danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Or to put it another way: muddled liberal thinking in "makes things worse again" surprise.
The white working class; Britain’s forgotten race victims?
- Thread starter e19896
- Start date
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
"The white working classes are discriminated against on a range of different fronts, including their accent, their style, the food they eat, the clothes they wear, the social spaces they frequent, the postcode of their homes, possibly even their names. But they are not discriminated against because they are white,"
Moslty agree with this - however ...
I do communtiy work on social housing estates in East Leeds. Part of my brief is 'promoting community cohesion'. To me this means forging and developing common interests between working class people from different ethnic, cultural, national background - this ranges from doing 'cultural exchange' type stuff between young people or womens groups - day trips, workshops, sports tournament -whereever the common interest is - to forming and supporting residents acitons groups with representatvies from all the communtiies in the area
So we've had a WWC womens group doing a sereies of quilt and dressmaking workshops with a refugee womens group - no real problems, the women enjoyed it and learnt new skills and the refugee women were helped by the other women with their english (particualrly slang and swearwords!).
The reason I mention this is becase I get so pissed off with so many commutniy organsations and local authorities equating 'communtiy cohesion' with 'improving equality outcomes' for BME (black, minority, ethnic) groups.
So you get heatlh and educational outreach programs for pakistani and bangladeshi womone or youth clubs for young men of African/Carribean origin. Yet the white working class people - who live in exactly the same estates and suffer from the same lack of services and many of the same access issues - are excluded.
Inevitably the comon peception is that 'everything' is being done for 'immigrants and ethnics' - tbh I'm suprised that the far right isn't doing better than it is becasue this plays directly into their hands.
The problem is that inequality indicies contrast the minorioty groups agaisnt the national average. White Working Class people are generally not included as a 'minotiy group' so are classed as part of the 'white commuinity' as a whole - so their lack of educational achievment, poor access to adult learning, their poorer health, their lack of communtiy facilites etc gets overlooked.
The other problem is that large areas of funding have 'improving equality outcomes for BME communties' as part of their tick box critereia.
So by looking at inequality issues through the parametres of ethnicity rather than class, twenty years of social planning and community funding has been busy institutionalising segreagation and effectively discriminating agaisnt the white working class.
The answer is not - as the BNP prmote - for the WWC to pitch in with their own demands for a slice of the 'ethnic minority pie' but for a systamtic recognition that class is the defining factor in determining inequality before anything else and - ultimitely - for the working class of all backgrounds to unite and fight for their common interest.
Yes racism and culutral factors do play a part - i.e women of south asian origin do suffer beacsue of patriarchial attitudes within their own culture and wider racism but it is primarily their poverty (i.e their class position) that exacebates these factors - not the other way around.
There is belated recognition of these factors from many people within the communtiy and voluntary sector - but (surprise surprise) this tends to be from workers on the ground not at the senior levels of managment or policy makers.
Moslty agree with this - however ...
I do communtiy work on social housing estates in East Leeds. Part of my brief is 'promoting community cohesion'. To me this means forging and developing common interests between working class people from different ethnic, cultural, national background - this ranges from doing 'cultural exchange' type stuff between young people or womens groups - day trips, workshops, sports tournament -whereever the common interest is - to forming and supporting residents acitons groups with representatvies from all the communtiies in the area
So we've had a WWC womens group doing a sereies of quilt and dressmaking workshops with a refugee womens group - no real problems, the women enjoyed it and learnt new skills and the refugee women were helped by the other women with their english (particualrly slang and swearwords!).
The reason I mention this is becase I get so pissed off with so many commutniy organsations and local authorities equating 'communtiy cohesion' with 'improving equality outcomes' for BME (black, minority, ethnic) groups.
So you get heatlh and educational outreach programs for pakistani and bangladeshi womone or youth clubs for young men of African/Carribean origin. Yet the white working class people - who live in exactly the same estates and suffer from the same lack of services and many of the same access issues - are excluded.
Inevitably the comon peception is that 'everything' is being done for 'immigrants and ethnics' - tbh I'm suprised that the far right isn't doing better than it is becasue this plays directly into their hands.
