Tim Pool. Investigative journalism in Sweden after Trump allegations on immigration problems

Discussion in 'world politics, current affairs and news' started by Anudder Oik, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. Anudder Oik

    Anudder Oik heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet

    The journalist Tim Pool accepted a challenge, and 2000 dollars, offered by a right wing media outlet in the USA to go and check whether Trumps statements about Sweden having problems with immigrants had any base in reality.

    Groans were immediately heard from people who suspected that he had been cherry picked and would try to add a right wing spin to his reports. They couldn't have been more wrong.

    The result has been a series of video reports which have given a lot of food for thought. He has interviewd journalists, psychologists, immigrants, and even a former Swedish policeman turned social worker (of Afghan immigrant origin). IMO his best interview as it pulls apart State lies that cover up about sexual assaults by immigrants while revealing at the same time that immigrants can integrate and benefit the society they are living in.

    In all, it is balanced. The only people who dish him are from the two extremes, the ultra right who want to paint a picture of society verging on civil war and the politically correct who scream racist and stifle debate at the drop of a hat. This latter group are, imo, responsible for the rise in populism as they aren't dealing with issues which effect people's perception or real life experience.

    Tim Pool (@Timcast) on Twitter

    Tim Pool

    camouflage likes this.
  2. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

  3. camouflage

    camouflage the usual rigmarole.

    Risked a "like" after a few mins... the clip seems like an intelligent discussion, will have to come back and watch the rest.
  4. DaveCinzano


    Not watched the whole thing yet, but... Fucking awesome library :D
    Pickman's model and camouflage like this.
  5. classicdish

    classicdish Well-Known Member

    I've watched all 13 of his 'Sweden' videos so far. I don't want to do a full analysis right now but I will just say that I have some serious issues with his reporting.

    At first he turned up in Sweden a couple of weeks ago seemingly trying to do a gonzo-type 'walk around the street and see what happens' thing fishing for crime - but he doesn't even speak Swedish, its very cold this time of year and the 'no-go areas' he was investigating aren't very dangerous in the first place. Basically it came across as 'stupid you-tube drama' style, but to be fair he had committed to doing a daily video and when he arrived he needed a few days to actually line up interviews with people willing to talk, who could speak english and who actually had something to say that would last 10 or 20 minutes. He didn't show any footage but it seems his attempt to just go round talking to people 'vox pop' style in the street/cafes/shops etc didn't go anywhere, and instead all his stuff has been pre-arranged interviews with specific people.

    Then he did a couple of videos with people who basically set him straight on the fact that Sweden is low crime (even the supposed 'problem' areas) and there isn't really a massive problem.

    By now he had managed to line up some more 'controversial' interviews - for the first he found someone who had come from Palestine (via Lebanon) when he was younger, and he eventually got him talking about Israel / Jewish people, ISIS, Hisbollah etc - and made sure he edited the most provocative comments, while leaving out any context about the actual middle-eastern political background involved (ie Israel/West Bank, Lebanese politics, Shia-Sunni conflicts and various conspiracy theories do to do Israel-Saudi-US-ISIS links etc). The way this whole thing was edited was just trash and he got his juicy quotes re. loads of ISIS supporters (although it is questionable that this is what the guy actually said and/or meant) and 'the jews (israelis?) are the enemy' type thing. Amusingly this actually ended up really dividing the whole 'alt-right'/far-right following he had now developed on you-tube, going by the comment section below the video, as hordes of various fash types started to bicker about whether 'teh jooz' or 'teh moozlims' are 'the real enemy' etc.

    By now he seemed to have attracted a Swedish alt-right fan-club so it wasn't surprising that he now found a series of willing interviewees who were either anonymous or more-or-less Swedish 'alt-right' or apologists for alt-right. He also got a pretty bogus "death threat" which many Swedish people identified as highly unlikely to come from an actual Malmo resident (based on the wierd use of language and place names etc). However he still made a bit a of drama about it and implied that it came from immigrant gangsters or something and how heroic he was being not leaving the country immediately.

