The Validity of Israel?
- Thread starter isitme
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Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I think you're wrong on three counts.
Yes, there is the spanish one, made on the anniversary of the attacks in spain.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/11/madrid.anniversary/
So, that was the world's first one: what other ones followed?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
They still seem to get issued, though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You were implying that no fatwa had ever been issued towards bin laden and. You were wrong, they had.
You now incorrectly claim the one i found was the first ever such fatwa (as if this effects your orginal implication at all). Here is another one - from even before 911. Here's one from 2 weeks after 911 just to block that alley-of-retreat off as well.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Johnny old son, you could go to some night school courses, convert to Islam and issue you own fatwas as a muslim scholar. 'Tis a very democratic religion, see?
Heck, I've sought fatwas myself concerning financial products! You just get loads of advice from different scholars, and pick the advice that makes most sense to you*.
I expect Alde would issue you a fatwah on the subject of your choice, if you were to ask him nicely!
*Not trying to give you ideas here
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
an actual real life situation where first past the post might be the best system?
Scary, isn't it?
This is a genuine question to which I do not know the answer, please receive it as such.
*Did* Rachamim18 ever explicitly state that he is a racist? I never saw him do that, though I did see him deny it on many occasions.
Then again, I never saw him admit to being a fascist either, but someone has now pointed out to me that he did indeed do so.
But then again, he made quite an interesting case for *Jewish* fascism being inherently different (and better) than other forms of fascism.
Anyway, I still wish he hadn't been banned, yes, I'm sure you've all got the point by now...
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
His pretty clear persistent line that Palestine has no history, they they don't really belong there, that they've got no claim and that the Jews, and only the Jews, have the right to live there is pretty clear Phil. Fascism is fascism, it's anti-working class to the core whether it's Kosher fascism, clerical fascism or Italian Corporatist fascism.
None of that is *racism* though. And did he actually advocate the expulsion of Arabs from the state of Israel (again, a genuine question)?
Hmm. Rach's fascism seemed more of the ultra-nationalist variety to me. And there is a case to be made that, given the absoultely unique sufferings undergone by the Jews for 3,000 years, Jewish ultra-nationalism is more justifiable than other brands.
Note that I do not agree with this case, and in fact disagree with it vehemently. But I can see how rational and non-racist people could come to hold it.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
The denial of histiory, the denial of a nationhood, the denial of their right to exist in their historic homeland because they're not real descen dents of his kin is pretty clear racism phil
He said himself he was a fascist, made it perfectly clear on this board. Jewish racism towards Arabs and others is no more justifiable than any other racism. That the understandable history and persecution of Jews is undeniable doen't then make the horrors enacted by the Israeli state justifiable.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
3000 years?
Seem to recall the Solomon had wars of conquest and Israel was actually the biggest local power for rather a long time - hence the reason why the Queen of Sheba popped over and shagged him - so it cant have been all bad - I mean groupies raely fuck the band at the bottom of the bill, right?
Its also true that Hadrians actions against Israel were as a result of mass murder by a fairly large section of North African Jews against what they concidered unbeliever type idol worshippers
Of course Isreal has validity, but I agree with ye Olde Saudi King - the Krauts started it, Isreal should in fact be in Bavaria with a bit of Austira thrown in - they'd probably do better in the Eurovision Song moolie that way
Seem to recall the Solomon had wars of conquest and Israel was actually the biggest local power for rather a long time - hence the reason why the Queen of Sheba popped over and shagged him - so it cant have been all bad - I mean groupies raely fuck the band at the bottom of the bill, right?
Its also true that Hadrians actions against Israel were as a result of mass murder by a fairly large section of North African Jews against what they concidered unbeliever type idol worshippers
Of course Isreal has validity, but I agree with ye Olde Saudi King - the Krauts started it, Isreal should in fact be in Bavaria with a bit of Austira thrown in - they'd probably do better in the Eurovision Song moolie that way
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
The Bible is full of "heroic" tales of Jews dishing as much as they take, not that that's relevant ...
the reason why the zionist movement developed isn't because of anti-semitism
it attracted SUPPORT because of that reason, but many holocaust survivors are fucking appalled at the horrors done in Israel's name, as are many other survivors of anti-Semitic atrocities over the years ... sorry ... many people after the holocaust were horrified at the idea of Israel.
60 years on it is not an excuse - if it ever was, given that the zionist enterprise started well before the holocaust took place
the reason why the zionist movement developed isn't because of anti-semitism
it attracted SUPPORT because of that reason, but many holocaust survivors are fucking appalled at the horrors done in Israel's name, as are many other survivors of anti-Semitic atrocities over the years ... sorry ... many people after the holocaust were horrified at the idea of Israel.
60 years on it is not an excuse - if it ever was, given that the zionist enterprise started well before the holocaust took place
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
No it's not. Racism would be saying Arabs are in some way intrinsically inferior to other races. Zionism, even the most militant variety (which is what you describe here), is not racism.
I know he called himself a fascist, I've seen that post. But he also argued, quite persuasively I thought, that fascism is not necessarily racist.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
No, that would be a belief in racial supremacy/superiority not simple racism. The hatred of another race purely because they are 'other' is racism.
Zionism not racist? The idea that others don't belong and have no right to a homeland there because they are not Jews?!
Yeah absolutely, fascists are not all racists and not all racists are fascists.
But not all Zionists believe that. Anyone who believes the state of Israel should exist is a Zionist.
And then there's the fact that Judaism is a religion rather than a race, which opens a whole new can of matzoh balls...
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
I know that, I don't believe that anyone who believes that Israel should exist is a Zionist either. I support the '2 state solution', that does not make me a zionist.An Israeli national consciousnerss has undoubtedly developed as such to eradicate the state and try to eradicate that national consciousness would be a serious error imho. As someone once said, the decision to create the state of Israel was a big political mistake but to end it as a state would also be a grave political mistake/wrong and two wrongs don't make a right.
Agreed
Doesn't it? It certainly would have up to and including 1948.
Lots of holocaust movies at the moment. Someones getting worried.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Who?
I think the Israel´s are getting worried. Don Rumsfeld no longer in the white house. Barack Obama is instead. He don´t give two hoots about the jews, so Us funds going to go to help HIV in Africa. Muslims see there chance.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Right, bye.
You raise some interesting points, and I think we'd all like to hear more. How for example do you think Obama's election will influence American policy towards Cuba?
It isn't 1948 tho
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
To refer to someone as a national socialist in 1904 has mmassively differernt connotations to using the same word/descriptor topday wouldn't you say?! Words change and their social and cultural meanings change aswell. Calling a man a 'gay fellow' in 1850 has a slightly different meaning to calling someone gay today wouldn't you say?
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
It's the Jeeeeewwwssss!!!!
Mate just showed me an article in teh Interantional Herald Tribune. Mate got a Cuban girlfriend who is happy that Castro is dead. All the Cubans are happy I think.
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