The problem is that inequality indicies contrast the minorioty groups agaisnt the national average. White Working Class people are generally not included as a 'minotiy group' so are classed as part of the 'white commuinity' as a whole - so their lack of educational achievment, poor access to adult learning, their poorer health, their lack of communtiy facilites etc gets overlooked.
The other problem is that large areas of funding have 'improving equality outcomes for BME communties' as part of their tick box critereia.
So by looking at inequality issues through the parametres of ethnicity rather than class, twenty years of social planning and community funding has been busy institutionalising segreagation and effectively discriminating agaisnt the white working class.
The answer is not - as the BNP prmote - for the WWC to pitch in with their own demands for a slice of the 'ethnic minority pie' but for a systamtic recognition that class is the defining factor in determining inequality before anything else and - ultimitely - for the working class of all backgrounds to unite and fight for their common interest.
Yes racism and culutral factors do play a part - i.e women of south asian origin do suffer beacsue of patriarchial attitudes within their own culture and wider racism but it is primarily their poverty (i.e their class position) that exacebates these factors - not the other way around.
There is belated recognition of these factors from many people within the communtiy and voluntary sector - but (surprise surprise) this tends to be from workers on the ground not at the senior levels of managment or policy makers.
fuck me, some honasty there and thank you for that..
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
This could be called 'The Triumph of Multi-culturalism'. Top post KT.
"The white working classes are discriminated against on a range of different fronts, including their accent, their style, the food they eat, the clothes they wear, the social spaces they frequent, the postcode of their homes, possibly even their names. But they are not discriminated against because they are white,"
Have to agree. But the way some White middle class people talk about some white working class people is different from how thye would speak about Black or Asian people. To be honest though those people would shit on everyone, White Black or Asian.
Middle class anti racism is a huge problem in this country. It helps to foster a victim mentality amongst young Black people and increasingly muslim asians too. It completely overemphasises language as that is the easiest thing for the middle class to get right.
Have to agree. But the way some White middle class people talk about some white working class people is different from how thye would speak about Black or Asian people. To be honest though those people would shit on everyone, White Black or Asian.
Middle class anti racism is a huge problem in this country. It helps to foster a victim mentality amongst young Black people and increasingly muslim asians too. It completely overemphasises language as that is the easiest thing for the middle class to get right.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Thinking more on this - I think a lot of the multi-cultural/equality agenda seems to be about encouraging some individuals from BME groups to become middle class. It is certainly not about encouraing the working class from different backgrounds to make common casue with each other.
wonder why that is?
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Exactly and precisely.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
by overt design or by recieved wisdom and general attitude drift though?
By christ I hope the divisive workings are a product of circumstance and a fault of the system rather than an overt and well thought out attack
By christ I hope the divisive workings are a product of circumstance and a fault of the system rather than an overt and well thought out attack
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
More like those that shape social policy and the senior management of the community sector and of local government are all middle class proffesionals and tend to see society as a liberal meritocracy - what worked for them should work for other people.
The idea of building communtiy coheison and combatting racism and inequality by encouraging working class solidarity and collective (rather than individual) enpowerment would be utterly alien to them.
Great couple of posts kaka tim.
I agree absolutely.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Again, it's an unintended consequence of people seeking to do good. We all know the argument - until you see more BME folks in professional roles like barristers, architects etc the only predominant role models away from unemployment and crime are arts and sports (altho I suspect this is more directed at 2nd gen Afro-Carribean communities than the Indian, for example, where problems are less aspirational and more tied into culture/commuity (e.g . role of women). For some BME communities basic literacy in any language is the problem, but I digress), you'll continue to create w/c kids with low aspirational goals, even fewer role models etc etc.
Nowt wrong with that in principle, but as with many things the bureaucracy that's grown up to attempt to deal with the problem has become a self-creating entity in it's own right, and one that's unlikely to offer any kind of support outside of what it sees as it's own interests.
