two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
yep, i'm a bit concerned about that, too. Also, someone did tell me it's a good idea to go with a dog you know will be around yours a lot. A mate here has a couple of dogs so i'm thinking of going with her.
Thinking about getting a dog
- Thread starter soulman
- Start date
yep, i'm a bit concerned about that, too. Also, someone did tell me it's a good idea to go with a dog you know will be around yours a lot. A mate here has a couple of dogs so i'm thinking of going with her.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Sheds - collie x lurchers are generally pretty good dogs. They don't need as much excercise because, rather like greyhounds they are more sprinters than duration runners. Excellent rabbiting dogs too, usually really respond well to training.
ETA: I wouldn't rescue your first ever dog. Try getting a good dog from a pup and see what you do with it before taking the more advanced step of ironing out a dog with 'issues'.
ETA: I wouldn't rescue your first ever dog. Try getting a good dog from a pup and see what you do with it before taking the more advanced step of ironing out a dog with 'issues'.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Collies are prone to a dog form of OCD, owing to their breed-specific trait of "clapping" (from whence we get the phrase "to clap ones eyes on".) This is where, in their natural environment, they super-focus on the sheep in the characteristic collie pose.
If they have been brought up in an environment without sheep, they will naturally tend to find something else to clap on. The classic is their own shadow or a light source (such as the reflected light from a watch). This tendency is often reinforced by a well-meaning but ignorant owner's tendency to find this funny and laugh at it.
However, it is seriously problematic, because it leads to the aforementioned dog-version of OCD, whereby the dog has to focus on every shadow/light in the same way that a person with OCD has to wash their hands 6 times before leaving the house (for example). This is known as shadowchasing. It leaves the dog in a highly stressed state; you will often see them drooling and their eyes will show telltale signs of stress, if you know what you are looking for.
I bring this up because:
a) If you get a collie pup, go out of your way to stop this happening. When you see it clapping on a shadow, distract it.
b) If you are getting an older collie, avoid one that shadowchases. Breaking it is as hard as breaking OCD in a human and it needs specialist care.
c) I don't know what the effect is of crossing a collie with a sighthound such as a lurcher, but the potential for a clapping/sightchasing crossover worries me. Again, I guess that it is down to the dog. However, along with the clapping tends to go a collie tendency to chase anything and not give up. If you are combining that with a sighthound's single-mindedness to chase, you could end up with a dog that you can't trust around anything that moves quickly. If you are getting something like that, you will have to be really careful in your training.
The shadowchasing, incidentally, is just yet another problem that most people don't even realise is a problem because most people have never bothered to actually learn about the body language of their pet.
If they have been brought up in an environment without sheep, they will naturally tend to find something else to clap on. The classic is their own shadow or a light source (such as the reflected light from a watch). This tendency is often reinforced by a well-meaning but ignorant owner's tendency to find this funny and laugh at it.
However, it is seriously problematic, because it leads to the aforementioned dog-version of OCD, whereby the dog has to focus on every shadow/light in the same way that a person with OCD has to wash their hands 6 times before leaving the house (for example). This is known as shadowchasing. It leaves the dog in a highly stressed state; you will often see them drooling and their eyes will show telltale signs of stress, if you know what you are looking for.
I bring this up because:
a) If you get a collie pup, go out of your way to stop this happening. When you see it clapping on a shadow, distract it.
b) If you are getting an older collie, avoid one that shadowchases. Breaking it is as hard as breaking OCD in a human and it needs specialist care.
c) I don't know what the effect is of crossing a collie with a sighthound such as a lurcher, but the potential for a clapping/sightchasing crossover worries me. Again, I guess that it is down to the dog. However, along with the clapping tends to go a collie tendency to chase anything and not give up. If you are combining that with a sighthound's single-mindedness to chase, you could end up with a dog that you can't trust around anything that moves quickly. If you are getting something like that, you will have to be really careful in your training.
The shadowchasing, incidentally, is just yet another problem that most people don't even realise is a problem because most people have never bothered to actually learn about the body language of their pet.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
My Dog (collie cross) used to clap eyes on food and drool. 
Good post though kabbles. I actually didn't know that condition existed.
