The Validity of Israel?

[frogwoman]

as for israel being valid, of course israel has a right to exist, and israeli people have a right to exist, it's just what form should israel's existence take? should it be in a form where israel's jewish majority forms the demographic majority and force etc is used to maintain this? or should it be a binational state?

i think a lot of people don't realise that anti-zionism doesn't mean wanting to destroy israel, but make the system it is based on more "palatable" - you can't have a country in the modern world behaving the way israel does towards a group of people. it is the way things are heading anyway IMO and israel will have to accept that if it doesn't want to be in a state of perpetual war it ought to start treating people decently

i don't think rach should have been banned either, these views need to be heard, and expressed in order that people can argue against it

 

[frogwoman]

and i do think that zionism, the ideology on which the state of israel was founded, is a very racist and expansionist ideology with some very very creepy ideas and a fuck of a lot to answer for

in my opinion israel should never have been created in its current form, yes, there was a need for the jews to go somewhere post-1945 but most holocaust survivors did not agree with israel's crimes and most of the people like ben gurion etc weren't even affected by the nazis' actions, zionist terrorism and dispossession of palestinians had begun, in a sporadic form, well before the holocaust and even before the 1930s

using the holocaust and anti-semitism isn't an excuse for what has been done in the name of zionism, in some cases before the holocaust even began or was known about

the way to deal with anti-semitism isn't to send all the jews somewhere displacing another population off its land, and hope for the best.

maybe i should put that another way

a binational state wouldn't mean all israelis being killed or driven in the sea, it would mean israelis and palestinians having equal rights and some form of reconciliation

what is happening to palestinians at the moment is a crime against humanity and a few shitty homemade rockets doesn't change this

 

[Dhimmi]

He was banned for his viewpoints

Oh fuck. I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about him cos I was just bouncing ideas about and don't want to cause a row

Well that's considerate of you, but I don't think it'll happen. A good thread is a good thread, although the one sidedness of it can be a bit of a drag. Of course we still have the very wonderful froggers. Hurrah for froggers!

 

[frogwoman]

so it's not "israel" that needs to be destroyed - it's zionism, and the fact that people believe that zionism is necessary to maintain the state of israel. i mean why is it necessary to have a state where jews are the majority and have most of the rights, why is it necessary to displace palestinians off their land to build settlements, or advocate that palestinians be "transferred" into Jordan and other countries? and this has been going on long before 1967, since the state of Israel was founded in fact.

why is it necessary to move settlers into places like hebron and put the palestinians under random curfews to let the settlers celebrate their holidays (and half the time those "holidays" involve commemorating the grave of Baruch Goldstein) this is the reality, of israel today, and it is clear to most people that israel needs to change if it is going to be acceptable to the outside world for much longer...

 

[frogwoman]

Well that's considerate of you, but I don't think it'll happen. A good thread is a good thread, although the one sidedness of it can be a bit of a drag. Of course we still have the very wonderful froggers. Hurrah for froggers!

cheers

 

[Dhimmi]

Well find as I see, and I know labelling folk is far from attractive, but there's a certain beauty to having a progressive Jewish princess expressing herself regardless, dispels stereotypes as well as just dishing up a decent Judiac perspective, bit like south african whites against apartheid, but I'll end my dymo labelling at this point...

 

[frogwoman]

thanks

learning about things like the nakba, etc, came as SUCH a shock to me because i think before feburary 2008 (when there was that big air strike on gaza) i had always been fairly pro-israel, if a bit critical of it

i actually started crying about some of the stuff i found out because i had always made certain assumptions about israel and zionism as a jew and i knew there was bad stuff but i either ignored it, or tried to justify it in my mind ... a lot of peope, i think, are like that ... but that is how bad things happen, because good people don't want to do anything about it

i always used to think that zionism was just like a liberation/independence movement for jews, but it's not and that was also a huge shock, because for me it basically said that the whole Idea of Israel had been wrong from the beginning and that really upset me for some reason.

when you look at who some of the early zionists were, and what their intentions were, and the kind of things they spoke about ... the idea of "transfer" was spoken about from the beginning, very very openly. part of the reason why zionists were able to gain sympathy for their cause was because they were seen as assimilated jews, having little knowledge of jewish traditions, and also because zionism appeared at the heyday of European Colonialism at a time when Britain was beginning to have problems with its empire, and that was another reason why zionism was supported.

