Thomas Cook fuckers

[jæd]

Well maybe they dont-but if i was going to be the Manager of Thomas Cook in Bangor - i might have realised that a lot of people speak Welsh there,and there would be a high probability that my fellow employees would speak Welsh as a matter of course-so either i could take the trouble to learn some Welsh or decide to ban it and fuck off all my employees ,a large section of the local population and have demonstrations outside my store.
I know what the easier decision would be

Perhaps the manager doesn't feel that learning a minority language that is artifically maintained and substantially different to English isn't a long-term benefit... Espcially if they aren't interested in staying in Bangor for more one or two years...

Any chance you can tell us why the Welsh are "special". There are lots of minority groups in the UK... Why should the Welsh be allowed to have exceptions to rules the rest of the UK follows...?

 

[Karac]

Perhaps the manager doesn't feel that learning a minority language that is artifically maintained and substantially different to English isn't a long-term benefit... Espcially if they aren't interested in staying in Bangor for more one or two years...

Any chance you can tell us why the Welsh are "special". There are lots of minority groups in the UK... Why should the Welsh be allowed to have exceptions to rules the rest of the UK follows...?

Well it might asssist her in her day to day working life-presumably she has little social contact with her employees if she cant even communicate with them properly and isnt even willing to make the attempt.
"Artificially maintained" -yes it is substantially different to English-so what?
The Welsh arent special-but bilingualism is encouraged in Wales-and if the choice is between a bullying monoglot boss in a Welsh speaking area and the employees speaking their first language-i dont really understand how you can come down on her side

 

[jæd]

Well it might asssist her in her day to day working life-presumably she has little social contact with her employees if she cant even communicate with them properly and isnt even willing to make the attempt.
"Artificially maintained" -yes it is substantially different to English-so what?
The Welsh arent special-but bilingualism is encouraged in Wales-and if the choice is between a bullying monoglot boss in a Welsh speaking area and the employees speaking their first language-i dont really understand how you can come down on her side

Why speak it when the company language is English. And outside work, the majority of Welsh speak English...

Artifically maintained: Welsh speakers were declining until the Welsh Language Act. This indicates there is no reason to speak welsh unless actively encouraged.

Hard-to-learn: Welsh is from a different branch of languages compared to the Romantic. This makes it harder to learn.

Since when is the Manager bullying. He/she is just putting company policy into practice.

 

[Karac]

Why speak it when the company language is English. And outside work, the majority of Welsh speak English...

Artifically maintained: Welsh speakers were declining until the Welsh Language Act. This indicates there is no reason to speak welsh unless actively encouraged.

Hard-to-learn: Welsh is from a different branch of languages compared to the Romantic. This makes it harder to learn.

Since when is the Manager bullying. He/she is just putting company policy into practice.

The vast majority of Welsh people speak English-but in Bangor they dont-"company langauge"-what the fuck is a company language?-is that legally defined?-im pretty sure its not
The Welsh language act probably had minimal effect on the numbers speaking Welsh-not saying it wasnt important though-Welsh medium education is prob far more important.
English is paradoxically very difficult to learn-loads of irregular verbs-words spelt the same that mean different things,words that sound the same but mean different things-think bow,bough etc-besides English is not a Romance language

 

[llantwit]

Jaed - you're talking shit. The Gujarat comparison's a non-starter. This analogy would only work if you were talking about a hindi-speaking business (since when did businesses speak languages?) banning workers speaking Gujerati in a town like Ahmedabad. If Thomas Cook want to operate in Wales they have to take into account the place is a separate country with a separate language. To try and ban the use of Welsh in Wales is insensitive in the extreme given the history of the suppression of the Welsh language. And it's fucking tactically stupid, too, given the passions it's likely to stir up, as Karac has said. BTW, the concept of a 'company language' - fuck off.

 

[llantwit]

In fact, I've been to a Thomas Cook branch in Ahmedabad, and I can personally vouch for the fact the staff there were speaking Gujerati.
They also have other offices all over India in places where lots of regional languages are spoken (Delhi, Mumbai, Kerala, Goa, etc) without any trouble.
No bans there. Why here?

 

[lewislewis]

Perhaps the manager doesn't feel that learning a minority language that is artifically maintained and substantially different to English isn't a long-term benefit... Espcially if they aren't interested in staying in Bangor for more one or two years...

