Time for radical Islam to be opposed?

[CyberRose]

What would a protest against radical Islam look like? Where would it be? Who would be its targets? (This is a genuine question, btw, no-one would be happier than I to see these people's influence reduced)

It can be as little as an article in the Socialist Worker or as big as a thousand strong multicultural group standing in the town square speaking out against radical Islam.

 

[CyberRose]

At the moment I don't see much option. The small, fragmented elements of the left that function currently can't hope to affect international relations. We need to be focusing on our own communities for the time being. But no, I'm no nationalist, but circumstances limit the extent of your influence. And I don't think the OP was asking why the left in China, or Peru, or Zaire are not focusing on radical Islam.

No, but as you're limiting this to British issues, why does the left turn out in their thousands to march against Israel considering that would fall under your category of "politically unimportant"?

 

[Citizen66]

His long post was shorter than the first one.

 

[mrfusion]

It can be as little as an article in the Socialist Worker or as big as a thousand strong multicultural group standing in the town square speaking out against radical Islam.

Oh, well, these things do get discussed, if we take the most passive route. There has been huge amounts of debate amongst the left about whether the alliance with Islamic groups over Iraq was appropriate, or what kind of stand we should take over Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, etc.

Anyway, going for last orders at my local, hope to find the world bang to rights when I get back.

Edit: Israel kinda has a funny position as it's perceived as a client state of our country, and so the desired effect is on our state, not Israel's. The same thing could go for Saudi Arabia etc, of course, and I agree that the left operates a double standard there. But we need to remember that muslims are a small, vulnerable minority in our country, and we need to stop arguments about foreign policy fueling conservative/right wing groups of the traditional parties, the fascist, and the Islamic.

 

[CyberRose]

i can't see anything in which you're involved reaching radically different conclusions from any previous threads on the subject.

Honestly mate, I've never seen an explanation as to why the left don't oppose radical Islam (or don't make it known they don't oppose it).

And altho that's where this thread appears to have gone, I also tried to raise some other points that I felt were important like not allowing the right to monopolise opposition to radical Islam (and thereby let them gradually change it to opposition to Islam in general) and also also that the left might get wider public support if it opposed radical Islam. These points haven't been discussed on this thread to my knowledge but I think they're important...

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Sorry but I don't buy that. Left wing politics (all politics for that matter) is about improving the lives of people. Radical Islam gives many people horrible lives, in many cases far worse than the effects of capitalism or fascism.

All political ideologies would claim to be about improving the lives people. Then again I'm sure brands of toiletries 'improve people's lives', but that doesn't make them progressive or reactionary or anything.

Lots of people have horrible lives. Many people have horrible lives because they're oppressed. Some are oppressed by way of growing up in some kind of religious fundamentalism. But that is unrelated to what is referred to as 'radical Islam' in the media or by politicians.

There are all kinds of social issues relating to radical Islam such as forced marriages etc. The left protest about a huge range of issues and a large proportion of those campaigns have nothing to do with winning political power (or preventing political power in the case of fascism).

There are campaigns to end child poverty, but are there campaigns against social issues brought about by radical Islam?

Things like child poverty (which are a result of the existence of poverty in general) can only be solved politically. That's why the left campagins on them. Child poverty isn't illegal. Forced marriage (where it is already illegal), which has nothing to do with Islam, radical or otherwise, on the other hand, can't be.

 

[CyberRose]

Things like child poverty (which are a result of the existence of poverty in general) can only be solved politically. That's why the left campagins on them. Child poverty isn't illegal. Forced marriage (where it is already illegal), which has nothing to do with Islam, radical or otherwise, on the other hand, can't be.

But like I said above, many feminist groups campaign against radical Islam, are they not political movements?

Anyway, in your opinion, what would be the best way to oppose radical Islam?

 

[Pickman's model]

Honestly mate, I've never seen an explanation as to why the left don't oppose radical Islam (or don't make it known they don't oppose it).

