Er, sorry, read too much into, "to let there be a place for a reasonable amount of conspiracy-style arguments to be disscussed, without the fear of what is being discussed resigned to the bin" - fairy nuff mate - I just think the threads are interminably dull - there is room for discussion - it's the conspiracy theory model which is being objected to, not the discussions themselves. It's a pile o' shite.
threads on 911 being liquidised...
- Thread starter fela fan
- Start date
It isn't the censorship of ideas. It's the limiting of wanky, ego enlargement by some cranks who want to broadcast their stunning level of perception and understanding to the widest audience.
Nikki had it spot on. Why are they here and not on some other forum? Because this place has a lot of visitors and they can grandstand to the greatest extent. And God knows, a show-off loves an audience.
Nikki had it spot on. Why are they here and not on some other forum? Because this place has a lot of visitors and they can grandstand to the greatest extent. And God knows, a show-off loves an audience.
Editor,am i right in thinking that even if you do have suspisions about 911,without solid proof its just a non issue,and not worth all the speculation,and waffle?
That seems fair enough,but isnt that how people often find out the truth about things,by speculating,and questioning the 'official' story?
I cant think of any solid proof of anything suspect,just the usuall un answered questions.But i remember reading in places like the 'Project for a New American Century' website,which is directly associated with the Bush administration and corporate america,that what they needed (in their own words.....near enough)was something on the scale of Pearl Harbour,to give them the excuses they need to make a move on the middle east.Also a member of the Bush admin admitting that George was looking for a reason to attack Iraq way before 911 and his war on terror.Im sure your well aware of all this stuff.
Do you suspect foul play,or have a gut feeling?
That seems fair enough,but isnt that how people often find out the truth about things,by speculating,and questioning the 'official' story?
I cant think of any solid proof of anything suspect,just the usuall un answered questions.But i remember reading in places like the 'Project for a New American Century' website,which is directly associated with the Bush administration and corporate america,that what they needed (in their own words.....near enough)was something on the scale of Pearl Harbour,to give them the excuses they need to make a move on the middle east.Also a member of the Bush admin admitting that George was looking for a reason to attack Iraq way before 911 and his war on terror.Im sure your well aware of all this stuff.
Do you suspect foul play,or have a gut feeling?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
No, I see what you're saying, RD, and yes, people are concerned about 9/11 and connected matters, and it would be a shame if they couldn't discuss them on U75.
Unfortunately, discussion of 9/11 seems to be poisoned at the moment. Threads degenerate into slanging matches within minutes. We get a lot of the same stuff being repeated that has already been discussed, and as soon as that happens the old arguments start again.
It's a question of "does this thread get binned because it's just turning into a nasty argument?" or "does this thread remain because it contains valuable information and debate?" I'm not going to pretend that's an easy call. However, what I can say is that threads which are explicitly started to have a go at posters, named or unnamed, for their "calls for banning" aren't going to hang around for very long.
Unfortunately, discussion of 9/11 seems to be poisoned at the moment. Threads degenerate into slanging matches within minutes. We get a lot of the same stuff being repeated that has already been discussed, and as soon as that happens the old arguments start again.
It's a question of "does this thread get binned because it's just turning into a nasty argument?" or "does this thread remain because it contains valuable information and debate?" I'm not going to pretend that's an easy call. However, what I can say is that threads which are explicitly started to have a go at posters, named or unnamed, for their "calls for banning" aren't going to hang around for very long.
editor said:
There's been plenty of threads that have not only been consigned to the dustbin, but been completely erased !!!
Ok maybe it's come up time and time again? and wasting your bandwidth? hey, maybe it is attracting even more nuts to your site?
With the subject matter that is envolved here,the environment for serious debate on alternative theories has been created here, and I personally feel that the level of discussion is strong enough to blow away fools/nutters/trolls that have no use to these kind of serious, well thought out debates on these particular subjects. Give your site and/or it's members more worth maybe??
Believe me, I'm quite sure that your site is not gonna turn into some wacko playground, just cos you allow a bit of alternative thought-provoking discussion !!!
Urban75 is a unique community that can deal with disruptiveness as has been proved time & time again !!!
