The Trap: BBC2 Tonight (Sunday)

[kyser_soze]

Along with Sun Tzu's Art of War I rate The Prince as one of the greatest documents in political philosophy, but it should be read in relation to it's lesser known sibling, The Discourses. The Prince deals with the management of power and focuses on the idea that achieving the goal is primary - Machhi doesn't faff around with whether the goal is a good one or not, but he is admirably honest and candid about the conduct of power politics (after all he was largely writing for/about Cesar Borgia) and his commentary on how for example, in a pious world one should appear pious since it leads to popularity and thence influence and thence power (In this he's much like Confuscious and his comments about how in times of corruption one should bundle up one's principles and get into the trough) - show me a politician today who doesn't behave in this fashion!

But in the Discources, he talks more about the state of anarchic (in it's classical sense, rather than it's post-Kropotkin sense) individualism that existed in the City States in Italy at the time, which I think bears many comparisons with todays world, only the city state is now less clearly defined - it's less about geography and more about state of mind IYSWIM.

After all, the destruction of the miners, involved the destruction of the communities where they lived.

Hmm, the destruction of the mining communities is as much a failure of the unions and those selfsame communities to recognise when a battle is lost and retrenching to save something to rebuild, but that's for another thread - IMV the unions and Scargill fucked those communities over just as much as Thatcher did.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think the rot started long before Thatcher. If it weren't for militant unions, people would never have voted for her in the first place.

Hmmm, so you're going to blame this malaise solely on the unions? I guess management were untouchable and unimpeachable - eh?

Thatcher destroyed communities. I see no evidence of this on the part of the unions.

 

[nino_savatte]

Along with Sun Tzu's Art of War I rate The Prince as one of the greatest documents in political philosophy, but it should be read in relation to it's lesser known sibling, The Discourses. The Prince deals with the management of power and focuses on the idea that achieving the goal is primary - Machhi doesn't faff around with whether the goal is a good one or not, but he is admirably honest and candid about the conduct of power politics (after all he was largely writing for/about Cesar Borgia) and his commentary on how for example, in a pious world one should appear pious since it leads to popularity and thence influence and thence power (In this he's much like Confuscious and his comments about how in times of corruption one should bundle up one's principles and get into the trough) - show me a politician today who doesn't behave in this fashion!

But in the Discources, he talks more about the state of anarchic (in it's classical sense, rather than it's post-Kropotkin sense) individualism that existed in the City States in Italy at the time, which I think bears many comparisons with todays world, only the city state is now less clearly defined - it's less about geography and more about state of mind IYSWIM.



Hmm, the destruction of the mining communities is as much a failure of the unions and those selfsame communities to recognise when a battle is lost and retrenching to save something to rebuild, but that's for another thread - IMV the unions and Scargill fucked those communities over just as much as Thatcher did.

The mining communities are but one example.

 

[kyser_soze]

Another thread one day perhaps - but my point about heroes is well made in the person of Scargill, who's personality cult, exhorting the miners and their families to believe in him as someone who could help stopped many looking around and saying 'Hang on, we're being run off a fucking cliff here'.

Anyhoo, as I said, somehow we need to reconcile the notion of the primacy of the individual with that individuals responsibility to society and those around them - how to do this is anyone's guess tho.

 

[nino_savatte]

Another thread one day perhaps - but my point about heroes is well made in the person of Scargill, who's personality cult, exhorting the miners and their families to believe in him as someone who could help stopped many looking around and saying 'Hang on, we're being run off a fucking cliff here'.

Anyhoo, as I said, somehow we need to reconcile the notion of the primacy of the individual with that individuals responsibility to society and those around them - how to do this is anyone's guess tho.

On the other hand, you have Thatcher who was also seen in a similar light by those who supported her. But she did a great deal to facilitate the selfish individualism that we have today. I wonder if she ever read any Ayn Rand?

 

[kyser_soze]

On the other hand, you have Thatcher who was also seen in a similar light by those who supported her. But she did a great deal to facilitate the selfish individualism that we have today. I wonder if she ever read any Ayn Rand?

Well yeah, exactly - and many Tories still blindly support her and her approach to life since having a 'higher source' for their selfishness gives it a degree of moral approval.

I also realise that I'm mixing threads up...@self

 

[Spion]

Hmmm, so you're going to blame this malaise solely on the unions? I guess management were untouchable and unimpeachable - eh?

Thatcher destroyed communities. I see no evidence of this on the part of the unions.

People like the poster you responded to seem to have no idea about how, shit, lazy, tightfisted and stupid British management were in the 50s/60s/70s

 

[Gavin Bl]

I thought the programme was very interesting, but I think the central hypothesis seemed to be soewhat hazily defined, as it did in the Guardian article.

That said, it was worth watching for remarkable stuff like the Thud experiment, demonstrating how well-meaning organisations can just become arranged around their own power and self-sustenance, even so, it did seem to be a gaggle of interesting anecdotes, rather than something very consistent.

Just on the miners, I take the point, but many areas which had say, steel, as their main industry, were just as screwed, despite weak leadership and little militancy. I think sometimes the tide is too strong for the mighty or the weak.

I get this feeling that societies tend to 'settle' into a collective but stultifying way, or and individualstic but alienated way, but not some sort of happy medium - rather like the way the Brits seem to have leapt from emotional repression to emotional diarrhoea, completely by-passing just being open

Anyway, not sure I agreed with it all, but well worth watching.

 

[nino_savatte]

People like the poster you responded to seem to have no idea about how, shit, lazy, tightfisted and stupid British management were in the 50s/60s/70s

Sure, all of Britain's economic problems were blamed on unions and the workers, never the bosses with their jags and three-hour lunch breaks. I remember that this is how it was in the 70's when I started work.

 

[moonsi til]

I happened upon it by accident...had been struggling with a epic hangover so me and my BF were hugging the sofa, eating pizza and drinking ginger beer....and then quite alert and intrigued when The Trap came on....I liked the edgy montage and fast moving pace....