The veil: now it's getting silly.

[Wilf]

One of the best teachers I've ever seen was blind. The kids could communicate extremely well with her, and they adapted. Valuable extra learning took place. Why should every lesson conform to the stereotypes that people on here seek to impose? Or should we sack any blind teachers.

Believe it or not, I've seen a superb deaf music teacher (they were a trainee at the time) as well. Sack? Or not?

See, my problem is people here have no idea if she is good at her job or how much the kids are learning. Some people want to sack her just because of what she is wearing. Crap.

As a comparison, that's illogical - and its pretty offensive, comparing disabilities with what what someone chooses to do. Presumably she chose to do the veil thing - even if there isn't any justification for it in islamic theo-bullshit. she's playing a tedious game. I wouldn't sack her - but lets not pretend this is something that helps her teaching.

 

[editor]

As a comparison, that's illogical - and its pretty offensive, comparing disabilities with what what someone chooses to do.

Exactly.

 

[oryx]

If I had kids, I would not want them to be influenced by a culture which portrayed both genders in such an apalling light, which is what lies behind the full veil.

Men = have such uncontrollable urges that women cannot even show their hair or mouths.

Women = must dress in an uncomfortable, repressive garment so as not to tempt these men, with their uncontrollable urges.

 

[danny la rouge]

Men = have such uncontrollable urges that women cannot even show their hair or mouths.

Women = must dress in an uncomfortable, repressive garment so as not to tempt these men, with their uncontrollable urges.

That about sums it up, in all its foul, misogynistic, ludicrousness.

 

[Wilf]

That about sums it up, in all its foul, misogynistic, ludicrousness.

and thats point. Usually, as western wiberals, we emphasise that veils and burkahs are repressive to women (something which I do think) - but just sometimes we should have the self confidence to say 'no, just hold on a minute, that's pretty offensive to me'

 

[DexterTCN]

Believe it or not, I've seen a superb deaf music teacher (they were a trainee at the time) as well. Sack? Or not?

What's that got to do with inappropriate religious wear in front of primary school children?

On the other hand...fuck's sake..another Muslim controversy in the news...there's a fucking surpirse.

 

[danny la rouge]

but just sometimes we should have the self confidence to say 'no, just hold on a minute, that's pretty offensive to me'

But we don't because 'we' (by which I actually mean liberals) get all confused about race. 'We can't criticise this stuff, because that'd be, like, oppressing brown people. Man.'

Well, bollocks. Sometimes something is just wrong. And if that thing is wrong, why would it be OK for people from certain ethnic backgrounds? Is it because 'it's their culture'? Isn't that being racist? Isn't that pretty patronoising? What?- can't brown people help themselves from oppressing women? Don't be daft, misogyny is to be deplored wherever it happens. Even when it happens in a culture or ethnicity that is being unfairly treated in other areas.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

But we don't because 'we' (by which I actually mean liberals) get all confused about race. 'We can't criticise this stuff, because that'd be, like, oppressing brown people. Man.'

Well, bollocks. Sometimes something is just wrong. And if that thing is wrong, why would it be OK for people from certain ethnic backgrounds? Is it because 'it's their culture'? Isn't that being racist? Isn't that pretty patronoising? What?- can't brown people help themselves from oppressing women? Don't be daft, misogyny is to be deplored wherever it happens. Even when it happens in a culture or ethnicity that is being unfairly treated in other areas.

It is daft.

Moreover this veil case is ridiculous, when there have been instances of Christians being told not to wear a cross. What is worse, a veil covering the entire face, or a small cross on a chain?

I'm not Christian, but it does seem to me that there is a real imbalance in the UK at the moment. Muslims great, Christians awful.

 

[TonkaToy]

The kids are racist and the teacher is one silly bitch.

If I was her, I would have turned up to lessons looking like this:

And the little fuckers wouldn't have complained about any language barriers because I would have strangled them.

 

[Jonti]

That is absolutely correct.

And therein lies the rub. Other religions won't like being told religion should stay out of school. Not when they want 'Intelligent Design' presented as of equal importance to Evolution by Natural Selection. For example. No, they'll stick up for each other on that stuff.

I wonder. You cannot promote any religion without trampling on another religion's beliefs or principles.

In the States at any rate, most law suits against schools introducing this or that religious practice are brought, not by secularists, but by offended religionists of a different Faith.

 

[portman]

Even better. I've just read the article and someone needs to get their facts right. This wasn't even a teacher at all but a support worker (on very little money).

I've worked with one who wears a veil with no problems (and actually with massive assistance for EAL students).

You're also supporting a Church of England school in sacking a support worker because you think they should keep religion out of school.