All people like myself are pleading with you is, is that the site manage itself to an extent and allow a reasonable amount of whatever you wanna call it, "conpiracies" to occur, with out the threat of "Mr editor don't agree so fuck off!!!" Cos truly belive, that is the way it is coming across at the mo, and I feel it is causing more disruption than good ????
Yours suggestively
RaverDrew
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
As far as I'm aware, there aren't many that have been erased rather than binned - I can't think of any off-hand.
Binned threads don't live forever you know - they get wiped after a while.
Binned threads don't live forever you know - they get wiped after a while.
FridgeMagnet said:
This is what I mean unfortunately!!! There are serious points to be raised I feel on all of these threads and there does need to be a line drawn when they get deliberately trolled or severely disruptive to other threads within the community.
I still feel as if there is an over zealousness/paranoia towards this type of discussion though, that ruins it. For instance, you look at the arguments that have overspilled from uk/world p&p all over the boards in the last week, that have IMO caused a lot more disruption/"surplustm" bandwith waste, and there is nowhere near as much censorship/moderation towards them !!!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Well, of course there are serious points, but on every one of these threads the same points get referred to over and over again, the same arguments come up, the same personal fights start up once more... I'm not the only one, I'm sure, who has a sinking feeling every time they see a new thread with "9/11" in the title. Let alone "remote controlled planes" etc.
There have been some spillovers from UKP recently which have been disruptive and yeah, that's not good either. I tend to think they're self-contained, but I may be wrong.
There have been some spillovers from UKP recently which have been disruptive and yeah, that's not good either. I tend to think they're self-contained, but I may be wrong.
editor
hiraethified
Actually, there's only about four or five posters who actively post on those threads - everyone else has long since given up trying to reason with their evidence-free antics.RaverDrew said:
There's barely any interest in 9/11 threads from the majority of the community.
So why should I and the mods put up with the disruption (and the inevitable personal attacks) just for the benefit of a tiny percentage of posters who are hell bent on repeating themselves over and over again?
Loki's thread sums up the pointlessnss of these threads. He asked a simple question about a key element of the conspiracy fans claims, and 500 posts later there still wasn't a rational, credible answer in sight.
editor
hiraethified
Thousands of threads 'get completely erased' evey week - the FAQ clearly explains this fact and suggests that posters make back ups of threads important to them.RaverDrew said:
FYI, the last two vaguely on-topic 9/11 threads are still sitting in the bin if you're interested. The one I deleted a few days ago had long since turned into a FAQ-busting, waaay off-topic onslaught of personal insults.
But I ask again: if some individuals are so sure that 9/11 was a phone call fakin', remote control plane flyin', WTC self implodin' conspiracy, why don't they show the conviction of their beliefs and set up their own forums where they will never, ever have to worry about evil admins removing their endlessly circular posts?
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
There are THOUSANDS of threads that have been completely erased because otherwise these boards would have collapsed under the sheer weight and the vast majority have been more interesting and are more mourned than conspiracy threads...Vixihas great 'How do you take your tea' thread that showed the gulf between US and UK posters on the subject of Cream Tea (The US posters were putting cream in their tea, to us Brits Cream tea means a pot of tea, and scones with jam and cream, usually eaten in a tea shop in Devon)...what about ats's classic thread, 'Advice for the young'?RaverDrew said:
9/11 conspiracy waffle threads can't hold a candle to those two........
editor
hiraethified
I ask again: which elements of the various fanciful 9/11 conspiracy theories haven't already been 'discussed properly' here?RaverDrew said:
Which 'points' haven't been raised repeatedly here?
I'd say there's been ample time and space given to every single possible permutation of the various exciting theories, even though the reluctance of conspiracy fans to address specific issues makes the whole thing an utterly pointless exercise (see: "what happened to the planes and passengers")
bmd
Island in the stream.
Fela I'd like to understand what exactly it is about all this that is bothering you so much. If you feel that the Editor is stifling your right to free and frank discussion then why don't you set up your own board and ask if it's ok to post 1 thread on world politics directing people there and then all the people who think the same as you do or merely feel the need to debate this matter will have a place to do so.
If I have this right then there already has been a place to do this, here, and it hasn't been a success and then you've had your own forum which again wasn't a success, perhaps if there was some merit to your arguments then these attempts would have borne fruit.
Fwiw, I have never felt able to post on those threads as they seem to be driven by misguided individuals with their own mystery agenda.
