"There's nothing you can do about it"

[dennisr]

... I agree there are practical things that can be done but the point I was making is that without being able to carry the majority of people in the workplace change is not going to be achieved.

Also a lot of workers don't consider organising because they have not been educated about the value of organisation

YYou seem to have answered your own questions about what needs to be done KJ.

ps i would not recommend the scabing you mentioned earlier though - not good for the soul

 

[poster342002]

I and others have made a number of suggestions already, including those contructive things you can do.

And if thsoe things have been tried a thousand times already to no avail?

 

[dennisr]

And if thsoe things have been tried a thousand times already to no avail?

kill yourself?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And if thsoe things have been tried a thousand times already to no avail?

Give it a rest.

 

[poster342002]

YYou seem to have answered your own questions about what needs to be done KJ.

ps i would not recommend the scabing you mentioned earlier though - not good for the soul

How do you 'educate' a workforce of individualistic, pro-managerieal mass-scabbers if you're unfortunate enough to work in one of the many workplaces like that? What happens when your attempts to 'educate' fall on deaf ears and you get told to shut up and get on with your work - by those same "comrades" who are most probably a micro-grade above you and determined to make sure you know "who's in charge"?

NOBODY has yet answered just HOW this is acheived. In fact, it's normally brushed under the carpet as an inconveniently awkward fact to acknowledge - so much easier to go "Rah! Rah! Rah!".

 

[Donna Ferentes]

so much easier to go "Rah! Rah! Rah!".

Which nobody is doing, of course.

Jesus.

 

[poster342002]

Which nobody is doing, of course.

Jesus.

Oh, come on - a handfull of job centres and dole offices go on strike (while other departments scab) and the left behaves like the revolution is underway.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

No they don't.

You're completely without perspective. Which means of course that you just see what you want and don't see what you don't want.

 

[dennisr]

How do you 'educate' a workforce of individualistic, pro-managerieal mass-scabbers if your unfortunate enough to work in one of the many workplaces like that? What happens when your attempts to 'educate' fall on deaf ears and you get told to shut up and get on with your work - by those same "comrades" who are most probably a micro-grade above you and determined to make sure you know "who's in charge"?

NOBODY has yet answered just HOW this is acheived. In fact, it's normally brushed under the carpet as an inconveniently awkward fact to acknowledge - so much easier to go "Rah! Rah! Rah!".

what exactly is the question you want answered ?- do you think you are the only person to have to go through this process? I imagine your constant repetition of 'it's all hopeless, everyone else is just too stupid' is very similer to the reaction of your work colleagues that you condemn. Clearly it is very demoralising - honestly, i would seriously recommend that you move on mate - get a completely different job. Change your life is you cannot help others change thiers.

I;ve worked in all sorts from building sites and kitchens to liberal ngo offices and leftie printers - some of the people I have worked with are foolish, some ain't. If it seems pointless walk away ...

 

[poster342002]

You're completely without perspective. Which means of course that you just see what you want and don't see what you don't want.

Oddly enough - that's exactly the point that can be levelled at the "Rah! Rah!" left: it just sees what it wants and ignores the rest of the grim reality.

 

[dennisr]

Oh, come one - a handfull of job centres and dole offices go on strike (while other departments scab) and the left behaves like the revolution is underway.

Haven't noticed that myself - what planet are you on again?

 

[dennisr]

Oddly enough - that's exactly the point that can be levelled at the "Rah! Rah!" left: it just sees what it wants and ignores the rest of the grim reality.

the reality being "its all hopeless - everyone is out for themselves - give up hope all ye who enter here - ad nauseum' - well thanks for the insight - its really opened my eyes

 

[poster342002]

i would seriously recommend that you move on mate - get a completely different job. Change your life is you cannot help others change thiers.

How impractical. Where's my money to pay the bills going to come from in the meatime? We've come to a very sorry pas when the left's answer to crappy workplaces is to suggest getting another job. It's the other side of the same "if you don't like it, there's the door" coin.

In fact, thinking about it, your response is actually the most honest so far: the left hasn't any sort of clue or idea as to what to do about the appalling state of workers' conciousness and solidarity apart from suggesting moving to one where it might be a little better. So, two-cheers to you, dennisr.