Good post though kabbles. I actually didn't know that condition existed.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
nah i'd appreciate knowing - anyone other dog owners please just take it as fundamentalist dog ownership views.
I don't really have what you'd call a modern lifestyle, if the dog's hoping to spend a lot of time sitting watching tv she's going to be sadly disappointed. I spend a lot of time at the puter though, and if i've got work to do that's what i have to do.
I spend a fair time in the garden and have heard collies need work to do so if i could train her to go and fetch trowels and secateurs and perhaps struggle out with the odd spade it would all be a bonus.
Sounds like you'd be well suited to a dog, actually. Even a collie, despite what I have said before!
Collies are bred to work incredibly hard for an hour or two and then rest. This means that they will appreciate you exercising them hard and then allowing them to rest. The problem with them is that they will not stop. Ever. Which means that you have to know that and make them stop. A classic mistake is to go the other way and get them fitter and fitter and fitter, which means that they need more and more and more exercise. A working collie is more than capable of going for more than 100 miles a day and you don't want to get your dog up to that level!
If you intend to allow them to peg around for an hour then you are well set to have them just lie by your feet for a few hours whilst you work on the computer. They'll love that. As DotCom says, they are super-loyal and really just want to spend all their time with you, whatever you are doing. Just don't leave them by themself, for the same reason you wouldn't leave a toddler by itself.
Collies need mind exercise as much as body exercise. (So do all dogs, actually, but I digress). They love learning new tricks -- it can be a struggle to be constantly thinking of new things. So a collie would LOVE to learn to fetch your trowel. They are well capable of learning the difference between objects and going to get the right one.
Howevever, just remember that "smart" doesn't mean "easy to train" for the same reason that a smart child can be the number one problem kid in the school. "They're very manipulative" sounds funny and sweet, but it really isn't in the wrong situation. You need to deal with them with absolute consistency, because if you change the way you react just once then they will learn that they can sometimes get away with it and will remember.
If you do want to get a collie -- and it sounds like you might -- then I can recommend some seriously good books. Barbara Sykes is a collie expert that has rehabilitated some problem dogs and really seems to understand the breed. Understanding Border Collies is probably the definitive work that I've read.
In terms of general dog books, I can't recommend highly enough On Talking Terms With Dogs by the Norwegian behaviourist Turid Rugaas. She's incredible.
I'd offer a plea to ignore theories about "pack behaviour". There is a lot of evidence that this wolf-based concept simply doesn't apply to dogs, who have a far more complex relationship in some ways and simpler in others with humans than wolves do with each other. Dogs are not wolves.
Similarly, I'd steer clear of aversive-based training methods. People like Barbara Sykes and Turid Rugaas show that they really aren't necessary and, in the long run, you will have a far more solid relationship and more consistent behaviour from a dog that obeys you because it wants to than because it fears you.
Spion
I hear ya
I have a border. They're ace, but they are terriers so can be easily distracted from what you're trying to tell them. I get the impression some are better than others in that regards, but mine's just total mischief.
Here's the boy himself:
</gratuitous dog love post>
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
^^
That dog is looking out to the sea like a collie thatcomes round my mums house called "Trixie". All she does is dart out to the back fence straight away and "fox watch" (we have a dog flap and our garden backs onto the alotment). She looks just like that.
I don't really like the behaviour so like collies she needs a lot of distraction from the fence.
That dog is looking out to the sea like a collie thatcomes round my mums house called "Trixie". All she does is dart out to the back fence straight away and "fox watch" (we have a dog flap and our garden backs onto the alotment). She looks just like that.
I don't really like the behaviour so like collies she needs a lot of distraction from the fence.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
I know just the kind of behaviour you mean. Collies can be very obsessive in their behaviours alright.
This particular photo, however, just happened to have been captured at a moment when he went running into the water, just before he came running back out again!
This particular photo, however, just happened to have been captured at a moment when he went running into the water, just before he came running back out again!
My mate had a collie that had to be put down she was so mental - they took her on from some other owners who couldn't manage her. I've never seen a dog quite like it tbh. She would run until she was lame and had many many obsessive behaviours - she'd watch the back of the TV for hours if you didn't snap her out of it and had an OCD loop of the garden that she had to do every morning before she could get on with the day. Starting a game of fetch was an error of massive proportions.