If I have this right then there already has been a place to do this, here, and it hasn't been a success and then you've had your own forum which again wasn't a success, perhaps if there was some merit to your arguments then these attempts would have borne fruit.
Fwiw, I have never felt able to post on those threads as they seem to be driven by misguided individuals with their own mystery agenda.
aqua
made of cheese and gin
beesonthewhatnow posting
I have a really simple solution for anyone that thinks Mike or any of the mods round here are being unfair, undemocratic, are blocking free speech, or feel that their crackpot views aren't getting the credit they deserve.
Tis very simple.
Fuck off and start your own boards, at your own expense. Spend countless hours dealing with fuckwits, get hassled by the police, press and far right nutters and god knows what else, then see how you feel.
Otherwise shut the fuck up and stop bloody moaning.
I have a really simple solution for anyone that thinks Mike or any of the mods round here are being unfair, undemocratic, are blocking free speech, or feel that their crackpot views aren't getting the credit they deserve.
Tis very simple.
Fuck off and start your own boards, at your own expense. Spend countless hours dealing with fuckwits, get hassled by the police, press and far right nutters and god knows what else, then see how you feel.
Otherwise shut the fuck up and stop bloody moaning.
I'm just offering my opinion that I feel there should be a place for non-trolling discussion of this sort on these boards.
Obviously the subject has been done to death/not getting anywhere, so therefore there is NO room for this topic on the boards. Fair enuff !!! If that is what you feel the best thing is to do !!! The editor's word is final and rightly so !!! A line has to be drawn somewhere otherwise these boards might descend into anarchy !!!
Could I also propose though, that whenever a new thread comes up about any subject that has been done before ie. kittens/swp/whats the best strain of Ganja?/Badgers or anything else that has been done to death etc. We then we flame these people, and tell them to fuck off and start there own boards and then liquidise it.
Personally I couldn't give a shit about what is being debated in the 9/11 threads really, but I will defend those who feel like they are being treated harshly.
Bit more leniency and consistency is the answer IMO.
Obviously the subject has been done to death/not getting anywhere, so therefore there is NO room for this topic on the boards. Fair enuff !!! If that is what you feel the best thing is to do !!! The editor's word is final and rightly so !!! A line has to be drawn somewhere otherwise these boards might descend into anarchy !!!
Could I also propose though, that whenever a new thread comes up about any subject that has been done before ie. kittens/swp/whats the best strain of Ganja?/Badgers or anything else that has been done to death etc. We then we flame these people, and tell them to fuck off and start there own boards and then liquidise it.
Personally I couldn't give a shit about what is being debated in the 9/11 threads really, but I will defend those who feel like they are being treated harshly.
Bit more leniency and consistency is the answer IMO.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Even if they're not actually being harshly treated?
I lurk on world politics. Sometimes you get good debate and when you don't there's a highly amusing round of handbags ready to flare up.
However, the 11/9 stuff *is* boring and repetitive. There's nothing new being said. They just all keep going round and round in ever-decreasing handbag-wielding circles; it's a total waste of bandwidth. If it were up to me, then I'd delete any 11/9 thread out of hand for six months and stick something up in the Posting FAQ to this effect. Then, once we've all had a rest and a chance to get new evidence and arguments, let the handbags re-commence apace, with house bricks instead of Lego ones.
Seeing someone get shot out of a cannon once every few months is funny and entertaining. Seeing it every night is boring and repetitive.
However, the 11/9 stuff *is* boring and repetitive. There's nothing new being said. They just all keep going round and round in ever-decreasing handbag-wielding circles; it's a total waste of bandwidth. If it were up to me, then I'd delete any 11/9 thread out of hand for six months and stick something up in the Posting FAQ to this effect. Then, once we've all had a rest and a chance to get new evidence and arguments, let the handbags re-commence apace, with house bricks instead of Lego ones.
Seeing someone get shot out of a cannon once every few months is funny and entertaining. Seeing it every night is boring and repetitive.
white rabbit said:
I posted this thread on this forum because a moderator told me it is the place for it.