Any chance you can tell us why the Welsh are "special". There are lots of minority groups in the UK... Why should the Welsh be allowed to have exceptions to rules the rest of the UK follows...?

Who said we're a minority? You forget, we're actually 'British' according to that Scot in exile Gordon Brown.

Seriously though, i'm quite pleased with the advance of Wales towards bi-lingualism which is the normal model of society across Europe (that is, to have more than one language). Welsh and English are equally valid languages and should have equal legal status. It is not acceptable to ban our language in any circumstance really.

You gave away your agenda by the way, when you said Welsh is 'artificially maintained'. Welsh has been a living language since antiquity, the recent expansion is thanks to tireless campaigning which was then taken up by politicians and made into laws. On to the next language act that will allow people to speak Welsh as a human right!

 

[pembrokestephen]

I'm with the manager... If someone who is supervising can't speak the lingo, how can they manage effectivly...?

(A place I worked at once had the same problem with a bunch of S.Africans who spend their time speaking in Africanas to each other. They were told to speak in a language everyone was happy in, otherwise they would be given a verbal warning in English )

Well, speaking as a Saes living in Wales, I have to say that if this is that much of a problem (ie., the company decides that it is absolutely necessary that the manager is able to eavesdrop on his staff), then they need to hire Welsh-speaking managers.

Thomas Cook has Welsh-speaking staff, presumably in part because they're interested in doing business with Welsh-speaking customers. It is therefore inevitable (especially if Welsh is their primary language) that they will conduct conversations between themselves in the language in which they are most fluent. Thomas Cook need to get over that.

They could (if they didn't mind discrimination lawsuits) solve the problem by hiring people who were primary English speakers. In doing so, they may very well reduce the quality of the service they are offering to their Welsh-speaking customers - they really can't have it both ways.

It's very easy for people not in Wales to see this in a very simplistic way (as I think you have here, Jaed). I've lived in Wales for over two years now, and still only have the slightest hint of the cultural sensibilities around the whole issue of Welshness, and in particular language. It's not quite right even to compare English/French with English/Welsh - the Welsh language is so much more a part of the cultural identity here, particularly (I think) because of the way the English went to such lengths over such a long period of time to try and stamp it out. To a large extent, I think that Welsh speaking is in part a thumbing of the nose at the Saes, and it's a thumbing of the nose we thoroughly deserve. The best response we could ever make to it is to accept - even endorse - the use of Welsh.

FWIW, any English-only speaker in Wales will be able to access all kinds of courses in Welsh, often subsidised. If Thomas Cook Bangor's manager really is only an English speaker, he could acquire a good level of proficiency in Welsh in a surprisingly short space of time: Ms Pembrokestephen's son has just taken a job in the Library of Wales, and discovered that his three colleagues speak Welsh as a first language (he speaks very little Welsh). I suppose he could go off and have a hissy fit at the manager and insist that they conduct their work discussions in English. But he's not going to: he's asking them if they'll send him on a Welsh immersion course. That's how things get done here. Or, at least, should get done.

 

[pembrokestephen]

Why...? The staff were asked to speak in English since its Thomas Cook's language of business. They're free to speak Welsh about their private lives. I'm pretty sure that throughout the UK there are other minorities who have their own languages but they don't kick up a fuss just because they are asked to speak English.

You see, what makes my flesh crawl a little here is that, if your idea were taken up, the assumption would then automatically be that anyone speaking in Welsh was somehow goofing off. That is, effectively, stigmatising Welsh speaking in a similar kind of way to which it was being stigmatised in schools, still within living memory. As much as anything else, this would be a very, very dangerous road to start going down.

But let's set the language issue aside here - the concern seems to be that, if the manager doesn't know what they're saying, they might well not be talking about work. Regardless of whether it's a Welsh or an English workplace, that stinks. If the manager has a problem with the quality (or quantity) of work being done by his staff, then he can deal with that on its merits. Presumably that isn't the problem, otherwise he could just have taken their work performance up via the normal HR procedures. If they're sitting around talking, regardless of which language, when they should be doing their jobs, then there's clearly a problem. In any event, the fact that a couple of staff speaking their own language in their workplace has managed to become a national news story suggests that there's something pretty bloody badly wrong with Thomas Cook's employee relations, in Wales or throughout the UK...

