The veil: now it's getting silly.

[editor]

As said, you're making assumptions about methods of communication, much like the editor referred to 'mumbling'. A deaf or blind teacher can't communicate as well, so the comparison stands.

No, it doesn't. It's a truly specious comparison.

Rather an insulting one too.

 

[DarthSydodyas]

If the kids can't understand what she's saying, as has been alleged, I'd say so.
What do you think?

Unless she is lying, she was doing just fine.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

No matter whether she could be heard or not heard, it's hardly ideal for non-Muslim infants to be taught by someone who is unable to communicate any facial expressions, or offer an encouraging smile, or be seen to laugh or make faces, while remaining an anonymous face hidden behind a black veil.

Nice to see you've changed your tune from assuming she couldn't be understood to questioning the article.

So what if she's better than other staff at her job, is it still ok to sack her ahead of them?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Keep religion out of schools - sack Muslim women working in Church of England schools.

 

[editor]

So its acceptable for Muslim infants to be taught by someone who's face they can't see but not non-Muslim infants?

No, I think it's wrong for infants to be taught by black, hooded teachers, full stop.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

No, it doesn't. It's a truly specious comparison.

Rather an insulting one too.

It's not about communication then. Tell me, can a blind or deaf person communicate as well as a someone with excellent sight or hearing.

I love the way you've ignored point after point as well as introducing factually incorrect points to the argument. Dishonest.

 

[editor]

Unless she is lying, she was doing just fine.

Unless the school was lying, she wasn't.

Would you like your kids to be taught by black hooded people?

 

[editor]

I love the way you've ignored point after point as well as introducing factually incorrect points to the argument. Dishonest.

It's clear you're only interested in reducing this topic to personal point scoring, and I'm not interested.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

No, I think it's wrong for infants to be taught by black, hooded teachers, full stop.

Well I certainly haven't got a problem with black teachers and I'm stunned that you do.

Your posts are now positively demonising Muslim women wearing the veil. TBH, I think they're getting more and more offensive. Are you really that scared of someone who is slightly different from you?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

It's clear you're only interested in reducing this topic to personal point scoring, and I'm not interested.

That's your excuse for not addressing argument after argument?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

It's interesting how you still keep calling her a 'teacher' as well, when I've pointed out repeatedly she's not. Still making things up.

 

[trashpony]

It's not about communication then. Tell me, can a blind or deaf person communicate as well as a someone with excellent sight or hearing.

I love the way you've ignored point after point as well as introducing factually incorrect points to the argument. Dishonest.

Do you think if you are learning in a second language (which many of these children are as English is not their first language) it will be a help or a hindrance to be unable to see your teacher's mouth? Yes or no?

My nephew learns how to pronounce words by watching the way I say it. Yes I'm sure he could probably learn just by listening to me but it would be harder for him. And I don't see why any child who is in state education should have a hard thing made even harder.

 

[editor]

Well I certainly haven't got a problem with black teachers and I'm stunned that you do.

That cheap attempt at misrepresentating my words and introducing an unfounded racist slur tells me all I need to know about how low you're prepared to go.

You're a fucking disgrace.

 

[editor]

It's interesting how you still keep calling her a 'teacher' as well, when I've pointed out repeatedly she's not. Still making things up.

Muslim teacher defends her veil

A Muslim support teacher suspended for wearing a veil in class ....Muslim teacher defends her veil

Suspended teacher should have removed veil, say Muslim leaders

 

[danny la rouge]

It's clear you're only interested in reducing this topic to personal point scoring, and I'm not interested.

To be fair, we can't really tell whether the teacher - or learning support assistant or whatever - is good or not without knowing her work. We're only going on media reports. Rather than getting bogged down in a specific case we're better tackling the wider issue.

Which is that it's racist to back away from saying something is misogynistic, oppressive, and wrong because of the ethnicity of the oppressed people and the oppressive culture. That is patronising and assumes 'they can't help being reactionary, poor dears'. In short, it's racist.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Do you think if you are learning in a second language (which many of these children are as English is not their first language) it will be a help or a hindrance to be unable to see your teacher's mouth? Yes or no?

My nephew learns how to pronounce words by watching the way I say it. Yes I'm sure he could probably learn just by listening to me but it would be harder for him. And I don't see why any child who is in state education should have a hard thing made even harder.

You should know damn well that you don't communicate just by making students listen in class, whether or not you can see the person's mouth.

Still, if this support worker is the best at her job in the school, good to know she'd be sacked because of her choice of clothing, rather than her ability to do the job.

It's about her ability to do the job. Full stop. Not with conditions. Not bypassing competency because there's an excuse over a veil. Not bypassing support.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

The last bastion of a lack of argument. The rolleyes. She's a support worker. Just because the bbc is lazy (by the way, I notice the Times has used 'teacher' in the headline but been accurate in the story) doesn't mean that you should continually use it.

You're giving the impression students are in a class not being able to understand their teacher. However, we've learned she doesn't "mumble" (a disgraceful aspersion cast I'm sure because she's Muslim) and that she's not a teacher - but you still use it.

Be a bit more honest in your argument.

