The Validity of Israel?

[purplex]

That would be anti-Flemitic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I just meant that Israel was founded in 1948 with the intention that it was to be officially a Jewish State just as the UK is officially Church of England ..

No, not really.
In the UK the C of E is "established" as the "official" version of Protestantism validated by the state.
In the state of Israel, Judaism (i.e. "what religious Jews do as worship/veneration") is only a part of what "being Jewish" is about, and the idea of a "Jewish state" is an idea based on official acceptance of "Jewish culture" (a broad church indeed) having primacy over other cultures.

 

[durruti02]

I've read it, Mr Patronising. So what, in your view, constitutes a "pariah state"? Is it one which doesn't conform to western mores or one which behaves in such an appallingly brutal fashion towards either its own people or those of a neighbouring country? Furthermore, where did you even mention the word "pariah" in your post? Hmmmm?

I reckon you see Israel as conforming to 'western' notions of 'democracy' and see absolutely no contradiction in the behaviour of Israel.

Try doing some thinking for a change.

you clearly have not read what i wrote .. my point is ALL states are from the purposes of socialists 'paraiah' .. all states NOT just Israel are founded on ethnic cleansing and cultural and ethnic oppression ..

btw my post was to frogwoman .. she was saying how difficult it is as a jew to go from supportrting to understanding Israel .. my pov is that she and all jews should be no more guilty, be no more shocked than anyone else re 'their' countries .. and just as america has it revolutionary history as does the Uk as does france so does Israel just as much as its dark side

 

[frogwoman]

oh yeh i know all of that in an academic setting, but coming to terms with the fact that israel has a dark side was really really shocking for me. of course jews shouldn't feel guilty, but when so much of what is emphasised, in the jewish religion, in scripture, in the culture, history etc is about the persecution of the jews and the duty of the jews to stand up for people whose rights are being violated, the idea of the "chosen people" and the like, and then when you look at israel its difficult to know what to say really.

im not saying that i think all jewish people should feel some sort of collective guilt for what happened to the palestinians, as that is obviously racist bollocks, but my personal feelings were that i felt in some way responsible and the behaviour of israel is one of the reasons that has led to my (sort of) abandoning religion to an extent, because the values i've described are so irreconcilable to zionism and also to the way a lot of people behave who are sympathetic to it

iyswim

 

[DotCommunist]

Apartheid on West Bank - nobody cares
Shots coming from the left flank, the kids unaware
Refugee camps a death camp, live by the flares
I'm here to treat me like I got opinions nobody shares?
My politics is more than just 'fuck Tony Blair'
Gordon Brown, David Cameron, that's why I'm still standing
I'm more inclined to expose Israel to their apartheid
Bring on your excuses, the truth is you can't hide
Even when our politicians in the West act righteous and piest
Doing what they do best - start talking all about road maps and shit
While Israelis are busy busting caps and shit
Got the bulldozers out and constructing shit
This place another farmer but that land is his
When Hamas fired rockets Israel rebounds
Kills five times more, locks the checkpoints down
How the fuck you putting checkpoints there to start with?
When that land's Palistinian, it's known and it's chartered
Collective punishment, they dish it out daily
So I hate Israel but I don't hate Israelis
Do you get that? Think a little bit before you get pissed
And is it any wonder Gaza kids adopt a death wish
And don't beleive that being Jewish is the same as being pro-Zionist
That's a Zionist game to make you think cussing Israel's a racist

/random off topic braintax lyrics

 

[durruti02]

oh yeh i know all of that in an academic setting, but coming to terms with the fact that israel has a dark side was really really shocking for me. of course jews shouldn't feel guilty, but when so much of what is emphasised, in the jewish religion, in scripture, in the culture, history etc is about the persecution of the jews and the duty of the jews to stand up for people whose rights are being violated, the idea of the "chosen people" and the like, and then when you look at israel its difficult to know what to say really.

im not saying that i think all jewish people should feel some sort of collective guilt for what happened to the palestinians, as that is obviously racist bollocks, but my personal feelings were that i felt in some way responsible and the behaviour of israel is one of the reasons that has led to my (sort of) abandoning religion to an extent, because the values i've described are so irreconcilable to zionism and also to the way a lot of people behave who are sympathetic to it

iyswim

yes fair play i do know what you mean .. ( well i think i can understand ) .. i just think it is wrong that 'the jews' ( and israel) are meant to be forever perfect .. and of course that is jew as much as goy who reinforce that! lol

have you read julia neubergers 'on being jewish'? she looks at many of these issues/contradictions ..

personally i am not and was never relegious .. though jewishness disguised in anglicanism ( i never heard of the trinity and jesus was seen as a jew) as well as south walian non conformity both imho affected my upbringing deeply .. so i have never had to confront what you have ..

but i did reject welsh nationalism ( which as i teenager i was seduced by ) for the same reasons .. all nationalism leads to blood shed imho .. it all sounds great until it is put into affect ..

btw have you read the "steve cohen RIP" thread and his new intro to his Anti Semitism in The Left in the link BA put up .. very interesting stuff .. he talks of being an anti zionist zionist ..

 

[nino_savatte]

you clearly have not read what i wrote .. my point is ALL states are from the purposes of socialists 'paraiah' .. all states NOT just Israel are founded on ethnic cleansing and cultural and ethnic oppression ..

btw my post was to frogwoman .. she was saying how difficult it is as a jew to go from supportrting to understanding Israel .. my pov is that she and all jews should be no more guilty, be no more shocked than anyone else re 'their' countries .. and just as america has it revolutionary history as does the Uk as does france so does Israel just as much as its dark side

You're a patronising sod, aren't you? I've read it and all you're doing is clouding the issue. Do try and be honest for a change.