    Next he staged a kind of am-dram "I had to run away from a no-go zone with a police escort" which was a) challenged by the police and b) you can watch for yourself and make up your own mind whether you think he is full of shit or not (by now you might be able to guess what I think).

    He at some stage did a video about crime statistics. At no point did he make any detailed comparisons between Swedish crime rates and the US or other countries. He didn't actually mention any immigration figures. The whole 'analysis' came down to him saying something like 'ok there's been a 10 or 20 year long term decline in crime - but statistics can be made to say anything so that is not reliable for reasons x and y' - and then in the very next breath 'but there has been a clear and massive increase in crime in the last two years'. His analysis is total junk and he either doesn't have a fucking clue what he is talking about or he is deliberately obscuring things. Either way this in itself brings his whole claim to being a serious journalist into question - as his whole hypothesis and supposed reason for being in Malmo is based on this stuff and he shouldn't have even left the US without having done proper research on this in the first place.

    The last two interviews were quite good - the first with a local mayor who gave a very good account of things, and this one with the ex-policeman, although I did notice that he edited out a fair number of bits mid flow, which makes me suspect (since he seems to have 'sexed up' some of his previous videos as well).

    OK - I will wrap up my comments here as I realise I have got carried away and actually done what I said I didn't want to do. I will be happy to flesh out and back up what I have said and deal with anything people want to debate about this Tim Pool / @Timcast Sweden series, but it is worth noting that there are 13 videos of average length around 15 minutes each which I have been watching for the past 2 weeks, and it is hard to bring up 'quotes' and time stamps etc without spending a fair amount of time going back over them again, so I might not be able to respond immediately.

    edited: spelling
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  6. Idris2002

    Idris2002 Well, there goes the frying pan theory.

    No go areas in Sweden, eh? I suppose he has plenty of footage that looks like this, does he?

    NoXion and frogwoman like this.
  7. classicdish

    classicdish Well-Known Member

    Bit more snow.
    Manter likes this.
  8. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    1) who wants dull "balanced" journalism? bland bbc bollocks. "balance", the striving for "impartiality", is the death knell of interesting and campaigning journalism. yeh this on the one hand but that on the other isn't progressive, it's reactionary;
    2) if one extreme is the ultra right then the other must be the ultra left. whereas the politically correct are liberals.
  9. Anudder Oik

    Anudder Oik heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet

    In the videos it comes out that last year in Malmo alone there were 11 murders. In the former policeman video it looks like they establish that there has been a rise in sexual crimes at swimming pools and public spaces such as parks. The Afghan former cop/now social worker, who deserves a lot of respect, associates this spike or (new phenomenom) with a tiny percentage of the immigrants who have come into Sweden, while most are interested in integrating.

    "There isn't really a massive problem" is debatable as it doesn't factor in the obvious everyday difficulties faced by immigrants who are without job prospects and are trapped in all immigrant areas with little chance of integrating. In this context people feel alienated and can turn to extreme outlets, such as radicalism. Sweden has provided over 300 murderers for ISIS, that's quite a large turnout per capita.

    IMO there is a massive problem all over northern europe. The whole mass immigration project has been poorly thought out as our elites bring in armies of fresh cheap labour, whatever the cost and without planning ahead so that the project can progress without problems.
    likesfish likes this.
  10. Idris2002

    Idris2002 Well, there goes the frying pan theory.

    No, it isn't really debatable, not unless you want to deliberately muddy the waters and conflate the 'the obvious everyday difficulties' with things like this alleged rise in sexual crimes.

    And that's not what the Yankee brownshirts were claiming, is it? The way they were talking, you'd think the whole of Sweden was in a state of civil war and social collapse.

    Are you a mug?
    coley and NoXion like this.
  11. classicdish

    classicdish Well-Known Member

  12. pseudonarcissus

    pseudonarcissus fluttering and dancing

  13. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    it's wicked to mock the afflicted
    19force8 and coley like this.
  14. classicdish

    classicdish Well-Known Member

    How does the murder rate of 12 (2016) (as quoted in Mother Jones article above) compare with other places both inside and outside Sweden?