Still, good to know in the quote above that you'd fall foul of equal opportunities legislation.

Sigh - here we go again...

If the veil wearing woman in question is a support worker, it's still the case that effective communication is an absolute must for the job. Being a support worker is a bloody hard job at the best of times (my wife is one) and involves a wide range of interactive techniques to help vulnerable pupils. That includes empathy and the occasional smile of encouragement - a bit difficult with a veil over your face I would have thought. The ability to communicate with facial expression is a vital component of being an effective support worker.

Any role in education demands effective communication skills and any candidate for a job in that sector, regardless of race, creed or belief has to be judged and selected on the same, rigorous set of criteria, with no allowances being made. The aim is getting the right candidate for the job - as simple as that.

As for you pointing out the fact it was a Church of England school - fair comment. Personally, if I had the power, I'd scrap any faith based schools regardless of whether they are C of E, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. Religion is a private matter for the individual and in my opinion should be kept out of public life and certainly out of education.

As should any form of identity politics which only serves to highlight the differences between people and pits one group against another. The liberal left's obsession with the promotion of identity politics has done untold damage to any progressive political project that has attempted to unite people. It has also wrecked any notion of equality involving equal rights and equal responsibilities. Strangely, the liberal left has yet to wake up, smell the coffee, and realise how much damage they have caused by banging on about identity as opposed to trying to unite people around progressive, universal goals.

 

[DarthSydodyas]

Was she actually good at her job?

 

[happie chappie]

Hard to disagree with Portman, especially the last paragraph on identity.

However, the teaching assistant was just interviewed on Radio 4. She said she was wearing the veil while being interviewed, and it was perfectly possible to understand what she was saying but, of course, I couldn't see her face, so that element of communication was missing from the exchange and it may (or may not) have been the poorer for it.

She also said that she was happy to remove the veil in front of children while in the classroom, and would only cover up when in the presence of an adult male, eg if working with another male teacher in the classroom, on occasions in the playground etc. This, she said, did not satisfy her employer who, she said, insisted that the veil was removed at all times while on the school premises.

As it happens, I don't particularly like the veil, or what it stands for, but I do respects someone's right to dress as they see fit. Surely, if the woman in question is correct in what's she's saying, there's more than enough room for compromise on this one.

Happie Chappie

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Would this apply in any other instance though? Would you be happy with a male employee who insisted on coming in wearing a ninja mask? He could claim to be a member of the Jedi religion, as surveyed in the 2001 census...

 

[DarthSydodyas]

Hell, yeah. I'd go back to school just for that.

 

[editor]

Was she actually good at her job?

Read the article: the kids couldn't understand what she was saying because she had a great big veil stuck over her head.

If a teacher can't communicate and teach, there's not much point her being there.

 

[editor]

However, the teaching assistant was just interviewed on Radio 4. She said she was wearing the veil while being interviewed, and it was perfectly possible to understand what she was saying but, of course, I couldn't see her face, so that element of communication was missing from the exchange and it may (or may not) have been the poorer for it.

Without knowing how she was mic'ed up, there's not much substance to that point, to be honest. For all you know, she could have had a clip-on mic underneath the veil or have been close-mic'ed.

This, she said, did not satisfy her employer who, she said, insisted that the veil was removed at all times while on the school premises.

That directly contradicts the BBC report:

Bilingual support worker Aishah Azmi, 24, was asked to remove the veil after pupils found it hard to understand her during English language lessons.

Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, said she could wear the veil outside the classroom.

 

[mauvais]

Oh come on. There's something distinctly funny about it.

Teacher: "Tdeehh chldrn, wuh r geh teh lrn thr elphbt"

Children: "You what!?"

Teacher: "Mmmm! Gbbrrbble! MMMM FFFGGRRR! Jnthn! Bhv!"

Children: "Fark orf!"

 

[DarthSydodyas]

BBC story

But Ms Azmi told Today: "It hasn't caused a problem between myself and the children. They've never complained and we had a brilliant relationship."

She added: "To say the students have a problem with communication, that's not right."

Disputing the school's version of events, she insisted she had always been willing to take off her veil in front of the children but would not in front of male colleagues.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Surely it's bad for staff morale if she can't take it off in front of male colleagues though?

Personally I find this utterly pathetic.

 

[editor]

No matter whether she could be heard or not heard, it's hardly ideal for non-Muslim infants to be taught by someone who is unable to communicate any facial expressions, or offer an encouraging smile, or be seen to laugh or make faces, while remaining an anonymous face hidden behind a black veil.

