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"These clever people who've captured the state"

I guess all that fancy technology means you have to take massive bungs from union-hating millionaires. But think of the advantages, you can avoid paying attention to all those nasty socialists in the rank and file and still be victorious.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
GPWM. You think it's a few thousand, I think it's several million, the journalist identified 800,000 electors in 100 marginals. My point is that everyone has a vote and the election is won by adding to the bedrock (horrible word - sounds like something out of the Flintstones) support.

How would you have parties serious about winning behave differently?
 
You're missing the point. By taking massive bungs from union-busting millionaires to pay for this stuff, because the rank and file are so alienated that they can't be counted on to vote Labour anymore, still less campaign, nuLabour is putting itself in hock to those millionaires.

Seriously, what sort of quid pro quo do you think Sir Ghulam Noon expects for his dosh given that he's mostly famous for implacable resistance to letting his employees form trade unions and was only forced to back down because employment law forced him to?
 
Fullyplumped said:
GPWM. You think it's a few thousand, I think it's several million, the journalist identified 800,000 electors in 100 marginals. My point is that everyone has a vote and the election is won by adding to the bedrock (horrible word - sounds like something out of the Flintstones) support.

How would you have parties serious about winning behave differently?

If they could find a way to appeal to the 40% of people who didnt vote at the last election they would have a landslide. :)
 
memespring said:
If they could find a way to appeal to the 40% of people who didnt vote at the last election they would have a landslide. :)
Very true. What would people here think about compulsory voting? The right to vote was hard fought for and perhaps people ought not to have the right to fail to do so, even if it was to spoil their ballot paper or vote "none of the above". Personally. I quite like the idea of purple fingers to show who hasn't voted, like in Iraq!

rt3y89.jpg
 
When nuLabour introduce compulsory voting, we'll know they're fucking desperate. If you want people to vote, give them something that's in their interest that they can vote *for*. Failing to do that and trying to force them to vote anyway is so fucking typical of this elitist authoritarian bunch of sleazy creeps.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
If you want people to vote, give them something that's in their interest that they can vote *for*.
Wouldn't it be in any party's interest to make sure its programme was more appealing to the minority of refuseniks if there was compulsory voting? Just a thought!
 
Compulsory voting is a stupid authoritarian scheme to confer fake legitimacy on nuLabour. So I've got a choice between a shit sandwich and a shit sundae?

And when I choose, because I'll go to jail if I don't some sanctimonious war criminal and traitor can smugly claim that the election results prove that the British public actually likes the taste of shit.

Fuck that.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Compulsory voting is a stupid authoritarian scheme to confer fake legitimacy on nuLabour. So I've got a choice between a shit sandwich and a shit sundae? And when I choose, because I'll go to jail if I don't some sanctimonious war criminal and traitor can smugly claim that I like eating his shit. Fuck that!!!
Bernie Gunther - charmingly put, you grumpy druid. Why do you assume that if compulsory voting was introduced into the UK, it would also be compulsory to vote for a particular party? :confused:

There are many good arguments for compulsory voting, but the reason why it's unlikely that a government would try it is that many non-voters would resent having to get out of the house to cast their ballot and would vote for an opposition party out of spite.
 
I don't assume it would be compulsory to vote for a particular party. What I assume is that some cynical nuLabour advisor creeps have made the calculation that if the Labour voters who are currently staying home were forced to vote, many would hold their nose and vote Labour rather than Lib-Dem or Tory.
 
Meanwhile, you're quite effectlvely derailing this thread onto compulsory voting and away from the fact that nuLabour is taking huge bungs from anti-union millionaires in return for peerages and most probably anti-union laws.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
away from the fact that nuLabour is taking huge bungs from anti-union millionaires in return for peerages and most probably anti-union laws.

And from the original (slightly deeper, if only longer-term) point that the state has been seized by a bunch of technocrats...
 
laptop said:
And from the original (slightly deeper, if only longer-term) point that the state has been seized by a bunch of technocrats...
Well, that's kind of the key point. It's a closed system, that requires no input from the Labour rank and file to operate. All it requires is PR technocrats to figure out which middle-class people in key marginals to target and how, and a vast budget to pay for all the consultants. There are only a few control points in that system though and one of them is the desires of the anti-union millionaires supplying under-the-table cash to fund the technocrats activity.
 
One of the few other control points, however, is this: only some tens of thousands of people remembering "I'm not voting for those sleazy fuckers" come the next election and the one after could keep nuLabor out of power for another decade.

Menzies Campbell, this can be your life... but you'll probably let it slip to Cameron.
 
Well yes, but that's kind of a state transition and the Lib-Dems or the Tories would be worse. To get a useful state transition, you need a better alternative that actually does pay some attention to the views of someone besides rich donors and sleazy consultants. Something that all those alienated Labour voters could actually get behind. Without that alternative, we have nothing worthwhile available via the democratic process.
 
Kid_Eternity said:
Sure but coming from her those words are a little hollow...

Yeah, I totally I agree. She really couldn't have damaged herself more badly than she did when she said she'd resign, then stayed on, then resigned later, then sounded like a woman scorned. It's pretty pathetic.
 
Fullyplumped said:
Bernie Gunther, you're fixated on these mythical few thousand people, who all presumably have 4x4s and no principles. The reality is that any political party interested in forming a government to put its programme into action has to keep its base of loyal support, and also win or retain the support of millions of people all over the country in hundreds of constituencies who don't personally identify with the party's ethos. They particularly include "hard working families" who want to see the benefits of their efforts and sacrifices they feel they've made, in the form of improved public services and enough disposable income to buy the things they aspire to. Some of them may be U75 readers, but many will not be. Here in Scotland they include voters in Renfrewshire, many of the Edinburgh constituencies, Ayrshire, and the Borders which used to elect Tories and now return Labour MPs in UK general elections. It will be no different in England, I'm sure, as Bob Marshall-Andrews can testify. ;)

I think I live in one of these constituencies, Aberdeen South.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Still doesn't mean she's wrong about the topic of this thread though.

