The Workfare State...

[ViolentPanda]

its funny welfare issues on here , supposedly a progressive site don't raise much excitement, (as opposed to say the far right) yet on guardian Cif there are over six pages of comment now, inc my own which has been recommended by the Author

CiF has a much wider "audience"/readership though.

 

[Nigel]

How would you curtail fraud while protecting the welfare of the genuinely needy?[/QUOTE]

For a start , re-building Britains manufacturing industry and bringing it under public ownership, this would create an increase in service industries, spending and economic growth.

 

[tbaldwin]

Paying people not to work......How much sense does that make?

 

[_angel_]

How would you curtail fraud while protecting the welfare of the genuinely needy?

For a start , re-building Britains manufacturing industry and bringing it under public ownership, this would create an increase in service industries, spending and economic growth.[/QUOTE]

Aye, but that's not what this shower have got in mind, at all, is it?

 

[Nigel]

For a start , re-building Britains manufacturing industry and bringing it under public ownership, this would create an increase in service industries, spending and economic growth.

Aye, but that's not what this shower have got in mind, at all, is it?[/QUOTE]

I never said it was, as a socialist calling for Full Employment is a transitional demand, something like Housing For All etc. is impossible to deliver under capitalism. Especially with the Neo liberal policies based around privatisation being put forward at the moment.

 

[_angel_]

Aye, but that's not what this shower have got in mind, at all, is it?

I never said it was, as a socialist calling for Full Employment is a transitional demand, something like Housing For All etc. is impossible to deliver under capitalism. Especially with the Neo liberal policies based around privatisation being put forward at the moment.[/QUOTE]

But that's the point..... you cheer on people being kicked off social security, yet you know very well there is nothing like full employment/ secure employment being offered - even for the ones able to get it. Never mind the vulnerable ones who won't be able to.

 

[Nigel]

I never said it was, as a socialist calling for Full Employment is a transitional demand, something like Housing For All etc. is impossible to deliver under capitalism. Especially with the Neo liberal policies based around privatisation being put forward at the moment.

But that's the point..... you cheer on people being kicked off social security, yet you know very well there is nothing like full employment/ secure employment being offered - even for the ones able to get it. Never mind the vulnerable ones who won't be able to.[/QUOTE]


Its all part of a process, better that people are doing some sort of constructive work, or better training with work. From what I have seen of agencies like PeopleServe individuals working within it are helping people with SEN and teaching them basic IT skills against the odds and with littel resources.

This country has now a legacy , not only that everyone owes them a living, but coming up to five+ generations of a social underclass existing in many proud communities, that and a push to get people signed off on the sick to fiddle dole figures, developing a psycho sematic desire to be in a permenant state of illness rather than getting off their backsides and doing something to support themselves and families. Either that or financing themselves in black grey economy predominantely poor on poor crime derrogatory to working class communities or casual labour undermining pay and conditions of the working class as a whole.

A situation that is never ending for a self perpetuating self sustaining care industry. That more and more sees its 'clients' conditions as permenant.

 

[Azrael]

For a start , re-building Britains manufacturing industry and bringing it under public ownership, this would create an increase in service industries, spending and economic growth.

I'm all for rebuilding Britains manufacturing base, as a matter of extreme urgency. But not in public hands: it rotted in part because it ended up as a uncompetitive closed-shop subsidised up to its eyeballs. At the very least, if it must be a public utility, it should be kept at arms length from the state.

That might solve some unemployment, but it won't remove the underclass, if that's what you want to call it. Intangibles like community pride and an honesty ethic are needed. Perhaps they would return if the camaraderie of industry also returned.

These measures won't fix anything because career dole cheats aren't scared of losing their benefits: many do jobs on the side, or commit petty crime, or both. Yet the metro elite treat the market as a panacea. The people hurt will be those genuinely in need.

 

[_angel_]

But that's the point..... you cheer on people being kicked off social security, yet you know very well there is nothing like full employment/ secure employment being offered - even for the ones able to get it. Never mind the vulnerable ones who won't be able to.

Its all part of a process, better that people are doing some sort of constructive work, or better training with work. From what I have seen of agencies like PeopleServe individuals working within it are helping people with SEN and teaching them basic IT skills against the odds and with littel resources.