 

[trashpony]

No matter whether she could be heard or not heard, it's hardly ideal for non-Muslim infants to be taught by someone who is unable to communicate any facial expressions, or offer an encouraging smile, or be seen to laugh or make faces, while remaining an anonymous face hidden behind a black veil.

I don't really think it's great for any kids, muslim or not.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Sigh - here we go again...

If the veil wearing woman in question is a support worker, it's still the case that effective communication is an absolute must for the job. Being a support worker is a bloody hard job at the best of times (my wife is one) and involves a wide range of interactive techniques to help vulnerable pupils. That includes empathy and the occasional smile of encouragement - a bit difficult with a veil over your face I would have thought. The ability to communicate with facial expression is a vital component of being an effective support worker.

Any role in education demands effective communication skills and any candidate for a job in that sector, regardless of race, creed or belief has to be judged and selected on the same, rigorous set of criteria, with no allowances being made. The aim is getting the right candidate for the job - as simple as that.

As for you pointing out the fact it was a Church of England school - fair comment. Personally, if I had the power, I'd scrap any faith based schools regardless of whether they are C of E, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim. Religion is a private matter for the individual and in my opinion should be kept out of public life and certainly out of education.

As should any form of identity politics which only serves to highlight the differences between people and pits one group against another. The liberal left's obsession with the promotion of identity politics has done untold damage to any progressive political project that has attempted to unite people. It has also wrecked any notion of equality involving equal rights and equal responsibilities. Strangely, the liberal left has yet to wake up, smell the coffee, and realise how much damage they have caused by banging on about identity as opposed to trying to unite people around progressive, universal goals.

As said, you're making assumptions about methods of communication, much like the editor referred to 'mumbling'. A deaf or blind teacher can't communicate as well, so the comparison stands.

Still, impose your standards on others, why not?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Was she actually good at her job?

This is the far more crucial question to me and everyone else. Or more importantly, was she worse than other staff members under threat of dismissal under competency procedures?

 

[DarthSydodyas]

No matter whether she could be heard or not heard, it's hardly ideal for non-Muslim infants to be taught by someone who is unable to communicate any facial expressions, or offer an encouraging smile, or be seen to laugh or make faces, while remaining an anonymous face hidden behind a black veil.

So, was she a bad teacher?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Hard to disagree with Portman, especially the last paragraph on identity.

However, the teaching assistant was just interviewed on Radio 4. She said she was wearing the veil while being interviewed, and it was perfectly possible to understand what she was saying but, of course, I couldn't see her face, so that element of communication was missing from the exchange and it may (or may not) have been the poorer for it.

She also said that she was happy to remove the veil in front of children while in the classroom, and would only cover up when in the presence of an adult male, eg if working with another male teacher in the classroom, on occasions in the playground etc. This, she said, did not satisfy her employer who, she said, insisted that the veil was removed at all times while on the school premises.

As it happens, I don't particularly like the veil, or what it stands for, but I do respects someone's right to dress as they see fit. Surely, if the woman in question is correct in what's she's saying, there's more than enough room for compromise on this one.

Happie Chappie

As I said, it's perhaps good to get your facts straight before saying it's 'getting silly'.

 

[editor]

So, was she a bad teacher?

If the kids can't understand what she's saying, as has been alleged, I'd say so.
What do you think?

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Without knowing how she was mic'ed up, there's not much substance to that point, to be honest. For all you know, she could have had a clip-on mic underneath the veil or have been close-mic'ed.That directly contradicts the BBC report:

And you don't know if she could communicate as well as someone with a thich Jamaican accent, but you'd sack such a person according to your earlier post.

(what actually happens is that students and teacher adapt, and develop understanding as they get used to the accent [in the case of good staff] or piss about [in the case of shit staff])

 

[fanciful]

So its acceptable for Muslim infants to be taught by someone who's face they can't see but not non-Muslim infants?
Doesn't your slip of the keyboard rather reveal the problems with this argument?
Of course from the outside its difficult to judge the specifics of the case, but why is it being brought up now? Promoted as such a shocking example of Muslim women preventing education and integration? Clearly for only one reason, to support Jack Straw, to imply that its the fault of Muslim veil wearing women, that their is Islamophobia, intolerance racism etc. That its their fault that they are oppressed, because of the "choice" to wear the veil.
We don't know this woman's situation at all, how much "choice" she really had in the matter. How tolerant her partner would be of such a "choice" for example.
But what is clear that this has only become an issue now because the government wants to blame the victims of racism for their situation.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

Surely it's bad for staff morale if she can't take it off in front of male colleagues though?

Personally I find this utterly pathetic.

"You don't want to reveal yourself in front of men, but I insist you do".

That's reprehensible.