and that upset me so much to read about it because i'd always just assumed that zionists wanted to get away from anti-semitism, that was part of why people became zionists, but it was acutally a lot more sinister than that.

i will say how much of a shock it was learning about some of the stuff, because to have a favourable opinion of a country, and to feel some sort of affinity with it, it was so horrible to find out that a large number of my assumptions about the nature of the israeli state were such crap ... and it actually ended up with me questioning my own religion to a large extent, because unfortunately i can see how aspects of judaism could concievably seen as lending credibility to zionism (and obviously are, by some)

 

[frogwoman]

be interesting to have a poll, over whether the "zionist entity" has the right to exist as a jewish state, I think ...

 

[Dhimmi]

See this is just the kind of thing I'm talking about - heartfelt consideration from someone with a semi-vested interest. As you might recall I have some Lebanese roots, but that hasn't stopped some from taking my relative neutrality as false, as well as my earnest desire for peace, however simplistic that might be.

I still believe that we might use our distance and our perspective to concentrate upon a righteous peace. You, like me, have an opportunity to simply take sides, and, unlike many here, to take those sides to the ultimate degree. We could both take arms and find ourselves firing at each other, although I have no interest in killing the Jew in you just as you have no interest in killing the Arab in me. That's progressive.

The part I find worrying, and this is beyond the righteous indignation which many express, is just how many who are effectively totally removed from this spite would dearly like us to continue such killing, and not because they necessarily believe in you over me nor me over you but simply to exploit the situation for their own political gain.

 

[frogwoman]

See this is just the kind of thing I'm talking about - heartfelt consideration from someone with a semi-vested interest. As you might recall I have some Lebanese roots, but that hasn't stopped some from taking my relative neutrality as false, as well as my earnest desire for peace, however simplistic that might be.

I still believe that we might use our distance and our perspective to concentrate upon a righteous peace. You, like me, have an opportunity to simply take sides, and, unlike many here, to take those sides to the ultimate degree. We could both take arms and find ourselves firing at each other, although I have no interest in killing the Jew in you just as you have no interest in killing the Arab in me. That's progressive.

The part I find worrying, and this is beyond the righteous indignation which many express, is just how many who are effectively totally removed from this spite would dearly like us to continue such killing, and not because they necessarily believe in you over me nor me over you but simply to exploit the situation for their own political gain.

Exactly. I think a lot of israeli politicians are like that to be honest, they know what needs to be done, but they get drawn in by greed and power, and the desire to hang onto people's votes, so they do things like approve more settelment building, air strikes on gaza and the like, and then when they leave office (as olmert is doing now tbh) they go on about how israel needs to stop what they themselves approved, because they know that if they told the truth while they were the leader of the country, or had a high position, they would never get into power and would probably even be shot

 

[Detroit City]

Exactly. I think a lot of israeli politicians are like that to be honest, they know what needs to be done, but they get drawn in by greed and power, and the desire to hang onto people's votes, so they do things like (fill in the blank)....

no, all politicians are like that regardless of where they practice.

 

[frogwoman]

no, all politicians are like that regardless of where they practice.

well, of course lol but in israel the consequences are a bit more severe, and its also more obvious when they're doing it

 

[Dhimmi]

This is true, and the ultimately suffering victims of this are the Pali's. Of course it's fashionable to say they're the victims of Israel, but they're equally the victims of the Arab states which take them in as refugees, but not as citizens. Of course collectively we're all the victims of the west, especially when there's so many westerners continuing with this drive them, the enemy, into the sea. The hypocrasy of this should be self evident, personally looking like I do I've had grief for being a jew as well as a arab, as well as a few other things depending on who those idiots hate- England losing at footy to any vaguely Italian/Spanish/Latin side is a good fun one.

I think the bottom line to my waffling is this- if the west wants the middle east to stop all it's nonsense, the first step is for the west to stop theirs.

