Time for radical Islam to be opposed?

[In Bloom]

no doubt the fascist movement has many many members who are also sexist and homophobic, but in a different way, and I don't think this is official policy

Not true at all, the smaller fascist groups still turn up at Pride parades with their thoroughly silly banners, for instance. The BNP is generally more coy about its homophobia, since they're savvy enough to know that gays are no longer an easy target, but there still exists a great deal of institutional homophobia within the BNP and it's policies.

Anyway, I'm increasingly of the opinion that anti-fascism is going in entirely the wrong direction, too much precious and scarce time and resources are being ploughed into simply opposing the BNP on the street in the absence of a workers' movement powerful enough to make it worthwhile. So I wouldn't advocate the same tactics being used against Islamists, since it would have much the same negative effects.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I was trying to offer an explanation as to why left wing groups and anti-fascists do not oppose radical Islam, that was merely one suggestion I thought of (another put forward since then is the fear of being labelled racist). RESPECT has ex-Islamists as councillors and George Galloway searched around the country until he found the most Islamist constituency in which to stand by courting the vote of Muslims. So perhaps in the grand scheme of things, RESPECT's core vote isn't Muslim, but they certainly rely on that Islamic vote.

Anyway, if you think what I said is wrong, why don't you offer an alternative explanation as to why the left don't oppose radical Islam instead of merely picking on irrelevant comments in an attempt to avoid the issue?

I don't think it's particularly irrelevant personally, but why "the left don't oppose radical Islam"? Plenty of people on "the left" *do* talk about radical Islam a lot of the time. Christ, this board's full of them.

If you're asking "is there a good reason for traditional UK lefties to concentrate more on far-right groups than 'radical Islamic' ones" I would say yes; for a start, the assorted Islamic authoritarian theocratic groups which do exist have minimal political influence and effect in general, and while they may have social impact within the Muslim community (which I would oppose and help those wishing to oppose) lefty political parties and groups aren't set up to do that and would be and are rubbish at it, coming from outside of the whole setup. Whereas far-right groups are - a bit - better understood by said groups and _do_ have general political influence, moving the window of debate and giving the main parties opportunities to exploit.

 

[CyberRose]

Oh dear, you're nicking Micheal Winner's catchphrases now? Epic fail (as is this thread).

Hmmm. Now you've piqued my curiosity as you've declared this thread an "epic fail" without actually commenting on any of the issues raised. What exactly is it about the issues of this thread you have a problem with? It's obvious the notion of opposing radical Islam makes you feel uncomfortable and I'd like you to tell me why as it might offer me an insight into the questions I raised in the OP...

 

[CyberRose]

in any case i think this question has been debated on these boards several times, if not several dozen times, before.

Well most issues have been debated on this forum several times but that's never stopped anyone continuing to post about them! I guess it depends on how uncomfortable the particular questions make posters feel which determines whether or not issues are "allowed" to be debated again?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Hmmm. Now you've piqued my curiosity as you've declared this thread an "epic fail" without actually commenting on any of the issues raised. What exactly is it about the issues of this thread you have a problem with? It's obvious the notion of opposing radical Islam makes you feel uncomfortable and I'd like you to tell me why as it might offer me an insight into the questions I raised in the OP...

Gee, you've busted me squire. I'm a paid agent in the service of Jihadistan tasked with derailing online debates about how to oppose radical Islam. Damn you pesky kids for foiling my plans!

 

[CyberRose]

Not true at all

What's not true? That fascists are or are not homophobic as I said (in the comment you quoted) that I believe fascists are homophobic...

I wouldn't advocate the same tactics being used against Islamists, since it would have much the same negative effects.

That's fine, but however you envision the anti-fascist movement opposing fascism more effectively, would you also advocate they use the same methods to oppose radical Islam?

 

[In Bloom]

What's not true?

That fascist groups are not homophobic as a matter of policy.

That's fine, but however you envision the anti-fascist movement opposing fascism more effectively, would you also advocate they use the same methods to oppose radical Islam?