I never come to this forum and wanted this thread in the world forum where 911 debates take place. But i was told it wasn't relevant to that forum, hence it is here.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
i appreciate that people get bored with sept 11 stuff. but the absence of threads about it may lead some posters to the erroneous conclusion that certain aspects of the event, its origins and aftermath, haven't been discussed.
as i observed on the predecessor to this thread, discussion on the subject is likely to increase when michael moore's film comes out. that's less than six months away, and i feel it would be a travesty to delete all sept 11 threads out of hand when some of them may contain valuable discussion on the topick.
i believe banning all discussion on sept 11 is negative and against the spirit which draws - and keeps - many posters here. instead i would suggest that there be a sticky with the titles of previous sept 11 threads with a caution not to repeat discussion on those aspects of the event. in that way dull or fuckwitted conspiracy threads could be avoided whilst new informed debate on serious facets of the issue could continue.
it's also true that threads can be diverted fairly easily from their intended topick. maybe people would bear in mind that with sept 11 threads the original subject should be kept in mind and any conspiracy arsery - outlandish conspiracy stuff, i mean - will lead to the perhaps premature deletion of such threads.
as i observed on the predecessor to this thread, discussion on the subject is likely to increase when michael moore's film comes out. that's less than six months away, and i feel it would be a travesty to delete all sept 11 threads out of hand when some of them may contain valuable discussion on the topick.
i believe banning all discussion on sept 11 is negative and against the spirit which draws - and keeps - many posters here. instead i would suggest that there be a sticky with the titles of previous sept 11 threads with a caution not to repeat discussion on those aspects of the event. in that way dull or fuckwitted conspiracy threads could be avoided whilst new informed debate on serious facets of the issue could continue.
it's also true that threads can be diverted fairly easily from their intended topick. maybe people would bear in mind that with sept 11 threads the original subject should be kept in mind and any conspiracy arsery - outlandish conspiracy stuff, i mean - will lead to the perhaps premature deletion of such threads.
Mrs Magpie said:
How many of those thousands were completely erased from the first page of topics?
See how words gain common currency and end up distorting reality: there is SO MUCH on those 911 threads that is not conspiracy theory, but 911 threads are now simply viewed by many as CT, one and the same thing.
It's been interesting reading posters' views, and i'd like to broadly answer them since it was me that put this thread here.
Just why do posters consider it an issue that because they think certain threads tedious and boring and full of grandstanding egomaniacs, then it's okay for such threads to be binned or erased?
I find certain topics and forums tedious too. I don't want them banned, i just don't read them!
Why, just why should i set up my own board and talk to no-one?? I have explained countless times to editor i don't have a fucking clue how to set up a website, never mind a board.
But i don't want to, i contribute to urban because i enjoy doing so and because it gives me and others a voice on topics not normally covered in other media.
911 is one of them, is the biggest and most profound event in all our lives, and the truth is not yet out. Setting up a new board and talking to a few people ain't going to do anything. What's the point of 'preaching to the converted'??
Many don't post on 911 threads, but i bet quite a few read them.
My issue is, why should these threads be deleted or erased? This constant threat impinges on posters' ability to voice their opinions freely. No truthful or reasonable explanation has been given as to why they have to be deleted. And not after a dozen posts, after hundreds of posts.
For example bob marleys dad asked me why all this bothers me so much. Well, a consequence of all this banning and binning and erasing is that i find myself unable to give you my answer. I find myself having to censor my speech. I cannot answer him. This i find dreadful on such an alternative, independent site as urban75.
The thread that this thread is specifically about had just proved that the claim that 911 threads are infested with hordes of conspiracy fans (or fruitloops) is groundless. Total proof had arrived in answer to my question. Then within minutes of that proof appearing, no more trace of said thread.
Just why do posters consider it an issue that because they think certain threads tedious and boring and full of grandstanding egomaniacs, then it's okay for such threads to be binned or erased?
I find certain topics and forums tedious too. I don't want them banned, i just don't read them!
Why, just why should i set up my own board and talk to no-one?? I have explained countless times to editor i don't have a fucking clue how to set up a website, never mind a board.
But i don't want to, i contribute to urban because i enjoy doing so and because it gives me and others a voice on topics not normally covered in other media.
911 is one of them, is the biggest and most profound event in all our lives, and the truth is not yet out. Setting up a new board and talking to a few people ain't going to do anything. What's the point of 'preaching to the converted'??
Many don't post on 911 threads, but i bet quite a few read them.