This country has now a legacy , not only that everyone owes them a living, but coming up to five+ generations of a social underclass existing in many proud communities, that and a push to get people signed off on the sick to fiddle dole figures, developing a psycho sematic desire to be in a permenant state of illness rather than getting off their backsides and doing something to support themselves and families. Either that or financing themselves in black grey economy predominantely poor on poor crime derrogatory to working class communities or casual labour undermining pay and conditions of the working class as a whole.

A situation that is never ending for a self perpetuating self sustaining care industry. That more and more sees its 'clients' conditions as permenant.[/QUOTE]

You do seem to see all people with "disabilities" as one homogenous entity with a one-size fits all answer. There isn't a one-size fits all answer (which is more or less what our govt thinks, as well).

You talk about the 'care industry' yet if carers of disabled people were being forced back to "work" (they already are working) then surely there will be more people in "the care industry".

If there was going to be the money, of course, for it.

 

[trevhagl]

Paying people not to work......How much sense does that make?

ever heard of National Insurance contributions? What do you think THEY'RE for?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Boot camps would probably be more affective, along with treatment. Try and instill some sort of self discipline and self respect and breaking behaviour patterns as well as breaking the cycle of addiction.

well of course we all know that addiction isn't a 'dis-ease' and it's all the fault of peopel who become weak and feeble.

This is the frankly Nietzsche-esque message the right wing have propagated as the populist opinion.

Will to power. England prevails.

 

[tbaldwin]

ever heard of National Insurance contributions? What do you think THEY'RE for?

I am not against people who cant or dont work getting money trev. But i do think the benefit system is close to insane.
Why should unemployed people lose all their benefits if they get some part time work?
Personally i think that unemployment benefit should be phased out and support the idea of a citizens wage that would not penalise anyone for working.

 

[Awesome Wells]

But that's the point..... you cheer on people being kicked off social security, yet you know very well there is nothing like full employment/ secure employment being offered - even for the ones able to get it. Never mind the vulnerable ones who won't be able to.

Its all part of a process, better that people are doing some sort of constructive work, or better training with work. From what I have seen of agencies like PeopleServe individuals working within it are helping people with SEN and teaching them basic IT skills against the odds and with littel resources.

This country has now a legacy , not only that everyone owes them a living, but coming up to five+ generations of a social underclass existing in many proud communities, that and a push to get people signed off on the sick to fiddle dole figures, developing a psycho sematic desire to be in a permenant state of illness rather than getting off their backsides and doing something to support themselves and families. Either that or financing themselves in black grey economy predominantely poor on poor crime derrogatory to working class communities or casual labour undermining pay and conditions of the working class as a whole.

A situation that is never ending for a self perpetuating self sustaining care industry. That more and more sees its 'clients' conditions as permenant.[/QUOTE]

If the state wants people to work, then it does owe them a living. What kind of world are we living in when we demand people work to support themselves (or rather the state, that is the economy), but we then don't even help them do this! It's about time we took a good long look at how we do things in this society.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Paying people not to work......How much sense does that make?

Depends on the context.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Aye, but that's not what this shower have got in mind, at all, is it?

No-one in the political elite would welcome a return to a manufacturing industry (even if we could compete), because manufacturing usually meant strong unions and strong communities, and the current turds can't bear the thought of organised labour having any kind of resurgence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But that's the point..... you cheer on people being kicked off social security, yet you know very well there is nothing like full employment/ secure employment being offered - even for the ones able to get it. Never mind the vulnerable ones who won't be able to.

Yeah, but you're forgetting some essential facts:
1) Nigel is an idiot.
2) His bent toward knee-jerk right-wing tropes is a decent guide to what his "gut" politics really are, as opposed the pseudo-political babble he half-comprehendingly spouts.
3) Nigel is an idiot.

 

[smokedout]

its funny welfare issues on here , supposedly a progressive site don't raise much excitement, (as opposed to say the far right) yet on guardian Cif there are over six pages of comment now, inc my own which has been recommended by the Author

possibly because by and large we're mostly in agreement (at least in p&p) and its boring dealing with trolls like nigel and making balders look daft everytime it comes up

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its all part of a process, better that people are doing some sort of constructive work, or better training with work. From what I have seen of agencies like PeopleServe individuals working within it are helping people with SEN and teaching them basic IT skills against the odds and with littel resources.

