"There's nothing you can do about it"

[Donna Ferentes]

good thread this, back later as WOW says

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Imo, thats just it, we have to go back to first principles, shopstewards, grass roots organizing, looking after/out for the person next to you, not gallivanting around the world, protesting every global injustice, ala Globalise Resistance/swp, and the farce that is Respect.

I don't think you can work that way: insist we do these things and not those things. If you do, then all you end up doing is cutting yourself off from (and denouncing) the rest, because peopke want to do a broad spectrum of things. The trick is to get people who do one thing to be interested in another (which is why the existence of organised labour is so important, as per my posting above) not to cut them off from one another.

But tomorrow (well, later) for the discussion. Today the pasta.

 

[poster342002]

Another way of looking at this is that many people who, in the past, would have considered themselves managers - or, like teachers and lecturers, fundamentally above that sort of thing - are, these days in unions. They can be petty bullies - or they can jump the other way.

In my experience, it's always that they become petty-bullies (regardless of union membership). Again, I spent years trying to get these types to treat us as comrades rather than subordinates to be mucked around. A total waste of time - it always ends up with us making the alowances and them carrying on as usual in the interests of this idiotic one-way solidrity.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think you've got a problem when you use the term "always". It isn't always. You and I will both know people of radical and/or trade-union hue who are nevertheless in some sort of management position.

Again, you know, perspective. It's why I study history.

 

[poster342002]

I think you've got a problem when you use the term "always". It isn't always. You and I will both know people of radical and/or trade-union hue who are nevertheless in some sort of management position.

It's been "always" as long as I've known it.

And, I've even known of management types who simulataneously preach their radical oh-so-lefty politics and trade-unionism one minute and then go on to bully their subordinate workers the very next and threaten them with company disciplinary proceedures. They see no shame or contradiction in it.

 

[mutley]

Imo, thats just it, we have to go back to first principles, shopstewards, grass roots organizing, looking after/out for the person next to you, not gallivanting around the world, protesting every global injustice, ala Globalise Resistance/swp, and the farce that is Respect.

The biggest movements in the last few years have been precisely round a global issues eg war and debt. You're setting up a false choice. We need to think global act local - not see the two as contradictory. (i would agree that cross continental gallivanting has to be only 'once you've done your homework' ie done the local activity)

As far as 'the farce that is Respect' goes the latest local stuuf we've done here is get people out in an area of south brum that we aren't actually standing in to leaflet against council house sell offs.

Stop fucking slagging off people who are attemting to act, and get on with the stuff you described in the first two lines of ur post!

 

[treelover]

At least you accept the first part
TL keeping out of an almighty row on the p/p boards, for now!

(i would agree that cross continental gallivanting has to be only 'once you've done your homework' ie done the local activity)

 

[cockneyrebel]

We need to think global act local

Fucking hate that slogan......it just reminds me of SWP robotrots now days......

 

[Groucho]

Waste of time trying to strike. We had a cross civil service strike that made fuck all difference and frontline jobs were still lost and general conditions worsened.

Cant' be arsed to support the next one. The calculation I'm looking at making is a few days ostracisim from the union activists who no power for crossing the line or being victimised subtly by managment who have masses of power. I'd take leave rather than lose money by going on strike but I bet there a loads more people who look at that calculation and decided to cross the line - and to be honest I can't blame them. When you have a situation where there are enough people who refuse to support a strike because they are worried about paying thier bills what is the point in the committed ones striking?

Waste of time it really is. Solidarity really doesn't exist.

Not in your Dept but it is hardly typical is it? Presumably run by moderates. I know of a have a National Executive Committee member elected on the Moderate slate who has not bothered to attend a single bloody NEC meeting. The reason your management are walking all over you is because your local reps are in the pockets of management. You need to build the union, kick out your reps and exert union power. Meanwhile at least you have your CS pension to fall back on when you hit 60!

It was once shit where I am but a small number of us got organised and took up the issues members wanted taking up. It's still not perfect but it is much better than it was. we are not as badly paid as you (we once were paid worse, but we struck). We have more annual leave too I believe? Again achieved by our strike.

You also forget that the Govt. wanted to take away our sick pay (for first few days each period of s/l) but backed off because of the national strike. The cabinet office protocol to avoid redundancies is far from perfect, but if your reps use it it does make a difference - at least for the moment.