Ie, Hindi, Gujarati, etc... And probably wider spoken in the UK than Welsh) The UK is a multi-cultural island. Should we force Managers to learn Gujarati..?

No. But we should not force employees to speak in their second language, either. You seem to premise your concept of employee relations on some kind of rather paranoid and distrustful basis - I'd hate to have to work for you!

 

[jæd]

The vast majority of Welsh people speak English-but in Bangor they dont-"company langauge"-what the fuck is a company language?-is that legally defined?-im pretty sure its not

Several companies I've worked for have stated that all business should be completed in English...

besides English is not a Romance language

I know. Thats why I didn't say it was. But it makes learning such language easier. Welsh is from a completely different langauge group.

 

[jæd]

You seem to premise your concept of employee relations on some kind of rather paranoid and distrustful basis - I'd hate to have to work for you!

Its called good communications. What happens if two people are talking in Welsh about a customer, and a third (non-Welsh speaker) has important information concerning that customer...?

 

[pembrokestephen]

Perhaps the manager doesn't feel that learning a minority language that is artifically maintained and substantially different to English isn't a long-term benefit... Espcially if they aren't interested in staying in Bangor for more one or two years...

First of all, Welsh is not a minority language in many parts of Wales. I was in a place on Friday night where the assumption was that people spoke Welsh.

Secondly, Welsh is not being "artificially maintained" - the efforts that are being made to keep it alive are just the efforts that are necessary to level the playing field a bit for a language which has no more than a million potentially native speakers in a country cheek by jowl with one of 50+ million all speaking English.

From a strictly functional and culturally ignorant point of view, you could just say "Feh, what's the point - let it die out", it's true. You'd probably even find quite a lot of people who'd agree with you.

But I suspect you'd find a lot of people, and not just Welsh people, who'd view such an attitude with concern. We've lost a lot of the cultural diversity in these islands already, and if the price of keeping what we've got - and preventing the UK sliding into some kind of hegemonistic homogeneity, with the same high streets, the same folk myths, literature, legends and history - is that of "artificially maintaining" a "minority language" which holds a rich heritage of poetry, music and literature within it, then I'd say "maintain away". You, meanwhile, can feel free to take your glass'n'steel cold-hearted urban capitalism and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[jæd]

You, meanwhile, can feel free to take your glass'n'steel cold-hearted urban capitalism and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

I fail to see whats cold-hearted about trying to maintain effective corporate communications...?

 

[ddraig]

excellent posts PBS
you can stay

my brother made a good point yesterday which you've mentioned also.
'it's pointless trying to explain it to them (english and others) as they simply can't comprehend it so do not understand and do not want to understand'

but instead of leaving it they wish to sneer and assert some misplaced superiority.
again

 

[jæd]

excellent posts PBS
you can stay

my brother made a good point yesterday which you've mentioned also.
'it's pointless trying to explain it to them (english and others) as they simply can't comprehend it so do not understand and do not want to understand'

but instead of leaving it they wish to sneer and assert some misplaced superiority.
again

Up to you, and I'm sorry you feel that way. Just seems good business sense to have everyone speaking the same language to allow good communications...

<unsubscribes>

 

[pembrokestephen]

Its called good communications. What happens if two people are talking in Welsh about a customer, and a third (non-Welsh speaker) has important information concerning that customer...?

Then, in that situation, the conversation switches to English. Is it your certain knowledge that this was the case here, or are you just playing "what if"?

 

[mwgdrwg]

<unsubscribes>

 

[pembrokestephen]

I fail to see whats cold-hearted about trying to maintain effective corporate communications...?

Somehow, jaed, that doesn't surprise me.

Obviously, I don't know you well, but you do often come across on these boards - to me, at least - as a kind of stereotypical Tory Boy 1980s money-grabbing wunderkind: sort of Harry Enfield's "Loadsamoney", perhaps with a little more style. Make money, make business run more efficiently, the only stat is the profit stat, and everything else must go by the board. I realise that there's probably a lot more to you than that, but even here on this thread, the gist of your argument seems to be "Welsh? Minority language? Pah, it'll get in the way of making a profit. Out with it!".

Maybe I judge you too harshly. Maybe not.

 

[pembrokestephen]

Yes. Interesting. Especially since there is something of a gulf between his protestations about "good corporate communications" and the business about "artificially maintained...minority languages".

