The War on Terror: after 5 years, what has it achieved?

[RHOQ]

Yes, that's the sort of thing I had in mind. What would a sane policy look like?

If we keep asking that question, we may find broad agreement on an answer.

One way in to it is to ask what Iraq had, and Iran and Al Queda (as a non-state actor) have in common vis a vis the Western interests in that region. One could describe them all as "economic/financial independents", in that they believe that if hooking up to the global economy means subverting their culturally defined conceptions of society/power, then they want to remain seperate from/independent of the global economy as is currently constructed.

If we were to accept that definition, a useful question to ask is "is it rational or justifiable for a nation or culturally distinct region of the world to want to remain outside, or try to set the terms of its relationship with, the global economy?"

 

[RHOQ]

I think AL Queda has been a big loser. A stated aim was the removal of America and anything not Muslim (such tolerant folks) from the Middle East.

Whatever their political objectives are, its clear to me that their strategy was to make themselves known, to provoke a conflict between East and West in the Mid-East, and to recruit more followers. Failure or success?

 

[mears]

Whatever their political objectives are, its clear to me that their strategy was to make themselves known, to provoke a conflict between East and West in the Mid-East, and to recruit more followers. Failure or success?

Well, if people didn't know Al Queda before they certainly do now. They would like an all out war between believers and non-believers but we are not there yet. The corrput secular regimes have not been replaced with taliban like, sharia governments. Nor have they pulled off a spectacular post 9-11 attack.

I would say its a mixed record.

 

[The Pious Pawn]

made a few select companys even richer

 

[RHOQ]

They would like an all out war between believers and non-believers but we are not there yet. I would say its a mixed record.

I'm sure the many thousands of dead and injured and grieving in Lebanon, Gaza/West Bank, Iraq, Afghansitan know what you mean.

Another way to measure it would be to look at how popular the Americans (and us) are in the Arab world right now. Not too popular I think you find.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It's not so much US popularity as their loss of control over events in general.

The characteristics of the war on terror are human rights violations and the wanton destruction of civil infrastructure by precision weapons and air power.

The first of those is terrible PR, but the second is the real problem. By smashing the infrastructure of a state, they do certainly produce a weakened subject state in most cases, but they also create an environment in which non-state resistance organisations readily coming into being.

Those sorts of organisations have been evolving fast to overcome US power.

We've recently seen a kind of transition with Hezbollah standing off Israel while the US is hopelessly bogged down by the Iraq insurgency/civil war.

This approach obviously doesn't prevent terrorism, but rather breeds more.

 

[RHOQ]

Progressives are mixed up about this because they know that genuine democracy in the Mid east and North Africa means more Islamic Governments.

Progressives have to reconcile themselves to this fact if the they're going to take on the arguments of the current proponents of the War on Terror.

That means dropping the Taleban boogeyman (a harsh regime born of a harsh history) and cultivating a dialogue with and understanding the aspirations of people we're are currently calling terrorists/ Islamists/ fundamentalists etc

If this dialogue does not happen soon, there'll be an abrupt disconnect, with unpredictable consequences.

Believe in genuine democracy and back the more sophistaicated Islamic movements in that region, and we'll have allies not enemies.

The alternative is to bomb them in to the globalised economic system under sham democracies perpetually threatened from terrorism.

 

[mears]

I'm sure the many thousands of dead and injured and grieving in Lebanon, Gaza/West Bank, Iraq, Afghansitan know what you mean.

Another way to measure it would be to look at how popular the Americans (and us) are in the Arab world right now. Not too popular I think you find.

I have seen no polls which indicate Afghanis or Iraqis miss the Taliban or Saddam.

At least we made a lot of friends in Pakistan withour generous assistance post earth quake.

You can see the love amongst Pakistanis living in Britian every day. British Pakistanis thanking the British and US governments, and indeed the tax payers in both countries for giving.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And Bush and Blair have been re-elected. I really don't know why anyone thinks they're incompetant. Well actually I do: people assume that their aims are to further the national self-interest of their countries and to protect the safety/welfare of their people. Wake up! Those aren't their aims, they never were.

IMO, Bush is the most incompetent president in a generation.

 

[Julie]

I agree, nothing has been achieved; the world is in a greater mess than it was before 2001. I think the war party are blinded by their desire to foment some sort of "clash of civilisations" to fulfil a biblical prophecy (ah, the arrogance of Xtian fundamentalists, who think their religion and their texts are the Truth) or to further line their own pockets with cash received from defence contracts.

The only real beneficiaries are the producers of killing technology.

Definitely.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Definitely.

Yeah. It's a damn shame those guys flew those planes into those buildings.

 

[phildwyer]

At least we made a lot of friends in Pakistan withour generous assistance post earth quake.

You can see the love amongst Pakistanis living in Britian every day. British Pakistanis thanking the British and US governments, and indeed the tax payers in both countries for giving.

That's true. I can hardly walk down the street in London without a Pakistani coming up and shaking my hand, embracing me, kissing on the cheek out of sheer heartfelt gratitude for my generosity. Its getting a bit much actually, do you think they might stop if we bombed them a bit?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

You could try alternately bombing and privatizing them, like in Iraq.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> The alternative is to bomb them into the globalised economic system under sham democracies perpetually threatened from terrorism.

I think this is the only policy currently on offer though, at least from any party that could possibly get itself elected.

So it's not obvious how we achieve a different one.

 

[fela fan]

And Bush and Blair have been re-elected. I really don't know why anyone thinks they're incompetant. Well actually I do: people assume that their aims are to further the national self-interest of their countries and to protect the safety/welfare of their people. Wake up! Those aren't their aims, they never were.

