This is England

[Dhimmi]

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[Reno]

Saw it yesterday and it's good, though there seems to be a pattern to Meadows films that is getting a bit repetitive. As with a few of his other films this starts out as a comedy, then a psychotic character turns up, there is some tension as to when psycho blows his top and after that the film peters out towards the end. The first half hour is best, because Meadows is so good in creating believable characters, but once the plot kicks into gear it's fairly easy to figure out what's going to happen.

As always Meadows gets fantastic performances out of his cast, especially from the young boy who is the central character. Despite a few minor anachronisms, the 80's are evoked in all their gruesome fashion glory. One thing I found a bit strange was that there is one character who appears to be fairly important from the start, but who then pretty much disappears from the film.

 

[Orang Utan]

Yeah, it's a shame about Woody - he was a great character

 

[Dubversion]

but i think that's a brave move on Meadows part - you warm to Woody quickly, and you miss him when he goes. So in a sense you're going through a similar process to those who end up on the other side of the split from Woody and Lal et al. The happy initial stages are soured and ruined..

Worked very well for me

 

[Reno]

but i think that's a brave move on Meadows part - you warm to Woody quickly, and you miss him when he goes. So in a sense you're going through a similar process to those who end up on the other side of the split from Woody and Lal et al. The happy initial stages are soured and ruined..

Worked very well for me

It didn't feel like it was a conscious move, more like Meadows didn't know what to do with Woody once he served his function in the plot. Combo, who replaces him as the new father figure in Shauns life, may be what creates the conflict in the film, but I didn't find him an equally compelling character.

I'm increasingly feeling like Meadows keeps making the same film over and over. With the three films I've seen I like the first act best when we are introduced to his utterly believable characters and enviroment, but later on he relies too much on psychotic villains to keep things moving. Despite a great performance by Stephen Graham it all becames a bit predictable once Combo turns up. Introduce a racist skinhead into a racially diverse community and it's not difficult to figure out where things are going to go.

 

[Dubversion]

It didn't feel like it was a conscious move, more like Meadows didn't know what to do with Woody once he served his function in the plot. Combo, who replaces him as the new father figure in Shauns life, may be what creates the conflict in the film, but I didn't find him an equally compelling character.

we'll have to disagree - to me it seemed intentional, and very effective. I genuinely felt sad Woody had gone, I'm sure the others did too

I'm increasingly feeling like Meadows keeps making the same film. With the three films I've seen (this, Romeo and Dead Men's Shoes) I like the first act best when we are introduced to his uttelry believable characters and enviroment, but later on he relies too much on psychotic villains to keep things moving. Despite a great performance by Stephen Graham it all became a bit predictable once Combo turns up. Introduce a racist skinhead into a racially diverse community and it's not difficult to figure out where things are going to go.

Whilst I agree that all of his main films pivot on an act (acts) of extreme male violence, the story arc of Considine, Graham and Hoskins is entirely different... I think Combo is more complex, also, than you're giving him credit for. As for the point re: introducing a racist skinhead and the effect that would have, well no, it's not difficult to see what would happen, but that doesn't make it any less valid a point for drama - life can be very predictable sometimes.

 

[Pieface]

Spoilers

Combo's a total muddle - that's why he's so convincing. He isn't consistent in his behaviour - especially towards Milky and crucially, when he does lose it with him he loses it for reasons of envy, not racism.

Meadows really focuses on masculinity and especially directionless masculinity. He seems to be fixated on how dangerous young men are without direction or guidance. At the end of Dead Man's Shoes, Considine's character doesn't feel saved, or like his life is sorted out now that revenge is out the way - he's just alone again. His direction was only created briefly by avenging his brother.

Milky's the first character I can think of (of the Meadows films I've seen) that you know has a good family life and he gets destroyed for that. All the other men are lost. He doesn't really do women in his films.

 

[Reno]

Combo's a total muddle - that's why he's so convincing. He isn't consistent in his behaviour - especially towards Milky and crucially, when he does lose it with him he loses it for reasons of envy, not racism.

Meadows really focuses on masculinity and especially directionless masculinity. He seems to be fixated on how dangerous young men are without direction or guidance. At the end of Dead Man's Shoes, Considine's character doesn't feel saved, or like his life is sorted out now that revenge is out the way - he's just alone again. His direction was only created briefly by avenging his brother.

Milky's the first character I can think of (of the Meadows films I've seen) that you know has a good family life and he gets destroyed for that. All the other men are lost. He doesn't really do women in his films.