There was already a nationwide agency for training people with SEN and physical incapacities; it was called Remploy. It got gutted so that training contracts could be farmed out.

This country has now a legacy , not only that everyone owes them a living, but coming up to five+ generations of a social underclass existing in many proud communities, that and a push to get people signed off on the sick to fiddle dole figures, developing a psycho sematic desire to be in a permenant state of illness rather than getting off their backsides and doing something to support themselves and families. Either that or financing themselves in black grey economy predominantely poor on poor crime derrogatory to working class communities or casual labour undermining pay and conditions of the working class as a whole.

What a fine collection of tropes you've assembled, larded with your usual usage of words with meanings that you obviously don't fully comprehend.
The "push to get people signed off on the sick to fiddle dole figures" hasn't actually happened for over 10 years now. That's why the recipient count for Incapacity Benefit has dropped by half a million in the interim.
People with a the sort of desire you mention are few and far between, and as far as claiming sickness benefits are concerned, they tend to get weeded out early in the claim, and under the ESA rules can be submitted to a course of CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) to adjust their thinking, and then required under sanction to find employment.

You can't open your mouth without spouting uninformed shite, can you?

A situation that is never ending for a self perpetuating self sustaining care industry. That more and more sees its 'clients' conditions as permenant.

There is no "care industry", as anyone who lives with incapacities/disabilities could tell you. Resources are few and far between and are concentrated on two main sectors: The elderly and children. People with incapacities get very little in comparison because our needs aren't prioritised by either local or national government.

 

[Urbanblues]

So force carers of disabled people back into ‘mainstream’ employment. Many would enjoy the opportunity to earn real money. But, in doing so we must accept that that care will have to be provided by someone.

If carers, family and friends, of disabled and elderly people are compelled to abandon those they care for, several scenarios will be played out.

1. Some disabled people and elderly will ‘manage’ after a fashion. Their quality of life will probably deteriorate; but, they’ll muddle through.
2. Some disabled people and elderly will become the responsibility of social services, thus their care costs will soar.
3. Some disabled people and elderly will be turned down for care packages. The health of many of these will deteriorate to the point that they need hospitalisation. Those that are brought back to health will probably leave hospital needing greater care than before and become assessed as having critical care needs, a category which local authorities has a statutory duty to adhere to.

If governments had sense they’d up the Carers’ Allowance, give them proper pension rights as well as decent respite breaks; and, thank their lucky stars they’re getting a top level of care for peanuts.

 

[_angel_]

There is no "care industry", as anyone who lives with incapacities/disabilities could tell you. Resources are few and far between and are concentrated on two main sectors: The elderly and children. People with incapacities get very little in comparison because our needs aren't prioritised by either local or national government.

Well, quite.

Apols for the cut and paste, someone posted this on a local autism site, I don't have a link.


TV attack on MP over expenses

A health minister defended the Government's record on support for carers after his expenses were attacked by a Spalding mother of autistic sons.

Phil Hope, who said last month he would hand back £41,709 in taxpayer-funded expenses, said he "understood" public anger over the scandal.

An email from Karen Ferguson was read out by GMTV presenter Andrew Castle.Letter sent to Phil Hope 10 June 2009