It was gutting as she was such a sweet dog but whatever had happened to her at a young age had made her bonkers and she never recovered.
It was gutting as she was such a sweet dog but whatever had happened to her at a young age had made her bonkers and she never recovered.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Collie x lurcher is on the 'possibles' list
And interesting about rescue dog's history, will look out for that. Great couple of posts kabbes - c&p'd for later study. I had been a bit confused about collies 'needing work' but presumably that would mainly be keeping an eye out for anyone or anything coming into the garden, and house at night. So, like keeping a watch out for cats to see them off. Shame that foxes don't tend to come in gardens if there's a dog in there (I heard), though.
Interesting what you said about clapping, too, I'd never realised it stressed them out. And good to hear what you said about aversive training, have never liked the idea of that.
I'm a bit concerned getting a dog that is incredibly barky, i'd find it very difficult if that couldn't be trained out.
Consistency is one thing i might have problems with, but have a mate with a huge rottweiler type dog and i've watched him giving occasional suggestions to the dog about its behaviour that if the dog ignores he says 'ah ok don't then' so i thought i might avoid that type of approach.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Oh my god -- you should NEVER EVER tell the dog to do something unless you mean it and follow through with it. This is rule 1 stuff. What does that teach the dog? It teaches it that you aren't really serious and it can get away with not obeying you.
If you aren't fussed about whether the dog does something or not then don't tell it to do the thing. If you do tell it then follow through with it.
I think I've finally found a use for this:
Collies don't really "need work". They just need to be kept mentally stimulated. That can be via interactive dog toys or simply by inventing interesting games.
If you aren't fussed about whether the dog does something or not then don't tell it to do the thing. If you do tell it then follow through with it.
I think I've finally found a use for this:
Collies don't really "need work". They just need to be kept mentally stimulated. That can be via interactive dog toys or simply by inventing interesting games.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
This is a great post for showing the kind of problems you can end up with if you don't deal with a collie puppy properly. It's heartbreaking.
In general too, you should ideally avoid playing fetch with a collie puppy. They are so prone to obsessive behaviour and obsessing over balls is really common. Again, although this may look endearing, what is actually happening is that the dog is getting really stressed and wired. It's like a toddler entering a kind of hyperactive mode.
A better thing to do is "Find the ball". Make the dog sit and stay. Go and hide the ball somewhere. Come back and praise the stay. Release the stay and say "Where's bally?" (or whatever your trigger phrase is.) Wait until the dog brings the ball back. Praise the return.
Our collie absolutely loves this game and it doesn't get him wired. You can tell the difference because he would want to play fetch more and more and more, getting more and more hyper as he does so. But he'll play a few rounds of "Where's bally" and then take his toy to bed and have a snooze. Big difference.
You can extend the game too by hiding different objects and requesting the right one.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I think I've finally found a use for this:
Yes, i can get on with most dogs but that one is just big and stupid and takes no notice of me whatsoever when he comes round.
One thing i can foresee is if the dog is comfy somewhere and you feel like wanting to stroke her but she doesn't want to come across - i've always not bothered with other peoples' dogs and just left it. Thinking about it, best would be to instead ask if she wants to move and if she doesn't then fine. If I forget to do that and she doesn't come then presumably just walk over to where she is and lead her back for the stroking then let her do what she was doing before again.
One thing an owner of several dogs said was that she always leads the dogs through a door - never the other way round. That struck me as a bit too much, but on reflection again it does sound a good idea.
Oooooooooo toys what a nice idea
Bahnhof Strasse
Let's av ya fuckin' dancin'!
One collie/lurcher cross. Meet Stella:
She's 7 now and still runs like a nutter. She gets at least one hours walk per day, a lot more at the weekend. She has a good swim everyday, except when the river's flowing at its fastest. She'll also run alongside my bike for 5 miles along the towpath, then have a good swim and be barking at me as I get back on the bike as she wants to get running again.
kabbes' neck of the wood is where she goes most weekends and we'll be out for 4 or 5 hours with her.
