all grown used to here.

(*I'm not saying that the US is some sort of crime free nirvana by the way because it's got some dreadful problems in some areas, but comparable streets in NYC/Brooklyn sure felt a lot, lot safer than London).

 

[editor]

To be honest, by the time a response arrived it would usually be too late anyway, even if they answered the phone immediately and the response was within the 8 mins target.

I rang Brixton police last night when I saw the assaulted guy staggering into a heap on the floor and - for once - they were fairly quick on the ball.

Of course, that wasn't the case when I got assaulted a while ago, and the thugs responsible are still free to roam the streets and randomly attack others thanks to the cops' incompetence.