Wed 10 Jun 2009 13:43

Mr Hope

My name is Karen Ferguson from Spalding in Lincolnshire. Earlier this year I wrote to our MP John Hayes with several questions about the set up and reasoning behind the question of Carers Allowance. I was very disappointed by your response which showed no care and little understanding of the issues.
I was a member of the chatroom yesterday on the PRTC Carers site and it was again very disappointing. We waited ages for responses and when they came they didnt feel as though they were in direct response to the question but rather a prewritten government report.
This morning you were interviewed on GMTV by Andrew Castle and I am pleased that he put my question to you regarding your expenses overclaim and its relation to the paltry amount we receive in Carers Allowance.Whilst I realise that the expenses overclaims are part of a culture in Parliament which has wrongly been allowed to continue without check it is really infuriating to know that the man who is paid to look after our interests as carers has so little moral or even basic human concern for the poor level of financial support and regard in which we are held.
Even with your MPs standard issue blinkers and ear plugs [humour not intended] you must be aware of the growing unrest in the country on this issue and you owe it to the British public to listen properly and take action to remedy the situation. After all, what have you got to lose? Either you slide out of your constituency at the next election with your tail between your legs and become no more than another failed minister on the statistics of government OR you can MAKE A DIFFERENCE! I assume that is what you went into politics to do but have somehow lost your way maybe? Am I wrong?
I wrote the following on the PRTC site this morning. It is fairly raw and from the heart and some of the other carer members thought I should send it to you.
"I dont have a choice. My sons are my sons, Autistic or not, and my hubby is my hubby, Paraplegia or not. However it has meant me giving up my own job/career and having freedom to have an independent life within the family. It has stopped me being able to sleep through the night and I dont get any days off or proper holidays.
It has isolated us all because family have excluded us or kept us at arms length since the boys were found to be Autistic, other parents didnt want their children mixing with Autistic kids [ they moved to other end of playground, barred them from playing with our boys in our neighbourhood and encouraged their kids to bully them at school] and either didnt talk to us or talked to us in an odd way and we have found people stopped inviting us to socialise because the disability gets in the way for them.
Then the schools stopped wanting to know or help our boys so the full-time care was supplemented with full-time education at home. The professionals all acknowledge that this has been best for our boys but they have left us to it and refused to offer any support "for fear of setting an unsustainable precedence"!!
Social Services have put up every obstruction in the book rather than offer any respite or support for the boys - delays, staff changes, lost records, mysteriously disappearing letters, extended staff sick leave, denying the boys are Autistic in direct denial of professional diagnoses, then seeking to deny that Autism is a disability, threatening me with being accused of Munchaussens syndrome if I fight , then saying that in any case they "dont do Autism" and eventually that if the boys are to have any support to socialise I will have to manage it myself and create the opportunities on my own. As for respite, even after hubby attempted suicide and became Paraplegic I was told it was my duty as a wife and mother to care full time without a break - no more no less. The mental strain has been /is enormous and this resulted in hubby attempting suicide and becoming Paraplegic as a result. I struggle with my own mind but have to battle through as best I can - which is frustrating because I know I am not performing and achieving to my optimum because of this.
I am sure disabled people have a negative connotation for society because of the cost to society but I calculated that by caring for and educating our sons we were saving the country about £60000 a year in their school years because they required educational statements, special support in school and transport to and from school. We opted not to bother with the stressful and non-productive regular visits to see the Paediatrician as that was a waste of NHS resources.
Is any of this my fault? Why do I feel I am being treated prejudicially as if it is and I should deal with the consequences? If I could afford it I would like to be able to tell them to stuff their £53.10 a week where the sun don't shine as it is a paltry insult to offer me that in recognition of what???
Yours in good faith
Karen Ferguson

I feel dead lucky compared to that lady.
On top of that if she's in receipt of Income Support she will have the job centre making her go in and talk about looking for "work".

So force carers of disabled people back into ‘mainstream’ employment. Many would enjoy the opportunity to earn real money. But, in doing so we must accept that that care will have to be provided by someone.

If carers, family and friends, of disabled and elderly people are compelled to abandon those they care for, several scenarios will be played out.

1. Some disabled people and elderly will ‘manage’ after a fashion. Their quality of life will probably deteriorate; but, they’ll muddle through.
2. Some disabled people and elderly will become the responsibility of social services, thus their care costs will soar.
3. Some disabled people and elderly will be turned down for care packages. The health of many of these will deteriorate to the point that they need hospitalisation. Those that are brought back to health will probably leave hospital needing greater care than before and become assessed as having critical care needs, a category which local authorities has a statutory duty to adhere to.

If governments had sense they’d up the Carers’ Allowance, give them proper pension rights as well as decent respite breaks; and, thank their lucky stars they’re getting a top level of care for peanuts.

As it is, carers narrowly avoided being turfed onto Job seekers allowance (despite being in receipt of the only benefit that you have to actually already do full time work for)


You missed out"some elderly and disabled people will simply die" which undoubtedly already happens because of lack of care and is not going to get better.