Of course not but her being right (in this case) shouldn’t blind us to her opportunism.
 
Nor should the stuff about resignations blind us to the fact that she's very effectively summarised what a lot of people are thinking.


Specifically that nuLabour is now a sleazy closed system, where anti-union millionaires provide big wodges of under the table cash, to fund high-tech US-style political wizardry which delivers election victories by targetting PR at one or two of percent of the electorate and effectively ignoring everybody else.
 
maybe

Fullyplumped said:
Isn't Rawnsley's point that this kind of thing's been going on for ages in the darkest secrecy? Labour's reforms are what has brought it out into the open.


so these guys had looked at the system closely enough to know how to appear to fix it and then go round it. ++BAD
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Nor should the stuff about resignations blind us to the fact that she's very effectively summarised what a lot of people are thinking.


Specifically that nuLabour is now a sleazy closed system, where anti-union millionaires provide big wodges of under the table cash, to fund high-tech US-style political wizardry which delivers election victories by targetting PR at one or two of percent of the electorate and effectively ignoring everybody else.

It's more like about 5% - 10% of the electorate and they can only do that because they can usually win in their 'heart-lands' without even trying. The Lib Dems however have shown that even their 'heart-lands' can be taken when someone else puts in enough time and resources.
 
Actually, looking at the article again, 800,000 was the figure Michael Howard was quoting for 'the people who matter'

If you look at the numbers for nuLabour they give, it works out more like 300,000, which implies an even more effective targetting of PR efforts in marginals and even less effective representation for the rest of the people.

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/news/05-04-06.htm
 
Bernie Gunther said:
It's a closed system, that requires no input from the Labour rank and file to operate. All it requires is PR technocrats to figure out which middle-class people in key marginals to target and how, and a vast budget to pay for all the consultants.
Another argument for proportional representation ! :)
 
Donna Ferentes said:
And it's also largely acquiesced in by the media village, who will report "Blair is under pressure" but will also report "no smoking gun" until the cows come home, because they don't actually disagree with it.
Too true.

The day Saddam's statue fell I was in the middle of an assessment day for a place on a journalism course at Cardiff (reputedly one of the best journalist schools in the UK). My performance in the assessment tests was apparently 'excellent', but I came unstuck in the interview.

The journalism course leader asked a topical question, given the days events, can't remember what now, but it seemed more a personal question, not 'how would you report this?' but what do you think about this? (My responses would have been different, my reporting does not necessarily reflect my personal opinions, that's where editorialising comes in.)

Anyway, I think the news had already begun to filter through about the atrocities in Fallujah by then, although I can't recall the exact timescale, and I made a comment comparing Tony Blair and Saddam Hussein. And he followed up asking 'So you think there's a moral equivalence between Tony Blair and Saddam Hussein?' The course leader seemed quite affronted. Yes, I said. But the second interviewer on the panel realised I'd dug myself into a hole with this obviously pro-Blair course leader, and started saying: "I think she meant..." But by then, the damage was done. Funnily enough, I wasn't offered a place.

To my mind, it's all a matter of scale (and accountability/deniability/whether according to Dubya or Blair God was on your side). I don't have any up to date estimates as to latest casualties figures, that old report in the Lancet put it at 90k-100k civilians dead in the war for oil, oops, sorry, war on terror. And since then many more have been maimed and killed.

When the attorney general's advice was published (or at least part of it), I emailed an old school friend who's serving in Baghdad and told him to seek independent legal advice about the legality of the orders he was following, because I'm fairly fluent in legalese and believe the way it was written (if you can read legalese) is that the AG certainly was not totally convinced war was legal.

To this day, I stand by my comments about there being a moral equivalence between Saddam Hussein and Tony Blair, they each have a large amount of blood on their hands, the only difference is a matter of scale and their respective justifications for their actions.

I often wonder whether, with the benefit of the intervening revelations and hindsight, particularly in the light of the recent articles coming out of the US from right-wing commentators about how wrong they were, and the likes of Johann Hari's article, maybe the course leader's also realised I may have had a point all along?

I'm actually glad I didn't get a place on that particular course, but it really saddens me that anyone who challenges vested interests or commonly held political or other beliefs of lecturers, isn't going to get a chance. And it saddens me that over the past three years newly graduated journalists have probably been churned out of that school whose opinions and attitudes are probably cloned from those of the course leader, when journalism should be all about questioning.
 
No one likes a prophet in their own lifetime ;)

I often wonder whether, with the benefit of the intervening revelations and hindsight, particularly in the light of the recent articles coming out of the US from right-wing commentators about how wrong they were, and the likes of Johann Hari's article, maybe the course leader's also realised I may have had a point all along?
 
Bear said:
It's more like about 5% - 10% of the electorate and they can only do that because they can usually win in their 'heart-lands' without even trying. The Lib Dems however have shown that even their 'heart-lands' can be taken when someone else puts in enough time and resources.

And on a more local basis so have the BNP. There is no guarentee that people disgusted with the current sleaze and shenanigans will continue to either abstain or turn to the soft option of the Lib Dems, its worth remembering that the far right vote has been moving up almost continuously over the past 5 years, proved again last wek by the near dead, NF getting over 7% of the vote in a local council by election in Hemel Hempstead.
 
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