    The population of Malmo on wikipedia is quoted as:
    'urban' (2012) 324,908
    'city' (2012) 342,457
    'metropolitan' (2014) 689,206
    the province is Scania / Skåne (pop?)

    As I am not sure which of these areas the 12 murders are recorded under I will leave this aside for the minute, but I would like to calculate an annual 'murder rate per 100,000' for Malmo and then compare that with, for example, the UK and the US.

    For now I will just quote the following from Wikipedia:

    Crime in Sweden - Wikipedia
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  15. Manter

    Manter Lunch Mob

    So the immigrants are simultaneously without job prospects and armies of fresh cheap labour. Clever of them :hmm:
  16. TruXta

    TruXta tired

    They're not immigrants ffs, they're mostly asylum seekers :mad::facepalm:
    Pickman's model likes this.
  17. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Interesting. Would like to know how much of that population increase has been due to immigration. It suggests that immigrants may well be less likely to inflict lethal violence on other people than non-immigrants, and that their influence on Swedish society may well be that they are making it safer.
    NoXion likes this.
  18. classicdish

    classicdish Well-Known Member

    OK so having checked the official stats I have seen figures the southern region of between 12 and 21 (2010-2015). Because I am not sure what the population is for the crime region because I don't know if these figures include suicides etc I can't really make any attempt to calculate a murder rate for Malmo, but Malmo is included in Region Syd (south):

    here: http://www.bra.se/download/18.358de3051533ffea5ea7eaf8/1462804743722/2016_Dödligtvåld_2015.pdf (see table on page 8)

    ...and it is not any different in its murder/100,000 rate than the rest of Sweden - ie it is roughly 1/100,000

    So let's look at the international rates from UNODC List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

    Sweden: 0.9 (2014)
    UK: 0.9 (2013)
    US: 3.9 (2013)
    of which:
    New Hampshire (best state): 0.9
    Louisiana (worst state): 10.3
    St Louis (worst city): 59.3 source

    Honduras (worst): 84.6 (2014)

    Malmo =
    roughly the same murder rate as the rest of Sweden
    roughly the same as the UK
    roughly the same as the very safest US state (New Hampshire)
    about 25% the rate of the US overall
    about 10% of the rate for the worst state in the US (Louisiana)
    about 2% of the rate for the worst city in the US (St Louis)

    Remind me about Tim Pool's comment or comparison for his US audience?
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  19. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Not watched it yet, but balanced?

    On the one hand you have someone saying something that is utterly untrue. On the other, you have people pointing out that what the others are saying is utterly untrue. The 'balance' in that debate is similar to the 'balance' in the debate over climate change - it is right at the point where all the weight of evidence is located, which is not somewhere in the middle.
    classicdish, NoXion and coley like this.
  20. Supine

    Supine Rough Like Badger

    All this analysis just because the shit flinging gibbon vocalised some random thought about Sweden off the top of his head?

    (Apologies to gibbons who are cute monkeys and not presidents)
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  21. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    cute apes.
    Mab, Supine and Manter like this.
  22. classicdish

    classicdish Well-Known Member

    OK, so I having covered murder rates in Malmo, what is the next issue?

    * There has been no correlation between immigration rates and sex crime rates.
    * Malmo's rates are no different to the rest of Sweden.
    * Sweden has the highest "rates" in the world because it takes sex crime seriously, reporting and recording has increased, crimes are recorded in a numerically different way and the categories/crimes are different.
    1) The theme of sexual violence against women (rape, assault, etc) was raised re. Malmo / Sweden. Trump made his 'Sweden' speech on 18th Feb and two days later Farage tweeted that "...Malmo is now the rape capital of Europe". The 20th was also the day Tim Pool launched his go-fund-me for the Sweden trip. Alt-right commentary claims about immigration / refugees making life unsafe for Swedish women has been a constant background noise throughout this video series.

