The US secret war

[nino_savatte]

Nino is talking about Dr Frank Olson (that's an "o", not an "e" in the last bit).

Be warned, Jezza.

You're going to have to separate the wheat from the chaff on Ultra as every conspiranoid and his aunt has a theory about the whole sorry mess.

That's the one!!!! There is a lot of conspiranoid stuff out there too. I did read something fairly credible awhile back that involved Paul Robeson Jr and Frank Olson's son, who were both trying to get to the bottom of their fathers' mysterious deaths.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's the one!!!! There is a lot of conspiranoid stuff out there too. I did read something fairly credible awhile back that involved Paul Robeson Jr and Frank Olson's son, who were both trying to get to the bottom of their fathers' mysterious deaths.

Theres a website called The Frank Olson Project put up and run by some of his surviving family that might be worth a look. It includes the Robeson stuff.

Channel 4 (I think) did a rather good doco on Olson's case too.

 

[Kaka Tim]

They are flying prisoners around to get information to prevent attacks similar to those in London, Madrid or New York. American laws are very stringent on bringing foreign prisoners to the US. Taking them to Guantonimo is time consuming and expensive. So they need a place to interrogate these boys. If Eastern European countries provide the space than more power to them.

Again, "torture" camp and "gulags" are one thing, interrogation camps quite another. You make it sound as if thousands of people are being tortured around the world at the hands of the CIA. Ther is no evidence of such a scenario. Its just a play on words.

I dont understand - the act of flying the prisoners makes them more likely to co-operate? Are they that bowled over by the delights of CIA airlines?

And please tell me why its better for the prisoners (who are being held in secret, with no contact with lawyers, family or the the red cross) to be interrogated in secret lcoations in countries with appalling human rights records? I cant quite see the reason.

Its cheaper? oh please.

Less time consuming? Hows that then? Please explain how these secret camps might provide information faster? Some procdure that makes the prisoners talk sooner? what could that be then?

(if you dont answer we'll hood you, make you stand with your hands behind your head in a cold room for about 8 hours .. just for starters. then we might fly you to some unknown camp and introduce you to our good friend Alexi, a specialist in interrogation ..)

And torture is extremely well documented at Guantanomo, Abu Grahib, Bagram air base - ex-inmates and video and photographic evidence all tell the same story.

 

[Streathamite]

Be warned, Jezza.

You're going to have to separate the wheat from the chaff on Ultra as every conspiranoid and his aunt has a theory about the whole sorry mess.

a quick wiki gave ample warning as to why his death is conspiraloon central

 

[nino_savatte]

Theres a website called The Frank Olson Project put up and run by some of his surviving family that might be worth a look. It includes the Robeson stuff.

Channel 4 (I think) did a rather good doco on Olson's case too.

That's the only credible site, the others are extensions of the Rense/Jones conspiraloon sites.

I missed that doco.

 

[Idris2002]

The man who actually developed the programme had second thoughts about it all. He was later found dead on the pavement, after allegedly leaping to his death. It is reckoned that he too had been poisoned. I can't remember his name off the top of my head but I'll try and find it.

There's a lot on this guy in Jon Ronson's _The Men Who Stare at Goats_.

The son of the guy is a friend of the establishment liberal imperialist Michael Ignatieff. I mind a thing MI wrote in the Grauniad a few years back indicating he took the whole thing seriously.

Didn't seem to dent his love for America, or 'Murder Inc.' as it's better known.

 

[mears]

I dont understand - the act of flying the prisoners makes them more likely to co-operate? Are they that bowled over by the delights of CIA airlines?

And please tell me why its better for the prisoners (who are being held in secret, with no contact with lawyers, family or the the red cross) to be interrogated in secret lcoations in countries with appalling human rights records? I cant quite see the reason.

Its cheaper? oh please.

Less time consuming? Hows that then? Please explain how these secret camps might provide information faster? Some procdure that makes the prisoners talk sooner? what could that be then?

(if you dont answer we'll hood you, make you stand with your hands behind your head in a cold room for about 8 hours .. just for starters. then we might fly you to some unknown camp and introduce you to our good friend Alexi, a specialist in interrogation ..)

And torture is extremely well documented at Guantanomo, Abu Grahib, Bagram air base - ex-inmates and video and photographic evidence all tell the same story.

Again, I don't support any physical torture.