Strikes achieve nothing say the Moderates/4 the members and so say your managers too. Not really true though isi it?

 

[Groucho]

At least unions in the past paid out strike pay to strikers. No point even trying to approach a union about this now.

No serious union can sustain strike pay. If you have a major strike it would bankrupt the union. Most unions never have paid strike pay, although most do have hardship funds.

 

[treelover]

Grouch, aren't you revealing more about KJ's work, etc than is wise?

 

[mutley]

Fucking hate that slogan......it just reminds me of SWP robotrots now days......

grow up

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Grouch, aren't you revealing more about KJ's work, etc than is wise?

Nothing much more than I've revealed myself.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Not in your Dept but it is hardly typical is it? You have a National Executive Committee member elected on the Moderate slate who has not bothered to attend a single bloody NEC meeting. The reason your management are walking all over you is because your local reps are in the pockets of management. JW who runs your branch is on their side not yours. You need to build the union, kick out your reps and exert union power. Meanwhile at least you have your CS pension to fall back on when you hit 60!

I know of the person of whom you speak. that person gets elected because the people in my directorate because of the nature of what they do are naturally conservative (with a small c) and distrust radicalism. I'm often getting those of the 'moderate' '4 the members' persuasion saying that 'Left Unity' are coercing and threatening people and driving people away from branches. That is not what my experience is my experience is that branch meetings are very very poorly attended and a lot of stuff from the moderates goes through on the nod so to speak. ASAIK we have no left representative in our branch whatsoever. I'm not sure they would be elected if they were such has been the highly successful campaign against them in my directorate.

It was once shit where I am but a small number of us got organised and took up the issues members wanted taking up. It's still not perfect but it is much better than it was. we are not as badly paid as you (we once were paid worse, but we struck). We have more annual leave too I believe? Again achieved by our strike.

I don't think that a change in union representation would bring any improvement on pay but it might deal with some of the execesses of the petty bosses the Band B - C ones. Maybe I should start taking more of a part in my local branch.

You also forget that the Govt. wanted to take away our sick pay (for first few days each period of s/l) but backed off because of the national strike. The cabinet office protocol to avoid redundancies is far from perfect, but if your reps use it it does make a difference - at least for the moment.



Strikes achieve nothing say the Moderates/4 the members and so say your managers too. Not really true though isi it?

Strikes achieved nothing in my dept as it was a case of majority scabbing. Also a day out on strike means another days work needs to be caught up on.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

On the original topic, I'm very serious about what I say to the original poster. If you're finding it too much for you, walk away and retreat into your personal interests. It's actually important to do so before you get too pessimistic (or even misanthropic and/or reactionary, which can happen very easily). If you don't think you're contributing anything, then don't try. It's perfectly all right and not to your discredit. It's much, much worse to end up so disillusioned that you end up trying to dissuade other people from doing things or even batting for the other side.

 

[poster342002]

Not in your Dept but it is hardly typical is it?

I suspect it's actually highly typical of many departments apart from the DWP.

 

[poster342002]

On the original topic, I'm very serious about what I say to the original poster. If you're finding it too much for you, walk away and retreat into your personal interests. It's actually important to do so before you get too pessimistic (or even misanthropic and/or reactionary, which can happen very easily). If you don't think you're contributing anything, then don't try. It's perfectly all right and not to your discredit. It's much, much worse to end up so disillusioned that you end up trying to dissuade other people from doing things or even batting for the other side.

The trouble is, it's not that simple is it? All the things that piss me off (high rent, crap "initiatives" at work, high food prices etc etc) aren't going to stop affecting me if I just ignore them and bury myself in personal interests, are they?

 

[poster342002]

And also, to Groucho, having a left-leaning union branch doesn't necessarily mean the membership is any more radicalised. For instance, the union branch where I work is actually pretty good and comprised of a number of fine reps of a radical persuasion who do their best to fight all the battles. Has this radicalised the genreral membership in any way, thugh? Has it fuck. Whenever we've had a strike, we've still had the insane phenomenon of just about everybody strolling into work as usual.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

And also, to Groucho, having a left-leaning union branch doesn't necessarily mean the membership is any more radicalised. For instance, the union branch where I work is actually pretty good and comprised of a number of fine reps of a radical persuasion who do their best to fight all the battles. Has this radicalised the genreral membership in any way, thugh? Has it fuck. Whenever we've had a strike, we've still had the insane phenomenon of just about everybody strolling into work as usual.