I think the other point remains in getting people from a diversity of cultures to accept the premise of a dead, white European's claim to the universality of the w/c, and placing that identifier above their nationality, faith etc, not to mention bringing them together in solidarity with people who's behaviour might be directly contrary to their own beliefs.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
well its less of a problem if they are living in the same street, with their kids going to the same school, using the same medical centre, shops, public transport. They're is plenty of obvous areas of shared interest and it really isn't hard to develop a certain level of mutality out of that if you can develop ways for people to get over a certain level of mutal ignorance and suspicion - the problem is that institutionlaised community and local govt strutures actively work agasint that happening.
Of course it dose, an organised militant working class as with The Minors Strike of 1984/85 (25 years on our class are still the underclass) all through the 1980,s the working class was organised militant and ready to riot right up to the poll tax of 1991, it has been a policy of Thatcher ism and now New Labour to keep the working class dumbed down, create an underclass that fights itself instead of the Middle Class the very root of our problems not any solution to them.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Sorry, but the roots of the current levels of division were laid back in the 60s and 70s, and only came to prominence when Thatcher shifted the country, incuding at least 1/3 of the w/c, to the right economically.
I think thats VERY true but i also think a lot of it is about encouraging a victim mentality. I think things like Black history month seem more and more like a sick joke these days. My 8 year old daughter knows who Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela are which is good but what about teaching social history. White people were not just kings and queens but have a history too that is varied and often inspiring.
the name just won't catch on, it doesn't have the catchiness of tony bliar, give it up mate
your a sad lonley prick arent you your sole contribution to this serious thread was an inane post which came about from your own personal middle class insecurities steeming from you rdefence of subserdised housing for middleclass professionals at the cost of the wider community and poor memebrs of society - the shortage of housing is one of the issues the bnp use and there you were arguing in favor of middleclass housing and here you are popping up being and being a sad twat imo its clear for all to see what you think of the working class full stop
Ann Tigonie
rabid feminist
We're all middle class now
I went to a 'workshop' about equality recently. People were asked to list where they felt discrimination occurred. There was a long list. When I mentioned class, the facilitaor reacted as though I'd just insulted his mother! He took a step backwards, gave a little gasp and looked genuinely shocked.
Class discrimination was an area that in 2 years of facilitating equality workshops hadn't occurred to him, or presumably anyone else attending his workshops. I found that pretty shocking.
I went to a 'workshop' about equality recently. People were asked to list where they felt discrimination occurred. There was a long list. When I mentioned class, the facilitaor reacted as though I'd just insulted his mother! He took a step backwards, gave a little gasp and looked genuinely shocked.
Class discrimination was an area that in 2 years of facilitating equality workshops hadn't occurred to him, or presumably anyone else attending his workshops. I found that pretty shocking.
and never to be forgotten, our time will come, I need no course of on how to get along with the middle class as I have no desire to allow my self such a delusion that there on our side, 25 years of being active, 43 years on this earth and every time you start to trust one of them they simply go fuck you over a good reason why I find myself openly classist and very intolerant of the middle class and what they stand for..
when you do try to debate with them, engage on there level you are the following:
marty21
One on one? You're crazy.
your a sad lonley prick arent you your sole contribution to this serious thread was an inane post which came about from your own personal middle class insecurities steeming from you rdefence of subserdised housing for middleclass professionals at the cost of the wider community and poor memebrs of society - the shortage of housing is one of the issues the bnp use and there you were arguing in favor of middleclass housing and here you are popping up being and being a sad twat imo its clear for all to see what you think of the working class full stop
wow, how did you get all that from my "inane post" ? and if you are referring to the other thread - you argued that we were anti right to buy because we were anti working class, that we wanted to stop the working class buying their council homes - and then you meander on about the shortage of housing - which was caused in part by right to buy - you made no sense in that thread - which is par for the course with you
Maybe as somebody who considers himself to be white working class I find these arguements a little to heavy on the prose.
For me the whole notion of what the white working class is or has become has been lost. The majority of the white working class are doing OK. They live in the suburbs, enjoy foreign holidays and quite high standards of living along with their kids doing well in School and going onto University in increasing numbers. They tend to keep themselves to themselves and just get on with things.
What this discussion is about is what I would term the welfare state dependant white working class, which is hell of a mouthful.
And yes, they seem to be getting the shitty end of the stick in many ways. They are the ones left behind by the white flight from inner city areas.