If a guy is picked up in Pakistan it might be politically expedient to get him out of Pakistan, to lets say, Poland. His comrades don't know where he is or where he went. Interrogations can hopefully begin in secret. The prisinor is hooded and put on a plane to a location not divulged. Interrogaters can use this to their favor. Take their time and try to pry information out of this guy.

I don't have any problem with it as long as physical torture is not implemented.

 

[snadge]

Again, I don't support any physical torture.

If a guy is picked up in Pakistan it might be politically expedient to get him out of Pakistan, to lets say, Poland. His comrades don't know where he is or where he went. Interrogations can hopefully begin in secret. The prisinor is hooded and put on a plane to a location not divulged. Interrogaters can use this to their favor. Take their time and try to pry information out of this guy.

I don't have any problem with it as long as physical torture is not implemented.

trouble is you know and I know it is, the press is starting to jump on it as I write this.

You are an apologist for torture


bullshit all the time

 

[mears]

trouble is you know and I know it is, the press is starting to jump on it as I write this.

You are an apologist for torture


bullshit all the time

Uh, no I don't support Physical torture of prisoners, for moral and logical reasons. The logical being someone under torture will tell you whatever it is they think you want to hear.

 

[Yossarian]

Torture ban approved in the US.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1668768,00.html

Welcome back from the Middle Ages, guys!

 

[laptop]

Welcome back from the Middle Ages, guys!

It'd be nice to think so.

But some of them still have a way to go, yet.

And the Bill includes what my suspicious mind sees as an end-run around the Nuremberg Doctrine:

Under the agreed draft, US personnel accused of violations could argue that a "reasonable" person might have concluded they were following a lawful order.

 

[fela fan]

I expect mears to change the subject or to chuck out his oft used phrase.

Self-denial works very nicely all the time. It's the perfect answer for all occasions.

 

[fela fan]

yes please do try nino. i've clearly got a bit of reading to do on this. I'm stunned

Sorry mate, but i can't see how you can be stunned by anything america do. Their track record when it comes to fucking up human beings is mightily impressive. They are streets ahead of everyone else.

It is obvious that they use torture, both physical and mental (presumably the latter is acceptable to mears). Anyone who kills in such huge numbers would surely find torture just as much fun. In any case, not only do they practise it, they also teach others how to do it.

They also love capital punishment, the most barbaric crime of the lot. I mean, it's premeditated murder.

The country as a whole is absolutely fucking obsessed with guns, weapons, killing, wars, and WINNING. Just check out hollywood, and check out their foreign policy.

A more violence-loving country i know not.

 

[fela fan]

Torture ban approved in the US.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1668768,00.html

Welcome back from the Middle Ages, guys!

Heh, since when did a pesky law stop uncle sam from doing something they like doing? They'll just have to be a bit less blatant about it all.

Only a bit mind, coz their press refuse to investigate the claims that rumsfeld directly authorised the use of torture in iraq, and the fact that cheney went to so much trouble to have torture legal.

 

[fela fan]

Uh, no I don't support Physical torture of prisoners, for moral and logical reasons. The logical being someone under torture will tell you whatever it is they think you want to hear.

So mental torture is okay then?

 

[nino_savatte]

Again, I don't support any physical torture.

If a guy is picked up in Pakistan it might be politically expedient to get him out of Pakistan, to lets say, Poland. His comrades don't know where he is or where he went. Interrogations can hopefully begin in secret. The prisinor is hooded and put on a plane to a location not divulged. Interrogaters can use this to their favor. Take their time and try to pry information out of this guy.

I don't have any problem with it as long as physical torture is not implemented.

Somehow I don't believe you. In an earlier post you claim not to have any problems with it as long as - and I paraphrase - it "prevents terror acts".

In fact here's the quote:

They are flying prisoners around to get information to prevent attacks similar to those in London, Madrid or New York. American laws are very stringent on bringing foreign prisoners to the US. Taking them to Guantonimo is time consuming and expensive. So they need a place to interrogate these boys. If Eastern European countries provide the space than more power to them.

The word "interrogation" has now assumed a new [euphemistic] meaning. Interrogation in this instance includes such things as sleep deprivation, making prisoners stand for hours, even days on end and taking a razor to someone's penis.

All you can do is bitterly complain about the cost of detaining people at Guantanamo. You really are quite a nasty wee shite.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So mental torture is okay then?