 

[Urbanblues]

Well, quite.

Apols for the cut and paste, someone posted this on a local autism site, I don't have a link.


TV attack on MP over expenses

A health minister defended the Government's record on support for carers after his expenses were attacked by a Spalding mother of autistic sons.

Phil Hope, who said last month he would hand back £41,709 in taxpayer-funded expenses, said he "understood" public anger over the scandal.

An email from Karen Ferguson was read out by GMTV presenter Andrew Castle.Letter sent to Phil Hope 10 June 2009





I feel dead lucky compared to that lady.
On top of that if she's in receipt of Income Support she will have the job centre making her go in and talk about looking for "work".



As it is, carers narrowly avoided being turfed onto Job seekers allowance (despite being in receipt of the only benefit that you have to actually already do full time work for)


You missed out"some elderly and disabled people will simply die" which undoubtedly already happens because of lack of care and is not going to get better.

Yes, sorry I did.

 

[Awesome Wells]

It's an absolute disgrace how carers are treated, an absolute and utter disgrace. Any MP or service that tries to make light of such activity or who thinks such work, for that's what it is, is easy or freeloading should thank whatever gods they pray to these people are there saving them money. Money for them to fritter away on pointless and unwelcome expenses. People in this society have become callous and things should change, though with that vacuous opportunist from Eton at the helm I doubt they will.

 

[Blagsta]

What are drug/addiction workers and thier unions, associations, etc doing about this, Blagsta works with addicts doesn' he?

Fuck all unfortunately. Everyone at my project thinks it's shocking, no one thinks we can oppose it. Union membership is low in the organisation I work for (although I'm encouraging colleagues to join as management are trying to take away our cost of living award).

Upper management seem to see it as a way to win more contracts, with them tendering for some of the employability contracts. I had an interview for one back in Feb. I made my opposition to all this known at the interview when I realised it was purely an employability job (and not a drug treatment aftercare job as advertised ) I didn't get offered the job.

 

[treelover]

wow, amazing principles there Blagsta, not many would have done that,


Awards the 'Order Of the P/P with Leaf' to Blagsta .......

 

[Blagsta]

I'd decided I didn't want it before I raised my concerns!

 

[shagnasty]

When Theresa May and Grayling get in we'll be begging for the days of Purnell.

The short sightedness of these proposals beggars belief and utterly lays bare the truth of the capitalist system and its greed; it's only profit.

What use is forcing people with addictions to undergo treatment for benefits, for example, they will be back out on the streets in a day, costing the state just the same at least. This just wastes a treatment place for someone ready to get off drugs who wants help, while feeding the populist belief in hating people with addictions.

You make a very good point in denying some one a place who is ready and willing to get treatment seem stupid

 

[Awesome Wells]

You make a very good point in denying some one a place who is ready and willing to get treatment seem stupid

Of course in the eyes of the state, those who aren't 'ready and willing' (in their eyes) will of course be pilloried and that used as justification to remove their benefit. After all they can't be bothered to help themselves...a shocking attitude that betrays a total lack of knowledge regarding addiction and disease. It is a waste of resources, given there will only ever be limited resources (if we continue with our current drug/alchohol social policies), to use coercion. I also worry about the attitudes this approach will breed; the kind of callous disregard we already see. It's easy and it's commonplace nowadays for people to just dismiss other people who have problems they can't comprehend by virtue of saying 'after all they can't be bothered'...it really is becoming quite neiztscheian.

 

[TAE]

Others might choose the piloting of "work for your benefits" schemes, which will undercut the minimum wage, offering as little as £1.73 an hour to claimants who have been unemployed for more than two years.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Try and instill some sort of self discipline and self respect and breaking behaviour patterns as well as breaking the cycle of addiction.

You can't 'instill' self discipline in other people. That's why they call it self discipline

 

[smokedout]

Fuck all unfortunately. Everyone at my project thinks it's shocking, no one thinks we can oppose it. Union membership is low in the organisation I work for (although I'm encouraging colleagues to join as management are trying to take away our cost of living award).

Upper management seem to see it as a way to win more contracts, with them tendering for some of the employability contracts.

this was the case with txxxxrxxxx, they fall inline because they smell money and they keep in line because theyre scared of that money being taken away