I don't think Jaed's being entirely straight with us here about his agenda(s).

 

[Dic Penderyn]

I fail to see whats cold-hearted about trying to maintain effective corporate communications...?

then you're a stupid cunt.

 

[King Biscuit Time]

excellent posts PBS
you can stay

my brother made a good point yesterday which you've mentioned also.
'it's pointless trying to explain it to them (english and others) as they simply can't comprehend it so do not understand and do not want to understand'

but instead of leaving it they wish to sneer and assert some misplaced superiority.
again

I don't think that's necessarily true though. I think it's very, very hard to properly understand the situation from afar. While I knew a bit about the language and it's history when I moved to Wales in 1999, it took me a good few years to actually see how that translated to people's opinions and actions in the real world.

If you don't know the ins and outs of the situation, then you're best off having the good grace to acknowledge that you're not in enough of an enlightened position to form an opinion, and certainly not in a position to start aggressively vocalising it (or posting it on U75). Most peeps probably do this. Some don't (not pointing any fingers, Jaed).

 

[ddraig]

fair enough
(i'm still taking the toneing down lessons!)

 

[llantwit]

Dp

 

[llantwit]

Nah, fuck him KBT. Jaed's well out of order on this.
Anyone with an ounce of empathy and common sense to go with their finely honed profit-motive can see that to ban an indigenous language in its place of origin is just wrong. You don't have to have lived in Wales to understand that.
That argument stands on it's own.
Ironically, though, Jaed's 'tough love' management philosophy is also deeply flawed on its own terms. Surely it's obvious that this is just bad business sense. Not only have Thomas Cook alienated Welsh workers here, endangering their future productivity, but they've also pissed off a fairly large and very vocal group of Welsh consumers too. With these two combined it seems likely that this daft decision is bound to hit their profits.
For all his capitalist bluster I don't think Jaed really understands business very well at all. In the globalised market the companies that understand and cater for local differences (or who at least project that kind of image) are often the most successful, and not those that seek to apply a homogenous carbon copy image of themselves everywhere they operate and think 'fuck the natives'.

 

[lewislewis]

It makes me sad that the world is going in this direction and you can see that reflected in the UK.
I'm worried that the trend is that we will all speak one language, there will be one world government, one global culture, and on the local level you can see that- identikit towns across the UK, every High Street looks identical and has the same chains, it's depressing.

Hopefully i'm over-reacting, but we have to keep our native cultures and defend them vigorously, for humanity's sake. We're moving relentlessly towards identikit Britain, so get your ID card ready. It'll be check-points on the streets next.

I do not see how it is effective corporate or business policy to prevent the use of the Welsh language in a Welsh-speaking area ?! Their business has probably already lost out on it, and good, they deserve it.

 

[niclas]

Nobody seems to have pointed out that Thomas Cook is a German owned multinational. I wonder how the anti-Welsh brigade would react if they were expected to conduct business in German... for the good of corporate communications of course.

 

[Gavin Bl]

beside anything else, if there is member of staff who can speak Gujarati, then what's the harm in them using it to help a customer whose English is poor. Any decent company would see multilingual staff as a benefit. Even in B&Q, they get multilingual staff to wear badges showing what languages they speak other than English.

I agree its particularly crap in the case of Welsh given its indigenous status, but it would be a mistake to say its OK, if its a foreign language. If its better for the customer, and the member of staff can speak it, why bother. Its not like the numbers will tally up differently cos the conversation was in Spanish. And unless the management plan to listen to every single conversation, you could just as easily do something dodgy in English - by speaking quietly

 

[Ben Bore]

I booked a flight in a Thomas Cook a year ago in English and they still managed to balls it up.

 

[Radar]

This could all turn academic very quickly.

Thomas Cook have just announced 150 store closures. I wonder how many of them will be in N. Wales ?? (Actually it could work out well for N.Wales. TC may be so worried about creating another shit storm in the press they might favour keeping more of the branches up there open than the figures suggest)

Oh, and a quicky for anyone who might know this.

In Ireland, the irish speaking areas designated as such by the government are collectively known as An Gaeltacht.

Is there a Welsh equivalent ? Maybe not officially designated as such, but widely used in Wales itself.

 

[mwgdrwg]

Is there a Welsh equivalent ? Maybe not officially designated as such, but widely used in Wales itself.

Maybe "y Fro Gymraeg".