The "underclass" - does it exist? If it does, what is it?

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It was and is a way of dividing the working class. The deserving and undeserving poor.

The working class sell their labour.

What of people who generally do not sell their labour? How can they really be called "working class"?

There were no welfare benefits in the days of Marx.

I would personally rather there were benefits than none, but Citizens Income seems a much better way of doing things than paying people specifically not to work.

 

[Citizen66]

I'm harbouring the illusion that 'chav' is the catch-all jargon for the posh proles to sneer at the not so fortunate.

Funny how it all works out really.

 

[butchersapron]

The working class sell their labour.

What of people who generally do not sell their labour? How can they really be called "working class"?

There were no welfare benefits in the days of Marx.

I would personally rather there were benefits than none, but Citizens Income seems a much better way of doing things than paying people specifically not to work.

That's your definition of working class is it? Those who work? So Alan Sugar? David Cameron? Not some 100 000 miners now signing on?

People who aren't working, for Marx, are the reserve army of labour and so part of the w/c. Read marx before spouting off. Yes there were also benefits.

Your politics behind this help-the-nazis-are-coming agenda scares me.

 

[butchersapron]

I would personally rather there were benefits than none, but Citizens Income seems a much better way of doing things than paying people specifically not to work.

That's nice of you dear. A citizens income provided, funded, administered and monitiored by the state and businesses who are the nazis who are doing all the nasty things what have sent you mental.

 

[isitme]

That's your definition of working class is it? Those who work? So Alan Sugar? David Cameron? Not some 100 000 miners now signing on?

.

miners?

 

[Citizen66]

Are minors old enough to sign on?

Besides my lame joke, I don't believe that Alan Sugar or Cameron fall into the bracket of selling their labour. They may 'work' ... but they primarily exploit others.

 

[treelover]

yes, 'miners', they have the skills, etc, just not the pits for now, its incredible much of the lefts and liberals attitude to the unemployed, etc.

 

[isitme]

maybe I'm being ignorant but who are these 100'000 miners?

is this something that hasn't been on the news?

 

[butchersapron]

ex-miners. The bit saying 'now signing on' was a clue.

 

[treelover]

I think BA, means 'ex' miners; but see above

 

[Citizen66]

maybe I'm being ignorant but who are these 100'000 miners?

is this something that hasn't been on the news?

It was on the news in the 80s a bit IIRC...

 

[isitme]

shouldn't we be talking about the future?

is it any wonder that people don't listen if you go on about miners

I mean, I agree that we should be supporting the miners, but we can't forget about current issues like the falklands war or reagan's star wars program

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I see what you did there, you wag.

 

[Citizen66]

Spitting Image isn't as funny as you remember it, either.

 

[butchersapron]

shouldn't we be talking about the future?

is it any wonder that people don't listen if you go on about miners

I mean, I agree that we should be supporting the miners, but we can't forget about current issues like the falklands war or reagan's star wars program

Can someone explain it to him (well done on not doing a minor joke, you've still got some standards). Bit late but...

 

[butchersapron]

For ninjaboy

That's your definition of working class is it? Those who work? So Alan Sugar? David Cameron? Not some 100 000 miners now signing on?

See if you can pick the point out of that. Again, ask a functioning adult if you need help.

 

[isitme]

but why bring miners into it?

I understand the point that not all working class people have jobs, that shouldn't even ned saying. but I don't see the relevence of the early 1980s to that statement. excuse my ignorance

 

[butchersapron]

It's nothing to do with the 80s. It's about having a job and then not. One second you're w/c, then when you're sacked you're not - going by taffboys model - and the idicocy of that approach.

(scaked teachers are still teachers btw aren't they, jobs with skills always are - miners?)

 

[Callie]

you are holding on to the miners aspect isn't it, isitme? let it go....

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, the actual job doesn't matter.

 

[Callie]

its the thought that counts

 

[isitme]

but why reference the early 80s when the same thing is happening now?

 

[butchersapron]

but why reference the early 80s when the same thing is happening now?

There was no reference to the early 80s, there was a reference to today, that sems to have annoyed you and your transformers. Get over it.

 

[Callie]

these people are older than you and i and miners strikes a chord. you can substitute the word miners with.....erm... well we don't have that same primary industry - we grew up after all that, things had chnaged but the ethos is still the same. as a w/c person you can train all your life for a skill but then industry changes and a you find yourself superceded or replaced by something cheaper - there no place for you and no-one is willing to invest in retraining.

i dunno.

i got the wrong end of stick

 

[butchersapron]

these people are older than you and i and miners strikes a chord. you can substitute the word miners with.....erm... well we don't have that same primary industry - we grew up after all that, things had chnaged but the ethos is still the same. as a w/c person you can train all your life for a skill but then industry changes and a you find yourself superceded or replaced by something cheaper - there no place for you and no-one is willing to invest in retraining.

i dunno.

i got the wrong end of stick

You didn't, i just had to strip the emotional resonances from it for ninjaboy - as that's far too hard for him to grasp - that something happened in the past that people might care about.

 

[Callie]

i suspect he's just poking you with the right end of the stick.

he ain't stupid.

 

[butchersapron]

He can be. I've seen it before.

 

[isitme]

100'000 unemployed miners?

today?

where?

 

[Callie]

its a beautiful thing.

 

[butchersapron]

Here for example.

You haven't got the point about skills and definition you have if you're sacked ninja - you're still a teacher, employed or not. Are you still a miner? Why not?