Theos invents another huge cultural problem which "only religion" can solve

[danny la rouge]

I like being mortal. The idea of persisting forever seems to me to be intolerable. And impossible.

Indeed.

 

[phildwyer]

Let's assume for the lulz that it is The Distinguishing Human Characteristic, that does not necessarily mean it is what gave H. sapiens evolutionary advantage.

But do we have an evolutionary advantage? Surely not. Are the atomic bomb and the greenhouse effect the work of a creature with an evolutionary advantage?

 

[maomao]

YWe're certainly not much good at running or fighting.

Human's are actually brilliant hunters and in hot climates make great endurance runners giving a huge advantage over fur covered animals who have to rest in the hot part of the day.

 

[danny la rouge]

But do we have an evolutionary advantage? Surely not. Are the atomic bomb and the greenhouse effect the work of a creature with an evolutionary advantage?

I think you have seriously misunderstood evolution somewhere.

 

[phildwyer]

It is a matter of degree only.

But quantitative difference become qualitative after a point. A point comfortably contained within the difference between the human mind and the elephantine.

 

[danny la rouge]

Human's are actually brilliant hunters and in hot climates make great endurance runners giving a huge advantage over fur covered animals who have to rest in the hot part of the day.

Exactly. And the level of co-operation we are capable of on a hunt gives us huge advantages. Clearly, or we wouldn't be here.

 

[danny la rouge]

But quantitative difference become qualitative after a point. A point comfortably contained within the difference between the human mind and the elephantine.

The point is that elephants don't want to die, and know it. They don't write poems about it, but we can be fairly sure that they have strong feelings on the matter.

 

[phildwyer]

The point is that elephants don't want to die, and know it. They don't write poems about it, but we can be fairly sure that they have strong feelings on the matter.

My point is that the difference between having strong feelings about it and writing poems about it is qualitative rather than quantitative.

 

[danny la rouge]

Is it.

 

[kyser_soze]

How does anyone know that in amongst all their trunking (what noise do elephants make? Trumpeting?) there isn't communication of fears for the future, or foreknowledge of death? How do we know that there isn't an equivalent of poetry in a combination of trumpeting and body language/touch by trunk?

 

[maomao]

Exactly. And the level of co-operation we are capable of on a hunt gives us huge advantages. Clearly, or we wouldn't be here.

Most animals who make noises just have vowels, sometimes sybilants but no stops or anything that really resembles a consonant. Consonants are great because they allow vowels to be framed into phonological chunks which can then be used as referents to semantic concepts allowing a much larger catalogue of meanings than the average animal. Human consonants developed from the clicks and whistles which early man used for communication while hunting, high frequency sounds carrying for far shorter distances. Language, which gave us the key to 'self-consciousness' allowed us to separate ourselves from the other animals, comes from a set of very basic abilities that each offered it's own advantage.

 

[maomao]

How does anyone know that in amongst all their trunking (what noise do elephants make? Trumpeting?) there isn't communication of fears for the future, or foreknowledge of death? How do we know that there isn't an equivalent of poetry in a combination of trumpeting and body language/touch by trunk?

Range of sounds involved doesn't allow for that much meaning.

 

[kyser_soze]

Smell/touch/body langauge...

 

[Santino]

Isn't there an elephant who writes mystery novels?

 

[danny la rouge]

Isn't there an elephant who writes mystery novels?

There are elephant painters, and at least one singer, though.

 

[maomao]

Smell/touch/body langauge...

Yes, and how do you know that the patterns of clouds aren't messages from god? If elephants were able to exchange such abstract ideas we would have some evidence of them exchanging more basic ones.

 

[Fruitloop]

When Santino the chimpanzee started pelting zoo visitors with stones, his keepers were mystified.

Not that they were surprised by his displays of aggression — the 31-year-old chimp is, after all, a dominant male. But there was no obvious source of stones in his enclosure; so where was he finding all the missiles?

All became clear when they carried out a search and found his stockpiles of rocks. Santino had been fishing stones from the moat surrounding his enclosure - and, even more impressively, he had been shaping odd pieces of concrete into aerodynamic disc-shaped missiles. Then he had been stashing them away for future use.

Fortunately for visitors to Furuvik Zoo, in Sweden, Santino wasn't very good at throwing, preferring the underarm method, so no one was badly hurt.

But his behaviour has led scientists to conclude that premeditation is not a uniquely human trait.

It seems chimpanzees, too, are capable of forward planning, and have a sophisticated understanding of past and future. The chimp is also furtive about his behaviour, almost as if he knows he is being sneaky.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article5877764.ece

 

[kyser_soze]

Yes, and how do you know that the patterns of clouds aren't messages from god? If elephants were able to exchange such abstract ideas we would have some evidence of them exchanging more basic ones.

Why?

I'm only doing this for the lulz, BTW, I don't really believe there are elephant emos out there, forever annoying the herd matriarchs with their whining about death, the lack of water/too much water etc, but I'm always curious to know how one ascertains the complexity and sophistication of communication in another species, other than measuring it against human behaviour.

 

[Santino]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article5877764.ece

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, and how do you know that the patterns of clouds aren't messages from god? If elephants were able to exchange such abstract ideas we would have some evidence of them exchanging more basic ones.

There is evidence that elephants have empathy and concern for injured and deceased comrades. In fact, there's even evidence crows do.

 

[Santino]

I'm only doing this for the lulz, BTW, I don't really believe there are elephant emos out there, forever annoying the herd matriarchs with their whining about death, the lack of water/too much water etc, but I'm always curious to know how one ascertains the complexity and sophistication of communication in another species, other than measuring it against human behaviour.

Counter-trolling, innit?

 

[maomao]

There is evidence that elephants have empathy and concern for injured and deceased comrades. In fact, there's even evidence crows do.

I know, that's quite a different thing from being able to articulate that grief.

To answer Kyser's question, by looking at the range of sounds produced, other possible methods of communication and evidence of information being transmitted from one animal to the next.

 

[danny la rouge]

I know, that's quite a different thing from being able to articulate that grief.

Well, indeed. Which was very much implicit in my comment about poetry.

 

[Gromit]

I don't really believe there are elephant emos out there.

Nope but there are plenty of Elephant Goths.

I've seen them in record shops snapping up all the Morrisy records with their unfair long trunk advantage.

Its the trunk that enables them to be Goth. They'd never be able to apply the eye line without it. Had they shorter trunks I'm certain that they'd all be rockers.

 

[danny la rouge]

Nope but there are plenty of Elephant Goths.

I'm surprised. I'd have thought they'd be more into MOR singer-songwriters.

 

[cesare]

Do I gather that most people on the thread are relatively optimistic about the survival of the human race?

 

[Fruitloop]

Nope, we seem to be pretty much screwed.

 

[kyser_soze]

I am - I reckon we'll scrape our way through the coming tribulations - even if a couple of nukes get let off (which they will).

 

[cesare]

Nope, we seem to be pretty much screwed.

I think so too.

 

[cesare]

I am - I reckon we'll scrape our way through the coming tribulations - even if a couple of nukes get let off (which they will).

If the planet is still habitable. I suppose it might be, just.