 

[frogwoman]

the palestinians are the victims of israel primarily, but the israelis are also the victims of their own government and its policies and the manner that israel was founde that has basically tainted everything ever since

i read a very sad article by seth freedman the other day about sderot and reading between the lines, that it appears the israeli gov't is almost "using" these people (who aren't settlers btw) living in such a place in order to further its aims ...

 

[frogwoman]

i think the jewish "establishment" - the board of deputies, the heads of the main synagogues in britain, the community security trust, etc, has a FUCK of a lot to answer for in propagating extremist attitudes to israel - and sometimes, non-jews in general - and making out like they're acceptable

it would make me so happy if one day the chief rabbi would condemn israel's actions, in the way that muslim leaders condemned terrorism, and did it publically, with the biggest amount of people watching as possible

 

[Detroit City]

it would make me so happy if one day the chief rabbi would condemn israel's actions, ...

um, i'm not going to hold my breath

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

it would make me so happy if one day the chief rabbi would condemn israel's actions, in the way that muslim leaders condemned terrorism,

Huh: where is the fatwa against bin Laden?

 

[Lancman]

After the Yalta Conference in 1945 President Roosevelt had a meeting with King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia during which he explained the West’s plans for Europe following the defeat of Nazi Germany. In particular he spoke of the necessity of creating a homeland for the Jewish People after their centuries of wandering and especially after the atrocities committed against them during the Second World War. The King’s solution was simple “Give them the best lands of their chief oppressors”. What a wise answer that was, removing at a stroke the religious excuse for expansion.

 

[Detroit City]

Huh: where is the fatwa against bin Laden?

i don't think there is one cause people are scared of him...if he could pull of 9/11 then he can pull of anyting

 

[isitme]

Huh: where is the fatwa against bin Laden?

Fatwa is extremist as well

Plenty of moderates have condemmed bin Laden and his actions

 

[Jessiedog]

After the Yalta Conference in 1945 President Roosevelt had a meeting with King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia during which he explained the West’s plans for Europe following the defeat of Nazi Germany. In particular he spoke of the necessity of creating a homeland for the Jewish People after their centuries of wandering and especially after the atrocities committed against them during the Second World War. The King’s solution was simple “Give them the best lands of their chief oppressors”. What a wise answer that was, removing at a stroke the religious excuse for expansion.

I agree.


Israel should have been carved out of Germany.




Woof

 

[Fedayn]

Why: as punishment for all those mean words he wrote on an internet bulletin board?

No, for being a self admitted fascist with a rather putrid line in anti-arab racism.

 

[butchersapron]

Huh: where is the fatwa against bin Laden?

There's been many - you clearly don't know what fatwa means or how Islam operates:

Spanish Muslims decry Al Qaeda

Amid the anniversary events of the March 11 terrorist bombings, it was no great surprise that Al Qaeda representatives condemned last week's Democracy, Terrorism, and Security Summit here. What did grab attention was an unprecedented fatwa that Spain's own Islamic Commission issued Friday against Osama bin Laden and his followers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

thanks

learning about things like the nakba, etc, came as SUCH a shock to me because i think before feburary 2008 (when there was that big air strike on gaza) i had always been fairly pro-israel, if a bit critical of it

i actually started crying about some of the stuff i found out because i had always made certain assumptions about israel and zionism as a jew and i knew there was bad stuff but i either ignored it, or tried to justify it in my mind ... a lot of peope, i think, are like that ... but that is how bad things happen, because good people don't want to do anything about it

i always used to think that zionism was just like a liberation/independence movement for jews, but it's not and that was also a huge shock, because for me it basically said that the whole Idea of Israel had been wrong from the beginning and that really upset me for some reason.

when you look at who some of the early zionists were, and what their intentions were, and the kind of things they spoke about ... the idea of "transfer" was spoken about from the beginning, very very openly. part of the reason why zionists were able to gain sympathy for their cause was because they were seen as assimilated jews, having little knowledge of jewish traditions, and also because zionism appeared at the heyday of European Colonialism at a time when Britain was beginning to have problems with its empire, and that was another reason why zionism was supported.

and that upset me so much to read about it because i'd always just assumed that zionists wanted to get away from anti-semitism, that was part of why people became zionists, but it was acutally a lot more sinister than that.