I think that mears is perhaps being disingenuous, given that anyone who has done much reading about interrogation techniques (or even the shit that newspapers publish) will know that psychological/"mental" torture is more likely to garner results than wiring someones' bollocks to a light fixture while they're standing in a puddle.

That way he can come off appearing to condemn (crude and usually unsuccessful) physical torture while still condoning the spooks using sensory deprivation and other psych techniques.

Then again, perhaps he isn't that clever.

 

[snadge]

Uh, no I don't support Physical torture of prisoners, for moral and logical reasons. The logical being someone under torture will tell you whatever it is they think you want to hear.

backpeddling already I see, that wasn't what you where saying earlier.



bullshit all the time

 

[mears]

So mental torture is okay then?

Not telling a suspect where he is. Playing good cop bad cop. Feeding him misleading information. I think these are all good tactics for instance.

The CIA must be doing something right. We have not had a terrorist attack in the states since 9-11.

 

[mears]

backpeddling already I see, that wasn't what you where saying earlier.



bullshit all the time

I don't see any contraditions in my writing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Not telling a suspect where he is. Playing good cop bad cop. Feeding him misleading information. I think these are all good tactics for instance.

The CIA must be doing something right. We have not had a terrorist attack in the states since 9-11.

That doesn't mean that TORTURE techniques are working and only one who thinks in a "by numbers" style would argue that it works.

Such interrogation techniques never stopped the Madrid or London bombings...but if it's happening on the shores of another country, you don't really give a shit - do you?

 

[nino_savatte]

I can't wait for mears' next post. It should be a real ribtickler!

 

[Streathamite]

Not telling a suspect where he is. Playing good cop bad cop. Feeding him misleading information. I think these are all good tactics for instance.

The CIA must be doing something right. We have not had a terrorist attack in the states since 9-11.

for heaven's sake! That is NOT mental i.e. psychological torture. That is mere deviousness. you damn well know what psychological torture is. stop playing games.
ETA; but al-qaeda have gone on to commit other atrocities, and the single biggest reason why no more attacks is that youve beefed up anti-terror internal and border security.
And you HAVE seen 2000 american soldiers killed in a war that doesn't seem to have actually brought you any obvious dividends.
would that have happened without 9/11? doubt it.

 

[Kaka Tim]

So Mears,

you're ok with sensory deprivation (hooding) and with not being told where you are or where you are going

what about these other torture ..sorry 'robust intterorgation' techniques

- being made to stand motionless for hours on end (often in the cold),
- being threatened (like with dogs) but not actually harmed.
- being sexually humiliated (i.e having female staff take pictures of you and laugh at your dick)
- being held indefinitely without charge
- not being told the evidence against you
- not having access to a legal advice
- your freinds and family not being told where you are or what you are being charged with
- being held in secret without any public knowledge of you wherabouts (i.e 'disapperared').

(edited to add these delights at Violent Pandas suggesiton)

- being awakened every time you fall asleep.
- being deprived of toilet facilities and forced to foul yourself
- being deprived of sustenance
- having pharmaceuticals or salt added to your food/water.

Which of these practices is acceptable in your book?

you see these are all well documented stress and duress techniques used by the torturers ... sorry 'security personal' accross the globe (including the brits in norterhn ireland in the 70s and 80s). The CIA have written handbooks on it. Taken as a whole they amount to a co-ordinated asault on the pyschology of the victim. We knwo for a fact that all of these techniques (and similar) are being carried out in various US bases in cuba, iraq and afghanstan. Many of the thousands of people who have endured it have been subsequnetly released without any charge having been scooped up on the thinest of evidence (likie heresay evidence of neighbours, on the evidence of other victims of tort .. sorry 'security interviewees', or out of spite by iraqi, afghan or US security forces).

Basically anyone but a cunt would describe the above as torture, plain and simple, jsut cos taken individually they could not seem as bad as electrocuting someone's testicles, taken together they are still seriously damaging to health and mental well being (i.e peope have died from hypothermia at Bagram Airbase).

Now on top of all this we have the 'secret camps' - clearly used for when something more then 'stress and duress' is required.

I almost wish you and your fellow hypocrites had to endure a stay in one of your proud gulags but, unlike you it would seem, I have a shred of humanity that keeps geting in the way.