I'd argue that what's needed is community organisation that crosses cultural and racial boundaries. The strength of both the BNP and Islamist groups is that they are strongly rooted in community organisation, we need to take that from under their feet if we want any hope of opposing them effectively.

Having said that, I'm not opposed to confrontation on the street where it's tactically useful, I just think that it's become fetishised as an aim unto itself.

 

[CyberRose]

Gee, you've busted me squire. I'm a paid agent in the service of Jihadistan tasked with derailing online debates about how to oppose radical Islam. Damn you pesky kids for foiling my plans!

Perhaps you shouldn't have posted at all instead of making belittling comments, because now it shows just how uncomfortable this issue is making you feel. I don't think you or anyone else on the left supports radical Islam, but what is certain is the absolute fear these people have in showing their opposition, and I want to know why...I was hoping you might be able to shed some light on that for me?

 

[Blagsta]

I agree. The problem is that many people on Urban seem to take anything other than wholehearted love of shariah law as meaning someone is somehow a skinhead neo nazi racist. Which is quite frankly preposterous.

this post is preposterous

 

[CyberRose]

That fascist groups are not homophobic as a matter of policy.


I'd argue that what's needed is community organisation that crosses cultural and racial boundaries. The strength of both the BNP and Islamist groups is that they are strongly rooted in community organisation, we need to take that from under their feet if we want any hope of opposing them effectively.

Having said that, I'm not opposed to confrontation on the street where it's tactically useful, I just think that it's become fetishised as an aim unto itself.

I agree with all of that. Do you have any ideas about why left wing groups don't oppose radical Islam now?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

This is just "oh noes you can't say anything about Muslim these days (continued on pages 11, 12, 14, 18, 19 and special supplement)" again isn't it?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

So I wouldn't advocate the same tactics being used against Islamists, since it would have much the same negative effects.

I do actually agree with this, and with the 'Well islamists aren't anywhere near the reins of power' argument, BUT I wish that we could discuss Islam and so on without being called racists on here. It gets a bit ridiculous at times.

 

[Raw SslaC]

I've said this before but the incident which can potentially unravel the quasi-leftists radical islamic politics is the insurgency in Iran. Galloway, Yvonne Riddly were in tatters having to defend a regime that has the government style of the soviet republic or a fascist corporative state. Islam can only grow and gain respect when it is confronted by an opposition or repression. Currently Islam grew from the War on Terrorism and the war in the middle-east. These are the main factors which have radicalised many muslims into being political cadre for various jihadists or pro-jihadists tendencies. The issue then is how can this support be undermined? Its also important that it isn't a negative force but one that is progressive. We should aim to undermine Islam (like all religions) on what it actually stands for and what we stand for. Islam is peace that is gained from the submission to the will of god. It preaches that unless a person follows this lifestyle, unless they prioritise god,then they are doomed. Anarchists are against all forms of coercive or forced submission, we are against GOD - whether "it" exists is not important, as bakunin said "if gods exists he must be destroyed" - for some young muslims who have to live this bullshit religion everyday of their lives, presenting radical arguments can win people over. I know a few ex-muslims who are anarchists where this has been the case. Lets not forget that muslims or islam is one monolithic thing, people share other identities - male, female, gay, straight, working class..etc. No one apart from the beardy wierdos or the imam is a muslim 24/7.

 

[CyberRose]

This is just "oh noes you can't say anything about Muslim these days (continued on pages 11, 12, 14, 18, 19 and special supplement)" again isn't it?

I want to know why the left/anti-fascist movement don't oppose radical Islam. AFAIK, they don't even speak out against it let alone protest against it (I'd be happy to read any articles from popular left wing groups that have spoken out, or acted against, radical Islam, btw)

There's a number of reasons why I want to know, mainly because I 1) believe radical Islam should be opposed and 2) I don't want that opposition to be monopolised by the right

 

[Blagsta]

I do actually agree with this, and with the 'Well islamists aren't anywhere near the reins of power' argument, BUT I wish that we could discuss Islam and so on without being called racists on here. It gets a bit ridiculous at times.

You can you daft sod!

 

[Citizen66]

That's fine, but however you envision the anti-fascist movement opposing fascism more effectively, would you also advocate they use the same methods to oppose radical Islam?