 

[Guineveretoo]

No matter whether she could be heard or not heard, it's hardly ideal for non-Muslim infants to be taught by someone who is unable to communicate any facial expressions, or offer an encouraging smile, or be seen to laugh or make faces, while remaining an anonymous face hidden behind a black veil.

That's at least twice you have suggested that it's because the children were "non-Muslim" that they should not be taught English by someone in the full veil. I would go further, and point out that teachers of Muslim children also need to show their faces, particularly when they are teaching children to speak in a language which is not their first language, which is what this woman's job entailed. Women Muslim teachers of Muslim children do not wear the veil whilst with children.

I really don't know what is behind this, though. I also heard her on the radio, saying that she had never insisted on wearing the veil whilst teaching, so it's a bit of a mystery, and we should exercise caution about what we say. IMHO.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

That cheap attempt at misrepresentating my words and introducing an unfounded racist slur tells me all I need to know about how low you're prepared to go.

You're a fucking disgrace.

No, you said it twice, as well as implying that all Muslims who wear a veil "mumble" and you call me a disgrace. What do you mean when you call people black then? I haven't changed your words at all. I just quoted them.

 

[editor]

I would go further, and point out that teachers of Muslim children also need to show their faces, particularly when they are teaching children to speak in a language which is not their first language, which is what this woman's job entailed. Women Muslim teachers of Muslim children do not wear the veil whilst with children.

Agree.

 

[editor]

No, you said it twice, as well as implying that all Muslims who wear a veil "mumble" and you call me a disgrace. What do you mean when you call people black then? I haven't changed your words at all. I just quoted them.

"Black, hooded teachers" as in teachers wearing black hoods you deceitful, twisting moron.

 

[likesfish]

as its a christian school whats is she doing in the pay of infidals?

 

[Guineveretoo]

And you don't know if she could communicate as well as someone with a thich Jamaican accent, but you'd sack such a person according to your earlier post.

(what actually happens is that students and teacher adapt, and develop understanding as they get used to the accent [in the case of good staff] or piss about [in the case of shit staff])

To be perfectly frank, I wouldn't employ someone with a "thick Jamaican accent" if the job was purely to assist children to learn English, when they don't have English as a first language!

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

That's at least twice you have suggested that it's because the children were "non-Muslim" that they should not be taught English by someone in the full veil. I would go further, and point out that teachers of Muslim children also need to show their faces, particularly when they are teaching children to speak in a language which is not their first language, which is what this woman's job entailed. Women Muslim teachers of Muslim children do not wear the veil whilst with children.

I really don't know what is behind this, though. I also heard her on the radio, saying that she had never insisted on wearing the veil whilst teaching, so it's a bit of a mystery, and we should exercise caution about what we say. IMHO.

Well said, but I would also say that if she can do her job well wearing the veil we shouldn't be prescriptive.

As I said, I've seen someone with a thick Jamaican accent, several with thick Australian accents, a deaf music teacher and a blind teacher, all of whom have problems with communicating, turn these 'problems' into positive benefits, supported by technology and using the class as a learning area and staff as one (very important) resource amongst many rather than seeing learning as 'delivered' by facilitators and students being 'filled up' by teaching.

 

[trashpony]

You should know damn well that you don't communicate just by making students listen in class, whether or not you can see the person's mouth.

Still, if this support worker is the best at her job in the school, good to know she'd be sacked because of her choice of clothing, rather than her ability to do the job.

It's about her ability to do the job. Full stop. Not with conditions. Not bypassing competency because there's an excuse over a veil. Not bypassing support.

Whatever. I'm going to wear a sack over my head when I start teaching. I hope you'll be around to defend my right to do so.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

To be perfectly frank, I wouldn't employ someone with a "thick Jamaican accent" if the job was purely to assist children to learn English, when they don't have English as a first language!

If that's true, you'd also fail equal opps legislation.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

"Black, hooded teachers" as in teachers wearing black hoods you deceitful, twisting moron.

Well in that case you should say 'teachers in black hoods' to be clear.

What you said was what I accused you of saying.

Now, there's a million other points to make. Like should students be allowed to wear a cross in school?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Also, please stop with the off topic insults and debate properly.

 

[Guineveretoo]

the keyboard rather reveal the problems with this argument?
Of course from the outside its difficult to judge the specifics of the case, but why is it being brought up now? Promoted as such a shocking example of Muslim women preventing education and integration? Clearly for only one reason, to support Jack Straw, to imply that its the fault of Muslim veil wearing women, that their is Islamophobia, intolerance racism etc. That its their fault that they are oppressed, because of the "choice" to wear the veil.
We don't know this woman's situation at all, how much "choice" she really had in the matter. How tolerant her partner would be of such a "choice" for example.
But what is clear that this has only become an issue now because the government wants to blame the victims of racism for their situation.

It has been brought up now because it has gone to an employment tribunal and because it is topical, partly, yes, because of Jack Straw's peculiar comments.

But do you really think that the headteacher in Dewsbury who took this action, only did so because s/he is a supporter of Jack Straw? What evidence do you have of that?

Of course, there is no such thing as coincidence, is there?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

I think it's coincidence, but it's getting a lot of attention because of Jack Straw's comments.