Speaking sense again mate!

Your first sentence speaks volumes.

But you've left out the role that the mainstream media in the two countries plays in looking after the elites' interests.

Or safeguarding them i should say.

Or upholding them.

It's this aspect that the likes of bush or blair have their population's interests at heart that derails the peoples' efforts at improving themselves that is most mind-boggling to me.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yeah. It's a damn shame those guys flew those planes into those buildings.

It's a damned shame that there are people around to support never-ending war and defend the actions of the greedy, the psychopathic and the incompetent.

 

[nino_savatte]

They've certainly been talking 'eternal war' (along with 'islamofascists') since at least the last QDR.

Eternal war means more money for defence contractors, which means more jobs...and this is how it is sold in Congress: merely as "jobs" to reduce the unemployment stats.

According to our leaders, we have always been at war with Oceania.

 

[mears]

That's true. I can hardly walk down the street in London without a Pakistani coming up and shaking my hand, embracing me, kissing on the cheek out of sheer heartfelt gratitude for my generosity. Its getting a bit much actually, do you think they might stop if we bombed them a bit?

Its great they appreciate the assistance for their own people. I hear the Mosques in England are filled with praise for this giving to their fellow Pakistanis back in the homeland.

Some rant about the jews. Pakistanis in England seem to have their priorities straight.

 

[rocketman]

Well, if people didn't know Al Queda before they certainly do now. They would like an all out war between believers and non-believers but we are not there yet. The corrput secular regimes have not been replaced with taliban like, sharia governments. Nor have they pulled off a spectacular post 9-11 attack.

Well, let's be honest, US State Department worked with Al Quaeda for years before 9.11. And in any case, I'm getting a bit sick of seeing 9.11 waved around as an excuse for anything and everything. Yes it was sad. yes it was awful. Yes, we still don't know the whole truth about what happened.

Seems to me the end result gave the US the justification it wanted to engage in a strategy that ultimately leads to a huge division between believers and non-believers in the Western capitalist system.

Only difference between the Bush.Cheney capitalists and the so-called mad extremist mullahs is that the latter have beards. Both elites described have no regard for humanity.

 

[rocketman]

Its great they appreciate the assistance for their own people. I hear the Mosques in England are filled with praise for this giving to their fellow Pakistanis back in the homeland.Some rant about the jews. Pakistanis in England seem to have their priorities straight.

Mears, you really do utter some absolute bollocks at times. Your description of Pakistani feeling in the UK is completely incorrect. The schism between extremists and peace loving folk continues to grow, and will do until the US/UK/Israel (the other axis of evil) cabal change their strategy in favour of democratic dialogue and the establishment of a regional consensus.

I do hope you realise that conflicts like this, conflicts that can never end, have been instrumental in the ultimate destruction of empires and countries in the past. The seeds that are being sown here, while utterly destructive in the Middle East, will in time be shown to have also destroyed so-called Western culture.

The whole charade is an endgame scenario, everything we see as normal will in time disappear. Why? Because it suits the short-term interests of the small and wealthy elites who run things on all sides. We, the ordinary folk, will suffer greatly, and lip-service puppets like yourself will be as negatively impacted, and given as little protection, as the rest of us.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its great they appreciate the assistance for their own people. I hear the Mosques in England are filled with praise for this giving to their fellow Pakistanis back in the homeland.

Some rant about the jews. Pakistanis in England seem to have their priorities straight.

You need to change your source of information then, given that what you purport to have heard is risible.

 

[Mallard]

I have seen no polls which indicate Afghanis or Iraqis miss the Taliban or Saddam.

At least we made a lot of friends in Pakistan withour generous assistance post earth quake.

You can see the love amongst Pakistanis living in Britian every day. British Pakistanis thanking the British and US governments, and indeed the tax payers in both countries for giving.

Keep 'em coming. You are being ironic I hope?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, let's be honest, US State Department worked with Al Quaeda for years before 9.11. And in any case, I'm getting a bit sick of seeing 9.11 waved around as an excuse for anything and everything. .

If 911 hadn't happened, there would have been no war in Afghanistan,and the Iraq war would have been impossible to swing in the US.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think that Rogers' review supports a fairly good case that the crowd who declared this war and who have been eagerly pursuing it for the last five years are incompetent and could not be trusted with the running of a whelk stall.

Just getting this thread back on topic - has anybody you know ever actually tried to run a whelk stall?

 

[Mallard]

If 911 hadn't happened, there would have been no war in Afghanistan,and the Iraq war would have been impossible to swing in the US.

Really? They managed to swing the first fiasco. They got away with starving kids in hospitals with the embargo. The government has managed to keep arming the Israelis, Saudis and Kuwaitis despite it being against the interests of peace and of the US public. Why would this madness be any different?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Really? They managed to swing the first fiasco. They got away with starving kids in hospitals with the embargo. The government has managed to keep arming the Israelis, Saudis and Kuwaitis despite it being against the interests of peace and of the US public. Why would this madness be any different?

I guess you forgot the bit with the first war where Saddam invaded Kuwait.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Just getting this thread back on topic - has anybody you know ever actually tried to run a whelk stall?

Organic or industrial?

 

[Mallard]

I guess you forgot the bit with the first war where Saddam invaded Kuwait.

How on earth did he manage that and where did he get those weapons One appalling totalitarian state invades another. How was intervening in anyway in the interests of the US public and how were they persuaded?

 

[MonkeyMagic]

the world is a safer place.

 

[Mallard]

the world is a safer place.

Have you had any exposure to TV/internet/newspapers recently or have I just missed the irony?