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The Workfare State...

It's not neccesarily the fault of the organisations concerned, more a fault of the tendering process and the way charities get their funding.
 
_angel_ said:
Well, quite.

Apols for the cut and paste, someone posted this on a local autism site, I don't have a link.


TV attack on MP over expenses

A health minister defended the Government's record on support for carers after his expenses were attacked by a Spalding mother of autistic sons.

Phil Hope, who said last month he would hand back £41,709 in taxpayer-funded expenses, said he "understood" public anger over the scandal.

An email from Karen Ferguson was read out by GMTV presenter Andrew Castle.Letter sent to Phil Hope 10 June 2009





I feel dead lucky compared to that lady.
On top of that if she's in receipt of Income Support she will have the job centre making her go in and talk about looking for "work".



As it is, carers narrowly avoided being turfed onto Job seekers allowance (despite being in receipt of the only benefit that you have to actually already do full time work for)


You missed out"some elderly and disabled people will simply die" which undoubtedly already happens because of lack of care and is not going to get better.
Click to expand...

They just don't think anything through and base all their schemes on The Sun editorial. They couldn't give a fuck about ANYONE poor or struggling. Look at how 2 faced some of the main fans of these harsh measures were when it came to THEM living off the taxpayer
 
tbaldwin said:
Paying people not to work......How much sense does that make?
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None at all. It's not often that I find myself agreeing with you over these issues but this is such a no-brainer. DWP research shows that its ineffective, expensive and unsustainable, Freud and Gregg were ambivalent at best, Purnell didn't seem particularly convinced about it, so why are the idjuts still pushing it forward? Fucking stupid deflection like today's NoTW story about cutting benefits for immigrants, shitty stereotyping media-ops that the fools think will counter the recent success of Griffin and his mob.
 
Workfare is about paying people poverty level wages aka welfare benefits and forcing them to work 40 hour weeks for the privilege - therefore it isn't a good idea.

is that fucking simple enough for you? :rolleyes:

lay off the fucking grass man and starting thinking, you might surprise yourself like.....
 
ViolentPanda said:
Yeah, but you're forgetting some essential facts:
1) Nigel is an idiot.
2) His bent toward knee-jerk right-wing tropes is a decent guide to what his "gut" politics really are, as opposed the pseudo-political babble he half-comprehendingly spouts.
3) Nigel is an idiot.
Click to expand...

No, I am a socialist but that doesn't mean that I am a liberal, the two things are not compatible.

It shows the level of you're arguments when all you can do is digress to insults.

No wonder the BNP are doing so well with much of the left arguing t keep people on benefits for the rest of their life and the weirder fringe elements have this 'Why Work' sort of outlook.
 
_angel_ said:
Its all part of a process, better that people are doing some sort of constructive work, or better training with work. From what I have seen of agencies like PeopleServe individuals working within it are helping people with SEN and teaching them basic IT skills against the odds and with littel resources.

This country has now a legacy , not only that everyone owes them a living, but coming up to five+ generations of a social underclass existing in many proud communities, that and a push to get people signed off on the sick to fiddle dole figures, developing a psycho sematic desire to be in a permenant state of illness rather than getting off their backsides and doing something to support themselves and families. Either that or financing themselves in black grey economy predominantely poor on poor crime derrogatory to working class communities or casual labour undermining pay and conditions of the working class as a whole.


If people are genuinly unable to work or contribute, such as sufferers of MS etc. and an independent body that is unbiased subscribes them as such then obviously they should get all the help they can get.

However there have been quite a few schemes and projects, as I have mentioned before such as ploughhsare communities, which have given people who are mentally handicapped a working environment, even projects on the libertarian left such as White Lion Free School, was educating young people with what would be considered behavioural problems, who would now probably be diagnosed as ADHD and put on highly addictive and dangerous medication for the rest of their lives.

A situation that is never ending for a self perpetuating self sustaining care industry. That more and more sees its 'clients' conditions as permenant.
Click to expand...

You do seem to see all people with "disabilities" as one homogenous entity with a one-size fits all answer. There isn't a one-size fits all answer (which is more or less what our govt thinks, as well).

You talk about the 'care industry' yet if carers of disabled people were being forced back to "work" (they already are working) then surely there will be more people in "the care industry".

If there was going to be the money, of course, for it.[/QUOTE]
 
Nigel said:
No, I am a socialist but that doesn't mean that I am a liberal, the two things are not compatible.

It shows the level of you're arguments when all you can do is digress to insults.

No wonder the BNP are doing so well with much of the left arguing t keep people on benefits for the rest of their life and the weirder fringe elements have this 'Why Work' sort of outlook.
Click to expand...
i've never seen anyone argue anywhere to keep people on benefits.

i have seen people argue in favour of giving people the means to not die in the gutter. Any society that can't manage that because of it's scarcity economics and fearmongering is a shitty place.
 