And altho that's where this thread appears to have gone, I also tried to raise some other points that I felt were important like not allowing the right to monopolise opposition to radical Islam (and thereby let them gradually change it to opposition to Islam in general) and also also that the left might get wider public support if it opposed radical Islam. These points haven't been discussed on this thread to my knowledge but I think they're important...

after sept 11, the onslaught on first afghanistan and then iraq led large sections of the left to identify with moslems as an oppressed mass, attempting a variety of strategies to engage with disaffected moslems, in particular moslem youth, in the (mistaken) belief that one's enemy's enemy is one's friend. this led to a load of extremely embarrassing episodes, like a scottish politician foisting his christianity as a reason for moslems to vote for him, and being the de facto leader of the soi-disant moslem party. the reason the left won't demonstrate any sentiment against 'radical islam' is because they would lose fuck loads of face.

 

[CyberRose]

after sept 11, the onslaught on first afghanistan and then iraq led large sections of the left to identify with moslems as an oppressed mass, attempting a variety of strategies to engage with disaffected moslems, in particular moslem youth, in the (mistaken) belief that one's enemy's enemy is one's friend. this led to a load of extremely embarrassing episodes, like a scottish politician foisting his christianity as a reason for moslems to vote for him, and being the de facto leader of the soi-disant moslem party. the reason the left won't demonstrate any sentiment against 'radical islam' is because they would lose fuck loads of face.

Funny, no seriously

 

[Pickman's model]

Funny, no seriously

yeh? it's better than anything you've been able to come up with

 

[CyberRose]

yeh? it's better than anything you've been able to come up with

You're tellin me that post was actually supposed to be serious?!

 

[Pickman's model]

You're tellin me that post was actually supposed to be serious?!

you've never seen the ruc described as the moslem party or seen galloway say how religious he is to garner moslem votes? where have you been?

 

[CyberRose]

you've never seen the ruc described as the moslem party or seen galloway say how religious he is to garner moslem votes? where have you been?

You're a clever little rascal aren't ya?!

Anyway, forget about why they don't oppose radical Islam for a moment and have a think about the other issues I raised, namely that the left should oppose radical Islam as a tactic against the fascists. Do you think that's a good idea?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

But like I said above, many feminist groups campaign against radical Islam, are they not political movements?

That's because Political Islam is an enemy of feminism.

Anyway, in your opinion, what would be the best way to oppose radical Islam?

The defeat of Washington which has always opposed progress and emancipation everywhere particularly in many of those countries that are muslim dominated is the foremost precondition.

The left needs to support and help build those forces and people that are struggling against their societies' domination by imperialism, transnational capital (as well as the reactionary forces on which depend on them), and are struggling to make better futures. Any left that supports either of PI or the imperialists/Israel is part of the problem, since both sides have collaborated in opposing the left.

Although the problem of 'radicalisation' in places like Britain will inevitably be starved by the above, it is another symptom of the same disease that has generated the rise of the BNP. So a total, positively-oriented solution is the only enduring one.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're a clever little rascal aren't ya?!

Anyway, forget about why they don't oppose radical Islam for a moment and have a think about the other issues I raised, namely that the left should oppose radical Islam as a tactic against the fascists. Do you think that's a good idea?

no, because it suggests that there is no desirable objective to be gained by strategically opposing something you've described as worse than fascism.

 

[CyberRose]

no, because it suggests that there is no desirable objective to be gained by strategically opposing something you've described as worse than fascism.

Not going to pretend I understand what you've written above because I don't.

Do you think the left and anti-fascist movements should oppose radical Islam at all?

 

[weltweit]

How do you even suppose to identify radical islam in order to oppose it?

Is it not a job for the security services to track down people espousing hatred or worse, encouraging or promoting suicide bombings and the like?

 

[CyberRose]

How do you even suppose to identify radical islam in order to oppose it?

Is it not a job for the security services to track down people espousing hatred or worse, encouraging or promoting suicide bombings and the like?

As I've said (many times now), feminist groups seem to manage opposing radical Islam well enough...

 

[weltweit]

As I've said (many times now), feminist groups seem to manage opposing radical Islam well enough...

Have they?

I have never heard about that!