 

[poster342002]

the reality being "its all hopeless - everyone is out for themselves - give up hope all ye who enter here - ad nauseum' - well thanks for the insight - its really opened my eyes

You also don't change a situation by asserting in the face of all evidence that it doesn't exist - as many of the left seem to.

 

[cockneyrebel]

This will cheer you up

Now is the time for a new party

2006 will be a year of struggle. The pensions revolt, despite two terrible sell-outs last year, is far from over. Firefighters, local authority workers, lecturers and a plethora of private sector workers are preparing strikes. Civil servants, teachers, postal and tube workers are doing likewise over jobs, pay and conditions.

 

[poster342002]

double post deleted (again!)

 

[poster342002]

what planet are you on again?

Not the one in the bizarre parallel universe that the rest of the left seems to live in.

 

[poster342002]

This will cheer you up

Now is the time for a new party

Heard it all before, mate. Still maybe this time, this time...

 

[cockneyrebel]

Come on, one last push comrade........

Anyway you've got nothing to worry about. The course of historical materialism means a communist society is inevitable.

You could move to Venezula if you wanted a bit of action.

 

[poster342002]

The course of historical materialism means a communist society is inevitable..

So's the second of coming of Christ, in theory. In reality, highly unlikely.

More likely now the "the common ruination of all", which Marx actually warned was a distinct possibility if progressive forces didn't get their act together in time.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Not the one in the bizarre parallel universe that the rest of the left seems to live in.

i.e. "they don't, but I'll claim they do as a way of obscuring the fact that I'm doing precisely the same thing in the opposite direction".

 

[Donna Ferentes]

How impractical. Where's my money to pay the bills going to come from in the meatime? We've come to a very sorry pas when the left's answer to crappy workplaces is to suggest getting another job. It's the other side of the same "if you don't like it, there's the door" coin.

Actually, it was very obviously personal rather than explicitly political advice: if you're struggling where you are, it might be best for you personally to find somewhere else. It's good advice in general.

In fact, thinking about it, your response is actually the most honest so far: the left hasn't any sort of clue or idea as to what to do about the appalling state of workers' conciousness and solidarity apart from suggesting moving to one where it might be a little better.

As you haven't either, and as you, in fact, insist that everything is hopeless, this is more than a little hypocritical.

 

[poster342002]

i.e. "they don't, but I'll claim they do as a way of obscuring the fact that I'm doing precisely the same thing in the opposite direction".

Donna Ferentes, you're a keen chess player, I understand. So I imangine you can see we've reached the messegeboard equivalent of just having two kings left on the board - a sort of stalemate of debate.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well, not really. Actually we both have plenty of material left, but you think you're just down to yourself.

 

[cockneyrebel]

So's the second of coming of Christ, in theory. In reality, highly unlikely.

Personally I'm holding out for the second coming of Marx. Sounds like a dodgy video

 

[mentalchik]

Apologies for jumping into this thread coz i'm not sure i completely understand everything you are talking about,


but, this post just made my blood boil....

There is something you can do about it, even if there is no representation: leave. Many many people lack faith in their ability to find employment. Truth is that if you have skills to do one job you have skills to do another. People act like the sky will fall on their heads if they ever left their often pointless wage-slave jobs. It aint so. They are driven by materialism and gullibility.

How is having to pay the bills, buy food, keep a roof over your families head materialism ?

I did try very hard to get a better job than the one i have and am trying hard to get out of it but in the mean time i have responsibilties that unfortunately take money to do !

I would love to know what the above poster does ? (if working) Is there a family to be supported ? Are they young ?

I find the post extemely patronising tbh !

 

[dennisr]

Actually, it was very obviously personal rather than explicitly political advice: if you're struggling where you are, it might be best for you personally to find somewhere else. It's good advice in general.

Exactly, poster - i assumed you intended me to waste my time with you trying to argue that you should take your head out your selt-indulgent arsehole so thought it more constructive to offer genuine advice based on your own limited outlook and lack of confidence in the ability to change others. I suggested that you therefore change your own situation.

Your response says a lot about your narrow-minded preconceptions about other individuals (caracatured as 'the left' apparently) but feck all about those you are caracaturing.

Do you think you are the only poor c**t who has had the worry of paying their rent you self-indugent fool?

The other option was kill yourself.

 

[dennisr]

Personally I'm holding out for the second coming of Marx. Sounds like a dodgy video

you still on the sauce cockney?