All of Islam is homophobic. Apart from perhaps progressive Muslims (are there many?) It's in those there teachings. 'Radical' Islam or Islamists are political Islam who want to see the creation of the caphilate.

So you couldn't just confine opposing homophobia to 'radical' Islam. Which playing field are we on here?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

ive worked out that by 'radical islam' you're talking about mostly political disinclined religious heads, and if not they can't even form political parties so there's no point in the left focussing on them. not nearly the same thing as the far-right.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I want to know why the left/anti-fascist movement don't oppose radical Islam. AFAIK, they don't even speak out against it let alone protest against it (I'd be happy to read any articles from popular left wing groups that have spoken out, or acted against, radical Islam, btw)

There's a number of reasons why I want to know, mainly because I 1) believe radical Islam should be opposed and 2) I don't want that opposition to be monopolised by the right

Well, you ignored the long post I made and lots of other people's posts, and apparently are unable or unwilling to do even a search of this board let alone the web, so I'm hardly enthused to respond.

My guess is that you have no intention of arguing this point with an actual analysis of what "left/anti-fascist" people say or do, or for that matter have any idea of what they say or do, and just want to satisfy your own prejudices that they're somehow "soft on Muslims" because they're all multicultural and shit - and thus you'll continue to ignore everything everyone says unless it agrees with your thesis, and you'll say the same thing over and over again. That is just my guess of course.

You'll find quite a number of the usual crowd agreeing with you by the way.

 

[mrfusion]

Well, as far as the OP goes the questions have been answered. The left does oppose those strains of Islam that are homophobic, misogynistic and totalitarian. It doesn't spend a lot of time on them because they are politically unimportant. Anyone who expects the left to be against all religion ever has a couple of hundred years of workers to argue with, who felt no contradiction between their faith and their vision of a better society. Indeed, Marx seems to have felt that people would still be religious in a worker's state.

And, as an edit, most of the young muslims I have known, and their families, have not been homophobic.

 

[CyberRose]

ive worked out that by 'radical islam' you're talking about mostly apolitical religious heads, and if not they can't even form political parties so there's no point in the left focussing on them. not nearly the same thing as the far-right.

Sorry but I don't buy that. Left wing politics (all politics for that matter) is about improving the lives of people. Radical Islam gives many people horrible lives, in many cases far worse than the effects of capitalism or fascism. There are all kinds of social issues relating to radical Islam such as forced marriages etc. The left protest about a huge range of issues and a large proportion of those campaigns have nothing to do with winning political power (or preventing political power in the case of fascism).

There are campaigns to end child poverty, but are there campaigns against social issues brought about by radical Islam?

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, as far as the OP goes the questions have been answered. The left does oppose those strains of Islam that are homophobic, misogynistic and totalitarian. It doesn't spend a lot of time on them because they are politically unimportant. Anyone who expects the left to be against all religion ever has a couple of hundred years of workers to argue with, who felt no contradiction between their faith and their vision of a better society. Indeed, Marx seems to have felt that people would still be religious in a worker's state.

You think that those strains of Islam that are homophobic,mysoginistic and totalitarian are less important than the likes of the BNP?
Really? Perhaps you should think about this issue a bit more?

 

[mrfusion]

Radical Islam gives many people horrible lives, in many cases far worse than the effects of capitalism or fascism.

Is this a joke?

 

[mrfusion]

You think that those strains of Islam that are homophobic,mysoginistic and totalitarian are less important than the likes of the BNP?
Really? Perhaps you should think about this issue a bit more?

As far as British politics goes? Absolutely.

 

[tbaldwin]

As far as British politics goes? Absolutely.

So your looking at it from a nationalist point of view?

 

[CyberRose]

Well, as far as the OP goes the questions have been answered.

Well Jesus I answered the questions in the OP but that didn't stop people commenting on them!

The left does oppose those strains of Islam that are homophobic, misogynistic and totalitarian. It doesn't spend a lot of time on them because they are politically unimportant.