SpookyFrank said:
What a shame.
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Basically said if people are genuinly unable to do anything and this is accepted by independent source, such as MS, etc. then they have every right to benefits., and the best care available .
Pointed out alternatives such as White Lion Free School(many of whom who worked there Lib. Left), Ploughshares community mentally handicapped.
 
Nigel said:
No, I am a socialist but that doesn't mean that I am a liberal, the two things are not compatible.
Click to expand...
See what I mean about using words you don't understand?
You may well claim to be a socialist, but your expressed politics don't match up, do they?
It shows the level of you're arguments when all you can do is digress to insults.
Click to expand...
And another word you obviously don't understand: It's not a digression if it's relevant to the topic. You being an idiot who falls back on rightist arguments despite your supposed socialism is entirely relevant.
No wonder the BNP are doing so well with much of the left arguing t keep people on benefits for the rest of their life and the weirder fringe elements have this 'Why Work' sort of outlook.
Click to expand...
Only an idiot like you would try to link the BNP's electoral victories with non-existent arguments about "keeping people on benefits".
I'll just say it again in the vain hope it sinks in: You're an idiot.
 
ViolentPanda said:
See what I mean about using words you don't understand?
You may well claim to be a socialist, but your expressed politics don't match up, do they?

And another word you obviously don't understand: It's not a digression if it's relevant to the topic. You being an idiot who falls back on rightist arguments despite your supposed socialism is entirely relevant.

Only an idiot like you would try to link the BNP's electoral victories with non-existent arguments about "keeping people on benefits".
I'll just say it again in the vain hope it sinks in: You're an idiot.
Click to expand...

Thanx for clearing that up for me:eek::rolleyes:

So again without any argument to put forward you regress to insults.
 
You don't think that much of the middle class lefts aversion of moral and social fabric of communities and society has anything to do with BNP gaining control in working class communities.
 
Awesome Wells said:
i've never seen anyone argue anywhere to keep people on benefits.

i have seen people argue in favour of giving people the means to not die in the gutter. Any society that can't manage that because of it's scarcity economics and fearmongering is a shitty place.
Click to expand...

Nigel has a bee in his bonnet because of his perception that there is a hard-core of people claiming benefit who do so from a position of "work avoidance".
Now, I'll actually agree that there is such a hard-core, but guess what? No statistical analysis carried out by the DWP or its' predecessor organisations has ever found that "hardcore" sizeable enough to worry about, especially as we're mostly talking (despite Nigel having a hard-on for people supposedly fraudulently claiming Incapacity Benefit) about people who are claiming JSA.
 
Nigel said:
Basically said if people are genuinly unable to do anything and this is accepted by independent source, such as MS, etc. then they have every right to benefits., and the best care available .
Click to expand...
And there you go again, making assumptions.
Many people with MS are able to carry on working for years. It's not about whether you have a condition or conditions that "qualifies" you to be able to receive "disability benefits", it's about the severity of the conditions you have.
Pointed out alternatives such as White Lion Free School(many of whom who worked there Lib. Left), Ploughshares community mentally handicapped.
Click to expand...
Bully for you.
 
Nigel said:
Thanx for clearing that up for me:eek::rolleyes:
Click to expand...
You're the one making yourself look stupid, Nigel, not me.
So again without any argument to put forward you regress to insults.
Click to expand...
That's odd. I thought I'd argued that a person would have to be an idiot to try and link BNP political gains with spurious bollocks about benefits claimants.
 
You don't think arguments put about by the scarcity of resources and the way they are distributed and implemented, and degenerate affects of liberalism on the 'British' people are arguments that the Far Right would bring up?
 
ViolentPanda said:
And there you go again, making assumptions.
Many people with MS are able to carry on working for years. It's not about whether you have a condition or conditions that "qualifies" you to be able to receive "disability benefits", it's about the severity of the conditions you have.

Bully for you.
Click to expand...
I doubt many people would be able to work in severe stages of MS.
An independent assesor would be able to make a decision on this.
 
Nigel said:
You don't think that much of the middle class lefts aversion of moral and social fabric of communities and society has anything to do with BNP gaining control in working class communities.
Click to expand...

"Aversion of"? What's that supposed to mean? Do you mean "abandonment of", "avoidance of" or perhaps "aversion to"?

In any case, the "middle class left" has little directly to do with the BNPs' political gains (which haven't, by the way, resulted in them "gaining control of working class communities". The policies of successive governments to move away from the responsibilities it assumed after WW2 have done that. They're what made housing a hotly-contested resource whose distribution causes social tensions; they're what have made employment a battle-ground in some areas; they're what tell people they need x. y and z consumer goods, then don't give them the tools (a job, a skill) to possess those goods.
 
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