 

[nino_savatte]

What I'd like to know is where they got this word "rendition" from. I always thought a rendition was a rendering of a particular song, piece or whatever.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So Mears,

you're ok with sensory deprivation (hooding) and with not being told where you are or where you are going

what about these other tortur ..sorry 'robust intterorgation' techniques

- being made to stand motionless for hours on end (often in the cold),
- being threatened (like with dogs) but not actually harmed.
- being sexually humiliated (i.e having female staff take pictures of you and laugh at your dick)
- being held indefinitely without charge
- not being told the evidence against you
- not having access to a legal advice
- your freinds and family not being told where you are or what you are being charged with
- being held in secret without any public knowledge of you wherabouts (i.e 'disapperared').


Which of these practices is acceptable in your book?

To which you could have added:

- being awakened every time you fall asleep.
- being deprived of toilet facilities and forced to foul yourself
- being deprived of sustenance
- having pharmaceuticals or salt added to your food/water.

and many many more.

you see these are all well documented stress and duress techniques used by the torture ... sorry 'security personal' accross the globe (including the brits in norterhn ireland in the 70s and 80s).

Any squaddie likely to be posted to N.I. (or other "hot" areas) was given "anti-interrogation"/interrogation-resistance training, where you actually het subjected to some small doses of the above to give you some idea of what you might face if you let yourself get captured.

The CIA have written handbooks on it. Taken as a whole they amount to a co-ordinated asault on the pyschology of the victim.

Yep, they learned loads from their "assistance" to regimes such as those led by Suharto and Pinochet.

We knwo for a fact that all of these techniques (and similar) are being carried out in various US bases in cuba, iraq and afghanstan. Many of the thousands of people who have endured it have been subsequnetly released without any charge having been scooped up on the thinest of evidence (likie heresay evidence of neighbours, on the evidence of other victims of tort .. sorry 'security interviewees', or out of spite by iraqi, afghan or US security forces).

Basically anyone but a cunt would describe the above as torture, plain and simple, jsut cos taken individually they could not seem as bad as electrocuting someone's testicles, taken together they are still seriously damaging to health and mental well being (i.e peope have died from hypothermia at Bagram Airbase).

Now on top of all this we have the 'secret camps' - clearly used for when something more then 'stress and duress' is required.

I almost wish you and your fellow hypocrites had to endure a stay in one of your proud gulags, but, unlike you it would seem, I have a shred of humanity that keeps geting in the way.

I'm sure he and his fellow hypocrites all firmly believe "it'll never happen to me", a sentence which has served as "famous last words" in many regimes through history.

 

[laptop]

What I'd like to know is where they got this word "rendition" from.

Didn't you get the CIA tender documents for GEEK, the Generator of Egregious Euphemisms Kit? I hear the winning team got $250k...

 

[ViolentPanda]

What I'd like to know is where they got this word "rendition" from. I always thought a rendition was a rendering of a particular song, piece or whatever.

Something to do with "rendering unto the merciless motherfuckers what ever they fucking well want" perhaps?

After all, "extraordinary rendition" wouldn't be happening if the cowardly supine politicians of the countries which participate didn't allow it to. They could refuse, imprison the person and subject him to the rule of that nation's law.

As it is any state apparatus that allows this to happen on their soil is complicit in the propagation of torture, and are likely subjecting their population to reprisals in the name of appeasing the US's need to be seen by its' citizens to be "doing something".

 

[nino_savatte]

Didn't you get the CIA tender documents for GEEK, the Generator of Egregious Euphemisms Kit? I hear the winning team got $250k...

 

[nino_savatte]

Something to do with "rendering unto the merciless motherfuckers what ever they fucking well want" perhaps?

After all, "extraordinary rendition" wouldn't be happening if the cowardly supine politicians of the countries which participate didn't allow it to. They could refuse, imprison the person and subject him to the rule of that nation's law.

As it is any state apparatus that allows this to happen on their soil is complicit in the propagation of torture, and are likely subjecting their population to reprisals in the name of appeasing the US's need to be seen by its' citizens to be "doing something".

Indeed, this "extraordinary rendition" is a means of circumventing (though not altogether successfully) international law - "it's too much trouble to apply for an extradition warrant", is the excuse that I've heard being used as a defence. But you are right about those countries who allow this sort of thing to take place on their soil: they are equally as complicit as the US.