    2) Also in the background there have been references to previous events in Germany etc. from the last couple of years.

    3) In the video with the ex-policeman new figures were referenced regarding some kind of reports?/offences?/arrests? at swimming pools, parks and festivals.

    I'll leave aside the last of these 3) for now because I'll need to go back to the video to try and find out what these figures actually are.
    The second point 2) has been the topic of various threads before eg this mega-thread Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations
    I'll therefore first address 1) ie sex crime in Sweden / Malmo.

    It can more or less be summed up by this BBC article from Feb 24th:

    Reality Check: Is Malmo the 'rape capital' of Europe?

    It is worth reading the whole thing (with time-based graphs and immigration figures etc) but just for anyone who doesn't want to click through here are some quotes:
    International comparisons?

    The Swedish police recorded the highest number of offences - about 63 per 100,000 inhabitants - of any force in Europe, in 2010. The second-highest in the world.


    - 63 countries did not submit any statistics. Some others reported zero rates.

    - Public debate in Sweden has raised awareness, encouraging women to go to the police if attacked, resulting in a higher reporting rate than in other countries in Europe and an increase over time. Some countries internationally have very low reporting and recording rates. The more seriously society, the police and the courts take the issue, the better the reporting rates get.

    - In Sweden every case of sexual violence is recorded separately eg if a woman says her husband raped her every day over a whole year the police would record c.300 seperate events whereas in many other countries it would just be one record.

    - 2005 sex crime legislation changed the definition of rape to be much wider, therefore increasing the figures.

    Reality Check: Is Malmo the 'rape capital' of Europe? - BBC News
    Sweden's rape rate under the spotlight - BBC News
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  23. Supine

    Supine Rough Like Badger

    'Alternative fact'
    coley likes this.
  24. JimW

    JimW 支那暗杀团

    Two grand US doesn't seem much to fund several weeks' reporting in Sweden
  25. phillm

    phillm Trolling through Life (TM)

    As a result of watching the Tim Cook video the You Tube algo came up with following recommended videos. The Google motto ' Do No Evil' - I don't think so.

    Attached Files:

    19force8 likes this.
  26. Anudder Oik

    Anudder Oik heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet

    If it's top heavy with right wing stuff, that's nothing to do with Tim Pool but rather the fact that the left and liberals see the whole subject of problems involving immigrants as a no go zone, a taboo and something to hush up. That leaves the right a free hand to go to town on the matter, while the discredited liberal press and establishment hide behind statistics that somehow fail to convince anyone except the most foolhardy.
  27. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Well this would be my question about the whole idea of Tim Cook's thing. I've not watched it and am probably not going to - Trump's idiocy really isn't worth taking that seriously. And in taking it seriously, I worry that one risks in some way giving it respectability. Like sending someone up to the Moon just to check that it really isn't made of cheese.

    Ignoring Oik's silliness above, there simply isn't a case to be answered here. Why should anyone jump just cos Trump says to?
    coley likes this.
  28. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    so the youtube recommendations are down to the left and liberals seeing the whole subject of problems involving immigrants as a no go zone.

    yeh right.
  29. Anudder Oik

    Anudder Oik heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet

    Well, yes. It is necessary to call him out, and Tim Pool has done a great job, interviewing people and showing that the problem view doesn't just come from the likes of Trump but also from the liberal media and politicians who prefer to cover things up. Sweden is not as bad as Trump made out, but neither is it a utopian paradise. Problems exist, the perception of problems exists and the silence of liberal politicains is leading to distrust and fuelling the far right democrat party in Sweden.

    One person interviewed, a psychologist, felt he should hide his identity, not thru fear of the far right or immigrant gangs but thru concern he would be hounded out of his job by liberals. Very believable.
  30. Anudder Oik

    Anudder Oik heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet

    You deliberately choose to misunderstand. If liberal or left made videos about the subject it would link to them but they don't and it doesn't. The subject is only spoken about by the right, and now, thankfully Tim Pool, who has done a great job with an objective view.

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