I've seen no evidence of this opposition you refer to, can you give me links (genuinely interested). I'm actually quite amazed that you can say issues relating to radical Islam are "politically unimportant", more so that you offer this as a reason radical Islam is not focused on at all. Events in Israel and Palestine are "politically unimportant" (assuming you mean political power in the UK) but the left spends a HUGE amount of time protesting about those issues. And like I said above, if the aim of politics is to improve lives then the social issues around radical Islam are important (or should be anyway)

And, as an edit, most of the young muslims I have known, and their families, have not been homophobic.

Well 99% of Muslims in this country won't be radical, but they're not the focus of this thread are they?

 

[mrfusion]

So your looking at it from a nationalist point of view?

At the moment I don't see much option. The small, fragmented elements of the left that function currently can't hope to affect international relations. We need to be focusing on our own communities for the time being. But no, I'm no nationalist, but circumstances limit the extent of your influence. And I don't think the OP was asking why the left in China, or Peru, or Zaire are not focusing on radical Islam.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

What about engaging with these people in opposing radical Islam?

After all, they've got an anti-sharia protest coming up in 2 months time...

 

[Pickman's model]

Well most issues have been debated on this forum several times but that's never stopped anyone continuing to post about them! I guess it depends on how uncomfortable the particular questions make posters feel which determines whether or not issues are "allowed" to be debated again?

i can't see anything in which you're involved reaching radically different conclusions from any previous threads on the subject.

 

[mrfusion]

Well Jesus I answered the questions in the OP but that didn't stop people commenting on them!


I've seen no evidence of this opposition you refer to, can you give me links (genuinely interested). I'm actually quite amazed that you can say issues relating to radical Islam are "politically unimportant", more so that you offer this as a reason radical Islam is not focused on at all. Events in Israel and Palestine are "politically unimportant" (assuming you mean political power in the UK) but the left spends a HUGE amount of time protesting about those issues. And like I said above, if the aim of politics is to improve lives then the social issues around radical Islam are important (or should be anyway)


Well 99% of Muslims in this country won't be radical, but they're not the focus of this thread are they?

What would a protest against radical Islam look like? Where would it be? Who would be its targets? (This is a genuine question, btw, no-one would be happier than I to see these people's influence reduced)

 

[CyberRose]

Well, you ignored the long post I made and lots of other people's posts, and apparently are unable or unwilling to do even a search of this board let alone the web, so I'm hardly enthused to respond.

My guess is that you have no intention of arguing this point with an actual analysis of what "left/anti-fascist" people say or do, or for that matter have any idea of what they say or do, and just want to satisfy your own prejudices that they're somehow "soft on Muslims" because they're all multicultural and shit - and thus you'll continue to ignore everything everyone says unless it agrees with your thesis, and you'll say the same thing over and over again. That is just my guess of course.

You'll find quite a number of the usual crowd agreeing with you by the way.

Sorry to have upset you babe! I did read your "long" post, but unfortunately didn't reply. I will do below tho, don't worry. Just a quick word about the above tho...you say "You're satisfying your own prejudices etc etc about the left". I've asked a number of times now for evidence of the left's opposition to radical Islam. I'm being serious not a pain in the arse, if you are aware of any I'm interested. Now you your long one...

If you're asking "is there a good reason for traditional UK lefties to concentrate more on far-right groups than 'radical Islamic' ones" I would say yes; for a start, the assorted Islamic authoritarian theocratic groups which do exist have minimal political influence and effect in general, and while they may have social impact within the Muslim community (which I would oppose and help those wishing to oppose) lefty political parties and groups aren't set up to do that and would be and are rubbish at it, coming from outside of the whole setup. Whereas far-right groups are - a bit - better understood by said groups and _do_ have general political influence, moving the window of debate and giving the main parties opportunities to exploit.

You say above the left "concentrate more on far-right groups". Does that mean they don't focus on radical Islam or does that mean they don't focus on radical Islam as much?

And you say the social issues surrounding radical Islam are best dealt with by the Muslim community itself, and that the left would be rubbish at that, but that hasn't stopped numerous feminist groups campaigning against radical Islam, so what makes them so different from left wing groups?