Now you can argue all you want about why they feel so pissed off with things but, and its going to sound harsh and no doubt have many of you slating me off, never discount the notion that many of them are drunken workshy layabouts because thats just what they enjoy doing. Throw in a welfare state that seems to just accept that and which funds such a lifestyle and no wonder they bleat when Johnny foreigner rolls off whatever boat or plane they do and then compete for those resources.
Of course they aint all just bark and their bite, which in electoral terms is when they vote BNP who are the only ones really bothered about listening to them, can sting but if you really want to get them to get more ambitious than having enough money in their pocket to see them through an entire 9.00am to midnight session in the local Wetherspoons then stop throwing money at them and tell them to stop being so feckless.
But what do I know ? I merely grew up with them.
For me the whole notion of what the white working class is or has become has been lost. The majority of the white working class are doing OK. They live in the suburbs, enjoy foreign holidays and quite high standards of living along with their kids doing well in School and going onto University in increasing numbers. They tend to keep themselves to themselves and just get on with things.
What this discussion is about is what I would term the welfare state dependant white working class, which is hell of a mouthful.
And yes, they seem to be getting the shitty end of the stick in many ways. They are the ones left behind by the white flight from inner city areas.
Now you can argue all you want about why they feel so pissed off with things but, and its going to sound harsh and no doubt have many of you slating me off, never discount the notion that many of them are drunken workshy layabouts because thats just what they enjoy doing. Throw in a welfare state that seems to just accept that and which funds such a lifestyle and no wonder they bleat when Johnny foreigner rolls off whatever boat or plane they do and then compete for those resources.
Of course they aint all just bark and their bite, which in electoral terms is when they vote BNP who are the only ones really bothered about listening to them, can sting but if you really want to get them to get more ambitious than having enough money in their pocket to see them through an entire 9.00am to midnight session in the local Wetherspoons then stop throwing money at them and tell them to stop being so feckless.
But what do I know ? I merely grew up with them.
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
I don't know how long ago you grew up with 'them' but that's a pretty inaccurate description of the current situation.
Thats fair enough. Just in a funny mood today. Got a shit bag of a brother who is the epitomy of white trash and just have very little sympathy for my own kind at the moment. They do seem to moan and bleat more than a lot of others who have far worse things to contend with.
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
What job, blears?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It is indeed, and it's also a total joke to say what this reports really discusses is the "the welfare state dependant white working class," when the report maks it 100% clear that it's not the case and that class effects all areas of life from the cradle to the grave - in work or not.
What a pompous last line as well 'I merely grew up with them' - only you eh stoat boy, only you.
*watches once interesting thread disappear down the shithole of exactly the same assumptions being tackled in the report*
Wouldn't it be a better idea to create work for people to go to instead of blaming the unemployed for their own problems? Aren't New Labour meant to be adopting Roosevelt's New Deal ideas?
Hazel Blears is ... there are no words to describe the weary tiredness and cringeing that overcomes me every time she opens her mouth. She would make a very good school prefect (if they still had them) at a posh all girls school.
Hazel Blears is ... there are no words to describe the weary tiredness and cringeing that overcomes me every time she opens her mouth. She would make a very good school prefect (if they still had them) at a posh all girls school.
Except its not going to happen. Its pure bullshit and spin.
Maybe it is just me and having seen my own family do quite well for themselves and with my kids being hopefully the first to make the leap into middle class proffessional security it is a sign of how things can be achieved but I think we succeeded despite the welfare state, not because of it. My Grandfathers were real dyed in the wool old fashioned reds who are no doubt turning in their graves to see me voting Tory but I do know that they both did not fight for what our society has become today.
I appreciate its a cliche and all that but the Welfare state was designed as a safety net, not a way of life and unfortunately it does act as something for those who are feckless to sponge off and seems to reward shit behaviour.
Yes there are lots of factors as to why the welfare dependant working class could have something to arseache about but for me their own fecklessness and lack of willingness to take responsibilty for their own actions should not be ignored. You quote Shameless, well I was always struck by how Franks family were portrayed. His actions are of somebody who made a deliberate choice to not do anything with his life and which I see mirrored by many who may well have been included in the report in question.
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