That said, on days when the weather is really crap, she's happy to go and have a quick piss and shit and come in again and has never destroyed anything in the house, she's happy just to sleep.
She's my 3rd collie and they've all been magical.
However if I could afford one I'd love a Bergamasco.
As clever as collies, fiercly loyal and protective, also blinding with kids, known as a nanny dog.
She's 7 now and still runs like a nutter. She gets at least one hours walk per day, a lot more at the weekend. She has a good swim everyday, except when the river's flowing at its fastest. She'll also run alongside my bike for 5 miles along the towpath, then have a good swim and be barking at me as I get back on the bike as she wants to get running again.
kabbes' neck of the wood is where she goes most weekends and we'll be out for 4 or 5 hours with her.
That said, on days when the weather is really crap, she's happy to go and have a quick piss and shit and come in again and has never destroyed anything in the house, she's happy just to sleep.
She's my 3rd collie and they've all been magical.
However if I could afford one I'd love a Bergamasco.
As clever as collies, fiercly loyal and protective, also blinding with kids, known as a nanny dog.
fogbat
The Talibum
However if I could afford one I'd love a Bergamasco.
As clever as collies, fiercly loyal and protective, also blinding with kids, known as a nanny dog.
Are those dreads?
Incidentally, what kabbes is saying about collies rings so many bells - my friends have two and they show enormously ocd-ish behaviour, obsessing over playing fetch etc.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Before we go through any door with our dog, we make him sit and wait. We only allow him through the door when we say "OK". It can be really tiresome at times, but you have to be consistent.
In terms of wanting the dog to come to you, you really have to weigh up the situation. If you don't think that the dog will obey then don't ask it to come. Seriously. The dog is not a machine to be programmed. It's a living beast. Don't have the argument and lose, choose not to have the argument in the first place.
On top of that, I would say that if your dog is happy then leave it alone. It's your pet, but it deserves some time to itself. In fact, it needs time to itself. Pick your moments for your cuddles. There will be plenty of occasions when the dog is not comfortable in a corner and wants to come to you.
Basically, good training isn't just a set of commands or rules, it's a whole mindset that you need to get into 100% of the time. It's very rewarding though when you manage it.
I don't want to give the impression that I'm perfect, by the way. We've made a fuck-tonne of mistakes and continue to do so. I'd say that we're in the top 10% of dog owners in terms of our approach and it appears that we have the perfect set up for a dog, but I'm still not convinced that even we should actually own a dog. It's tough if you want to get it right.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
She's beautiful!One collie/lurcher cross. Meet Stella:
She's 7 now and still runs like a nutter. She gets at least one hours walk per day, a lot more at the weekend. She has a good swim everyday, except when the river's flowing at its fastest. She'll also run alongside my bike for 5 miles along the towpath, then have a good swim and be barking at me as I get back on the bike as she wants to get running again.
What river does she go swimming in?
We MUST have crossed paths at some point, you know. And there aren't THAT many people with collie-types in those woods.
Bahnhof Strasse
Let's av ya fuckin' dancin'!
Are those dreads?
Yep. They don't come till they're about 2 years old. Until then they're...
Which is just too cute.
fogbat said:
And yeah, Stella's quite obsessive, especially about tennis balls. Tend not to take one out with us as when we do she'll not play with any other dogs, just keeps staring at whichever pocket the ball is in.
Bahnhof Strasse
Let's av ya fuckin' dancin'!
I live very close to the Thames. Your woods are about 20 minutes away by car, but such lovely woods that we spend most of our spare time traipsing through them.
If your dog ever gets humped by a collie, say hi to Stella. Humping is yet another of her obsessions.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Ben has only ever humped once in the time we have had him. It was when we had all that snow and he was megaexcited. The kids in the street were all out in the field next to the street, tobogganing. Ben was running all over the place and having a great time. Then when the smallest kid reached the end of his run, Ben pelted over and humped the crap out of him.
Very embarassing and yet so very funny.
Bahnhof Strasse
Let's av ya fuckin' dancin'!
Oh Christ, the snow! She went in to humping overdrive that day.