i will say how much of a shock it was learning about some of the stuff, because to have a favourable opinion of a country, and to feel some sort of affinity with it, it was so horrible to find out that a large number of my assumptions about the nature of the israeli state were such crap ... and it actually ended up with me questioning my own religion to a large extent, because unfortunately i can see how aspects of judaism could concievably seen as lending credibility to zionism (and obviously are, by some)

Of course, with early Zionism there was often a current of socialist inclusivism that counterbalanced the ideas that became nationalist exclusivism. Unfortunately the idea of a politically inclusivist, non-nationalistic Zionism has been progressively eroded until it's almost inconceivable. ZioNationalism is currently the only form of Zionism that can be expressed in political discourse around the state of Israel, and the state of Israel is much poorer for it IMHO.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is true, and the ultimately suffering victims of this are the Pali's. Of course it's fashionable to say they're the victims of Israel, but they're equally the victims of the Arab states which take them in as refugees, but not as citizens. Of course collectively we're all the victims of the west, especially when there's so many westerners continuing with this drive them, the enemy, into the sea. The hypocrasy of this should be self evident, personally looking like I do I've had grief for being a jew as well as a arab, as well as a few other things depending on who those idiots hate- England losing at footy to any vaguely Italian/Spanish/Latin side is a good fun one.

I think the bottom line to my waffling is this- if the west wants the middle east to stop all it's nonsense, the first step is for the west to stop theirs.

The issue of giving Palestinian nationals citizenship in other Arab countries is IMHO fraught, for many reasons.
Politically, many of the Arab nations feel they cannot do this because of the message it sends to Israel which is, in effect, "it's fine to dispossess these people of their land, their culture, their heritage. After all, we're all Arabs, and have a homogeneous culture, don't we?".
There's also the fairly obvious issue that a refugee population is easier for the "host state" to police (in terms of intelligence-gathering, monitoring etc) than an absorbed population.
We also have to accept the possibility that in many "Arab" states the Palestinians, as a somewhat more politically "modern" nation, might be unwelcome for the influences they could have on the "native" populations of those states.

 

[frogwoman]

Huh: where is the fatwa against bin Laden?

are you kidding me? every time there is any sort of terrorist attack muslim leaders immediately condemn it. when 7/7 happened here the leaders of mosques wrote letters to my local paper as well as all the national papers, there were countless statments issued saying we condemn this atrocity, etc.

as for fatwas, do you know what one is? islam has no central authority qualified to issue fatwas, but there have even been wahhabist clerics in saudi arabia saying they condemn suicide bombings!

 

[frogwoman]

Of course, with early Zionism there was often a current of socialist inclusivism that counterbalanced the ideas that became nationalist exclusivism. Unfortunately the idea of a politically inclusivist, non-nationalistic Zionism has been progressively eroded until it's almost inconceivable. ZioNationalism is currently the only form of Zionism that can be expressed in political discourse around the state of Israel, and the state of Israel is much poorer for it IMHO.

yeah, some early zionists did definitely have those ideals. i remember reading someone saying that they always regarded themselves as "zionist" but their version of zionism would today be called anti-zionism

 

[isitme]

Well that's considerate of you, but I don't think it'll happen. A good thread is a good thread, although the one sidedness of it can be a bit of a drag. Of course we still have the very wonderful froggers. Hurrah for froggers!

this

 

[isitme]

I remember an Israeli friend telling me that because of how the government worked, whenever the socialists tried to do anything progressive the conservtives and nationalists sabotaged it, so everything progressive actually happening in israeli policy depended on having a conservative government and them being forced into progressive measures, usually as a reaction to something terrible happening

is this true?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I remember an Israeli friend telling me that because of how the government worked, whenever the socialists tried to do anything progressive the conservtives and nationalists sabotaged it, so everything progressive actually happening in israeli policy depended on having a conservative government and them being forced into progressive measures, usually as a reaction to something terrible happening

is this true?

For the most part.
Given Israel's electoral system, and the fact that governments are almost always unstable coalitions, it's frighteningly easy for progressive policy to be kicked in the bollocks by one minor party or another withdrawing support from the ruling coalition and causing a collapse, triggering a new general election.