My issue is, why should these threads be deleted or erased? This constant threat impinges on posters' ability to voice their opinions freely. No truthful or reasonable explanation has been given as to why they have to be deleted. And not after a dozen posts, after hundreds of posts.
For example bob marleys dad asked me why all this bothers me so much. Well, a consequence of all this banning and binning and erasing is that i find myself unable to give you my answer. I find myself having to censor my speech. I cannot answer him. This i find dreadful on such an alternative, independent site as urban75.
The thread that this thread is specifically about had just proved that the claim that 911 threads are infested with hordes of conspiracy fans (or fruitloops) is groundless. Total proof had arrived in answer to my question. Then within minutes of that proof appearing, no more trace of said thread.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
i think it's up against from some stiff competition from the fall of the soviet union, arsenal winning the fa and league cups in 1993, and people losing their virginity.fela fan said:
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
well, the fall of soviet union anyway.
editor said:
I just looked at the last 911 thread to be binned. On the first three pages, 16 different posters contributed.
There were 25 pages before it got binned by editor. If such threads are endlessly circular, and tedious, why did it get to the 25th page?
You see posters, there's more to the explanations than meets the eye.
911 threads are often derided and written off as full of posters that are conpiracy fans, or fruitloops. Full of them, we are repeatedly told.
I challenged editor about four times to name them. He finally came up with just four names, one of whom was me, and another i barely recall (can only have been around for a very short time, since i've been on these threads for ages). I then asked how four names could represent hordes of CTs. Minutes later, the thread was erased. Since the main reason given is that these threads are populated by so many CTs, it seems there must be another reason, coz i disproved the commonly given reason for banning such threads.
And since i am not a CT, nor have i ever posted up any such theories, that leaves three, and one of them was only temporary.
So we have a possible two conspiracy fans on these threads.
Is that why they're being banned??
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
there's conspiracies and conspiracies, evidence and evidence.
it's fairly clear that there's much more to sept 11 than meets the eye. for example, what did happen to the fourth plane? i believe that it was shot down, due to the wreckage being found over a very large area. look at lockerbie, and at the apparent wreckage pattern for the "let's roll" plane: if a plane dives out of the sky things are going to be in a much smaller area. now things have gone too far for the american government to tell the truth as those passengers are revered as heroes. i can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt: but it's certainly plausible.
why were the saudi lot rounded up and flown about and sent home?
who were the hijackers? some of the people alleged to have been on the planes turned up alive and well. michael moore suggests that the pilots of the hijacked planes may have received military training, perhaps from the saudi air force. it would explain how some people with apparently little flying experience could smack a jumbo into the best point to cause the maximum damage.
to my mind, these are legitimate questions. i'm not interested in whether the planes were remote controlled or if the passengers somehow disappeared off the planes.
but any decent conspiracy is going to keep as much convincing evidence out of the public arena as possible. bush and the bin ladens are not going to allow dr jazzzzz or me into their files to see precisely how they're linked. some hypotheses need to be made, to fit the known facts. those which are plausible may fruitfully be dicussed: other less likely, and frankly impossible, ones should just be discarded.
to ban the topick entirely is draconian.
it's fairly clear that there's much more to sept 11 than meets the eye. for example, what did happen to the fourth plane? i believe that it was shot down, due to the wreckage being found over a very large area. look at lockerbie, and at the apparent wreckage pattern for the "let's roll" plane: if a plane dives out of the sky things are going to be in a much smaller area. now things have gone too far for the american government to tell the truth as those passengers are revered as heroes. i can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt: but it's certainly plausible.
why were the saudi lot rounded up and flown about and sent home?
who were the hijackers? some of the people alleged to have been on the planes turned up alive and well. michael moore suggests that the pilots of the hijacked planes may have received military training, perhaps from the saudi air force. it would explain how some people with apparently little flying experience could smack a jumbo into the best point to cause the maximum damage.
to my mind, these are legitimate questions. i'm not interested in whether the planes were remote controlled or if the passengers somehow disappeared off the planes.
but any decent conspiracy is going to keep as much convincing evidence out of the public arena as possible. bush and the bin ladens are not going to allow dr jazzzzz or me into their files to see precisely how they're linked. some hypotheses need to be made, to fit the known facts. those which are plausible may fruitfully be dicussed: other less likely, and frankly impossible, ones should just be discarded.
to ban the topick entirely is draconian.
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