 

[weltweit]

And that does not actually answer my question, which was :

How do you even suppose to identify radical islam in order to oppose it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Not going to pretend I understand what you've written above because I don't.

Do you think the left and anti-fascist movements should oppose radical Islam at all?

let's look again at what you wrote:

the left should oppose radical Islam as a tactic against the fascists.

tactics are to be used as the situation demands. they are how people do things, not strategy, which governs the tactics people use. anti-fascists should have a strategic opposition to 'radical islam' and not simply oppose them, as you suggest, to undermine the fascists.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Have they?

I have never heard about that!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=53208757633&_fb_noscript=1

which stems from this lot - http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/indexEvents.html

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Not going to pretend I understand what you've written above because I don't.

Do you think the left and anti-fascist movements should oppose radical Islam at all?

Shouldn't the left and anti-fascist movements oppose radical Islam because the latter seeks to crush some of the very freedoms the left and anti-fascists wish to protect?

 

[weltweit]

The left this the left that ..

It's patently obvious that everybody should oppose radical islam because it preaches the destruction of our way of life.

Everybody should expose it.

Just tell us where it is and we can ALL go to work!

 

[Pickman's model]

Just tell us where it is and we can ALL go to work!

i thought you didn't know what it was and now you simply want to know where it is.

 

[CyberRose]

Just tell us where it is and we can ALL go to work!

I've read your posts before, your not dumb your intelligent so why the silly posts? There were anti-Israel marches though Leeds this year - was there anything remotely connected to Israel in Leeds? An embassy perhaps? No.

Radical Islam is a concept, something to be spoken out against (like capitalism I suppose - tell me where teh capitalizm is so I can oppose eet!), you don't have to physically attack an Islamist (altho if you're connected to the anti-fascist movement I can see why you may be struggling to understand alternative methods of "oppose")

 

[CyberRose]

let's look again at what you wrote:tactics are to be used as the situation demands. they are how people do things, not strategy, which governs the tactics people use. anti-fascists should have a strategic opposition to 'radical islam' and not simply oppose them, as you suggest, to undermine the fascists.

But the WHOLE POINT of the anti-fascist movement is to UNDERMINE fascism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111oneoneone

 

[weltweit]

i thought you didn't know what it was and now you simply want to know where it is.

My first post was:

How do you even suppose to identify radical islam in order to oppose it?

Is it not a job for the security services to track down people espousing hatred or worse, encouraging or promoting suicide bombings and the like?

Meaning how to identify where it is, not what it is. I think it is clear that what it is is corrosive to the western world, anti western and to the extent that it wants to wage jihad abroad and at home.

It is clear that radical islam cannot be tolerated but not clear what individual punters or groups can do about it as these people hardly walk about proclaiming their presence (except obviously to their followers).

 

[weltweit]

I've read your posts before, your not dumb your intelligent so why the silly posts? There were anti-Israel marches though Leeds this year - was there anything remotely connected to Israel in Leeds? An embassy perhaps? No.

Radical Islam is a concept, something to be spoken out against (like capitalism I suppose - tell me where teh capitalizm is so I can oppose eet!), you don't have to physically attack an Islamist (altho if you're connected to the anti-fascist movement I can see why you may be struggling to understand alternative methods of "oppose")

OK, that is a fair point.

We leave the actual going after the jihadis and bombers to MI5/6 whatever and make a noise instead.

But for an anti radical islam movement to be most effective it should draw from the widest group of people possible, why do you seem so set on restricting its makeup to anti faschists, what about all the other people from left and right who have reason to be anti radical islam?

 

[CyberRose]

But for an anti radical islam movement to be most effective it should draw from the widest group of people possible, why do you seem so set on restricting its makeup to anti faschists, what about all the other people from left and right who have reason to be anti radical islam?

Erm because everyone else is opposing radical Islam? The far right are doing it on the streets (altho they view all Muslims as radical), the mainstream parties (including the government) oppose radical Islam and support community issues to combat the spread, that just leaves the far left (which includes the anti-fascist movement) who remain silent on the issue...