When she was 12 weeks old we took her to a pub that had a resident terrier. The terrier started to hump her, the regulars cheered, Stella shook him off and humped him back. She's very dominant and ever since she's displayed her dominance via the hump.
Embarrassing as at times, but very satisfying when you come across some twat with his rotty called Tyson and it gets a good shagging off a girl.
When she was 12 weeks old we took her to a pub that had a resident terrier. The terrier started to hump her, the regulars cheered, Stella shook him off and humped him back. She's very dominant and ever since she's displayed her dominance via the hump.
Embarrassing as at times, but very satisfying when you come across some twat with his rotty called Tyson and it gets a good shagging off a girl.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Inventing interesting games is easy. Some games we used to play with my dog were:
"hide the tennis ball"
Dog goes out the room, I hide the tennis ball, dog has to find the tennis ball. Reward is game with tennis ball. (edit, A bouncy game, not really fetch, fetch was for sticks)
"find the food".
Hide nibble of food in one palm behind back, close palms and then show your fists (on with food in) to dog. Dog's task is to correctly paw the fist with the food. Reward = a tasty treat.
"the rat".
I had a speacial pair of tatty gloves that I used to wear. Basically your hands (with gloves) are the rat. Go down on all fours. Rat attacks the dogs legs (grab them, or swipe under him) dog can nip your hands back (hense the gloves) but the main aim of the game is just to avoid slipping up, or dogs legs being grabbed. My dog really loved this game becuase it totraly knackered him out and got him agile (lots of avoding the rat by jumping, or moving his feet about in correct sequence when you go for a "floor swipe"), it also allowed him to nip and bite a bit, and he knew he wasn't hurting me.
Gawd, this thread is making me so broody for a dog...
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
The rat sounds like an interesting game.
My dog has finally allowed me to achieve my lifelong dream of being a world-class street magician. At least in my dog's mind. He is SO easy to fool with sleight of hand. This is my favourite:
Show dog ball. Put hands behind back. Pull right hand out suddenly -- dogs head snaps to it and sees no ball. Put right hand back. Repeat with left hand. Dog is interested. Now put ball under shirt behind back. Pull BOTH hands out. At this point, my dog thinks I am Jesus or something and capable of making balls disappear.
Similarly, he has a squashy ball. I can wave my hands together, squish it and reverse one hand so that he is looking at one palm and one back of hand, with the ball hidden towards me in the hand that is facing away from him. He doesn't seem to understand how the basic grip-function works, so doesn't realise that he is being cheated and just thinks I've made the ball disappear.
In both tricks, he goes hunting all round the room for the ball whilst I larf and larf and larf.
I am mean owner.
My dog has finally allowed me to achieve my lifelong dream of being a world-class street magician. At least in my dog's mind. He is SO easy to fool with sleight of hand. This is my favourite:
Show dog ball. Put hands behind back. Pull right hand out suddenly -- dogs head snaps to it and sees no ball. Put right hand back. Repeat with left hand. Dog is interested. Now put ball under shirt behind back. Pull BOTH hands out. At this point, my dog thinks I am Jesus or something and capable of making balls disappear.
Similarly, he has a squashy ball. I can wave my hands together, squish it and reverse one hand so that he is looking at one palm and one back of hand, with the ball hidden towards me in the hand that is facing away from him. He doesn't seem to understand how the basic grip-function works, so doesn't realise that he is being cheated and just thinks I've made the ball disappear.
In both tricks, he goes hunting all round the room for the ball whilst I larf and larf and larf.
I am mean owner.
TitanSound
Mr Beardy Drummer
Is that your dog?
S/he looks like mine.
They are the best dogs. They're not easy though. Give them an inch and they take a mile. They're funny fuckers though. Very confident. Greedy. Lazy. Can get into trance-like states.
I love them. Oh and in a recent test, they are the most tolerable dogs around children.
Totally agree. My brother had one called Harvey. I used to house sit and look after him when they were on holiday. Such a lovely, lovely dog. Great temperament always wanting to play or just be given affection.
Really good with small kids also, my niece and nephew were heartbroken when he died last year. I developed quite a bond with him too as I was went with my brother to collect him when he was a puppy