I get the feeling that this would be the position in our directorate as well.

But does there come a time when you think 'fuck it - all you bastards are looking after number one I think I will too' and then cross the line.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

And also, to Groucho, having a left-leaning union branch doesn't necessarily mean the membership is any more radicalised. For instance, the union branch where I work is actually pretty good and comprised of a number of fine reps of a radical persuasion who do their best to fight all the battles. Has this radicalised the genreral membership in any way, thugh? Has it fuck. Whenever we've had a strike, we've still had the insane phenomenon of just about everybody strolling into work as usual.

You might end up with a left leaning branch which no body attends.

 

[poster342002]

double post deleted

 

[poster342002]

You might end up with a left leaning branch which no body attends.

I think you nowadays get that whether it's left or rightwing. I used to work somewhere that had a rightwing union branch, and was convicned that if only we had better reps it would inspire and spur the wider membership into action. Sadly, I have since found that that simply doesn't necessarily follow on.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

There is something you can do about it, even if there is no representation: leave. Many many people lack faith in their ability to find employment. Truth is that if you have skills to do one job you have skills to do another. People act like the sky will fall on their heads if they ever left their often pointless wage-slave jobs. It aint so. They are driven by materialism and gullibility.

 

[poster342002]

There is something you can do about it, even if there is no representation: leave. Many many people lack faith in their ability to find employment. Truth is that if you have skills to do one job you have skills to do another. People act like the sky will fall on their heads if they ever left their often pointless wage-slave jobs. It aint so. They are driven by materialism and gullibility.

Yeah - you can leave one reactionary workplace and join another, equally reactionary, one.

Ironically, your post highlights exactly the sort of attituded rife in workplace Britain. A sort of "if you don't like it, you know where the door is" mentality that asnwers none of the problems.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Yeah - you can leave one reactionary workplace and join another, equally reactionary, one.

Ironically, your post highlights exactly the sort of attituded rife in workplace Britain. A sort of "if you don't like it, you know where the door is" mentality that asnwers none of the problems.

I agree with you tht the 'don't like it fuck off' attitude is wrong but it seems all avenues for workers fighting back are being closed off.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The trouble is, it's not that simple is it? All the things that piss me off (high rent, crap "initiatives" at work, high food prices etc etc) aren't going to stop affecting me if I just ignore them and bury myself in personal interests, are they?

No, it's not that simple but it's possible to some degree. I've essentially done the same myself for a while now - basically sswearing off direct involvement in things, while naturally taking an interest in discussing them now and then. You know, like Isaac Deutscher in his ivory tower...

....and besides, what options have you given yourself? I mean if what you're saying is "there's no point" then for Gawd's sake take that seriously. Don't just sit around bending other people's ears about it, you'll get on their nerves.

 

[poster342002]

it seems all avenues for workers fighting back are being closed off.

I'd go so far as to say that, efectively, slavery is slowly being reintroduced by the back door. And nobody is even saying this is wrong. Wouldn't want to be "resistant to change", "inflexible", "a troublemaker" or "a disruptive influence" now, would we?

 

[poster342002]

No, it's not that simple but it's possible to some degree. I've essentially done the same myself for a while now - basically sswearing off direct involvement in things, .

What I man is, "things" have a nasty habit in taking an interest in you. Just "ignoring" them is - literally - impossible. It's a bit like asking somebody to "just ignore" someone who was mugging them.

It would be lovely if I could sit in an ivory tower, totally unaffected by the world. The world, however, insists on foisting it's fucked-up practises on me, however...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

What I man is, "things" have a nasty habit in taking an interest in you. Just "ignoring" them is - literally - impossible.

Well, they do of course. Like they did Abbie Hoffmann. But nevertheless, just because the absolute is impossible doesn't mean something substantial can't be done.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I'd go so far as to say that, efectively, slavery is slowly being reintroduced by the back door. And nobody is even saying this is wrong. Wouldn't want to be "resistant to change", "inflexible", "a troublemaker" or "a disruptive influence" now, would we?

Spot on! The words that you put in quotes are the ones that managment whisper about workers who speak out. Not just in my job but in others as well.