Maybe it's because so many other directors deal with ill directed male aggression (most famously Scorsese) that Meadows doesn't tell me anything very new there. Yes Combo is not strictly one dimensional, but the suggestion that he turned psycho because of a bad family background is hardly deep, nor would I place a lot of importance on that or on Milky's family (who we never meet)

The thing I really like about Meadows films is that even his most minor characters are so well written and acted that each of them could be at the centre of their own film. Unlike with Mike Leigh he doesn't condescent to his working class characters and unlike with Loach they are not transparently in the service of some overriding polemic.

And I disagree with you about the women. Even the relatively marginal character of Shaun's mother feels like a completely realised person rather than mere set dressing. The scene where she tells off Shaun's new mates for shaving his head, yet realising that despite their skinhead regalia they are basically good kids and that she can leave him in their care feels completely real and you just know then that she's a great mum. When Shaun turns to the dark side it also feels like a betrayal of her because we have some investment in her character. Later, when the plot kicks into gear and subtle observations like that get sidelined for testosterone explosions, that's when his films have less to say to me.

 

[Pieface]

I don't mean bad characterisation - you're right that they are fully realised - I just meant he never gives them centre stage. I wonder why not, since he's not bad at writing them.

I know the suggestion Combo's background is behind his problems isn't deep but would you not say that that is the key to the problems with most of Meadows' fuck ups? He just appears really fixated on that to me. Milky's chat about his family is the thing that sends Combo over the edge with him - which highlights where his pain is imo.

 

[El Sueno]

I can't wait to see this. And look, there's little Romeo Brass all grown up!

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Meadows is a very different director to Scorcese. For my money, Scorcese's films, especially his earlier, most-generally-praised ones like Taxi Driver, are unremittingly bleak and generally bloody depressing. I can appreciate them, but do not really love them, so they are quite unloveable.

Meadows, for all that his films deal with bleak subjects, counterbalances that with moments of pure hilarity. For instance, the "Elephant' bit in dead mans shoes. And just more generally, there's a lot of real lightness spread through his characters, even more so in This is England than DMS.

I've only discovered his films very recently, but for me he is one of the best directors on either side of the atlantic, for that mixture of darkness and light.

I do see your reservations re. his plotline - and romeo brass follows a similar formula - though.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Oh - and should have said - I'm struggling to think of another director who portrays characters so utterly brilliantly.

 

[Reno]

Meadows is a very different director to Scorcese.

Never said Meadows was anything like Scorsese, just that both are directors who frequently deal with masculine rage in their films.

Oh - and should have said - I'm struggling to think of another director who portrays characters so utterly brilliantly.

Yep, he's good with characters, reminds me a bit of early Bill Forsyth (Gregory's Girl, Local Hero)

 

[STFC]

Saw this the other day. I liked it, but was expecting more. The lad who plays Shaun puts in a cracking performance, as do most of the cast. I thought the film captured that bleak, early 80s look very well. Shaun's Mum for instance, looked like she'd just stepped out of Meantime, which This Is England reminded me of in some ways.

I think the copy I've got must be a rough cut, so I'm looking forward to seing the official version at the pictures.

 

[Part 2]

Just watched it for the second time. I have to say I love it, I didn't find it bleak at all.

First watch I was really only interested in how the story panned out but this time I was able to soak up more of the detail. With any film like this it's easy to sit and try and spot mistakes and ask whether it really represents the times as you remember. As far as the way the film looked I only had one issue and that was that Combo would have been driving a Datsun 120Y in my head. Not got a clue what that thing was he was driving, anyone?

There were so many things in it that I could identify with I found it beautiful. The shoe shop experience was the only thing I noticed first time round but the walking past big kids, wandering across fields with mates, mindless vandalism, hanging about on the park and the ignorant racism were all part of my youth. I looked at skins when I was a kid and wanted so much to be one but my Mum never had the trust and warmth of Shaun's and I never got past monkey boots. She was my favourite character although the performances by Turgoose and Graham were both excellent.

I'd guess Meadows uses an amount of improvisation and if anything that's where I thought the mistakes came in. There were some words I thought were a bit out of place but since I can't remember what they were it hardly matters.

I was a huge fan of Made in Britain and Meantime but they are films of my youth that at that age told me what kids like that were like, rather than a film that really represents what i saw around me at the time. Fucking great. Can't wait until it's on at the pictures to drag everyone I know along.