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The 'transition movement' in Peak Oil

ItWillNeverWork

Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
I was wondering what people's opinion was on attempts to set up so-called 'transition towns' and implement locally-based schemes for when Peak Oil begins to take effect. I don't really want to debate whether or not Peak Oil is a reality (there is another thread for that), so if we are to assume that it is a problem, are the Transition movement bods on the right track?

My initial impression is that it all seems a bit like of a middle class, liberal life-style choice whereby people sit around feeling good about themselves because they are using their weekends to knit Cous Cous or mend bicycles. There may be nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but I fail to see it's relevance to the experience of inner cities, especially that experience that will occur in these areas when Peal Oil begins to be felt.

So what are other people's thoughts? Is anyone here involved in Transition? If so, what is it that you hope to achieve?
 
Broadly I agree. Some good may come of it from the development of useful skills that were otherwise on the wane, and networking with others, but its not a magic fit for the possible future realities.

Oh look someone seems to have slightly doctored this image, seems appropriate.

good+life+2.gif
 
Transition Brighton. Sadly, QED. That was meant to be the shining light of the Transition movement. I've yet to hear about one that has made any considerable progress.

The more practical, less theoretical initiatives seem to have a far higher success rate. Incredible Edible Todmorton and the like.

My opinion, FWIW is that when you remove Permaculture from the equation, you increase dramaticlly the chances of success.
 
How would transition initiatives aimed at inner cities look, do you think? For example, how have local currencies fared in the few urban areas that they have been tried? (i.e. Brixton Pound) Did they die on their arse?
 
Not sure. LETS seems to be trundling along, not really gaining ground but not petering out either. Things like TimeBank claim to be doing OK, but I've seen no evidence (not that I'd be likely to BTW.)

Peer-to-peer lending, on the other hand goes from strength to strength. Zopa et al are (I think) household names now (at least they are in my house.)
 
I was wondering what people's opinion was on attempts to set up so-called 'transition towns' and implement locally-based schemes for when Peak Oil begins to take effect. I don't really want to debate whether or not Peak Oil is a reality (there is another thread for that), so if we are to assume that it is a problem, are the Transition movement bods on the right track?

My initial impression is that it all seems a bit like of a middle class, liberal life-style choice whereby people sit around feeling good about themselves because they are using their weekends to knit Cous Cous or mend bicycles. There may be nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but I fail to see it's relevance to the experience of inner cities, especially that experience that will occur in these areas when Peal Oil begins to be felt.

So what are other people's thoughts? Is anyone here involved in Transition? If so, what is it that you hope to achieve?

Broadly yes.

However there has been a move that has included working class people from what I can see towards people growing their own more, going back to allotments, moving from cars to bike and foot travel, local food coops etc.

It seems to work best when instead of being ideological it is based on economic need - which is hardly surprising.

Or to put it another way, people tend to make changes when they need to in order to further their own self interest, rather than based on obscure or distant theories.

As some of us have been saying on here and elsewhere for the last X amount of years.
 
I went to a local Transition Town meeting recently and yes, the group is full of well-meaning middle-class busy-bodies as far as I could tell.

They've made a start of sorts - cultivating plots of parkland donated by the council, planting fruit trees and campaigning for 20mph speed limits in residential areas.
I said that it would soon be too expensive to drive at all, so the "20's plenty" campaign was (a)not really a concern of the transition movement and (b)a waste of time in any case.
They didn't like that very much.

I gather that after an initial surge, interest in this group is tailing off as people realise how much struggle and very hard work is involved in making a real transition to viable sustainability.

Until we're on the same page about how much shit we're in, I will leave these nice folks to their worthy deeds.
There seems to be little point engaging with people who seem certain to perish at the first hint of die-off.
 
About as relevant as a chocolate teapot in the midst of the greatest global economic crisis since the 1930's.... All together now.. "Kumbaya my Lord............."
 
are the Transition movement bods on the right track?

I'm in it. The very first statement you will hear any bod in the "movement" declare is: "We've no idea if we are on the right track".

Since no-one has ever piloted a hypercomplex industrial global political economy down a rapid energy depletion curve during a time of rapid climate destabilisation before, that is more or less an essential admission to make, and test of sanity. Anyone who claims they are on the right track should be avoided, in my view.

The Transition movement is less of a program, and more of a framework in which people experiment to find what adaptation strategies and practices works, succeed and fail safely at small scale, communicate successes and failures as rapidly as possible to minimise the learning time, and scale what does work (and is appropriate) as rapidly as possible. It has certain views ("themes") about where solutions are most likely to be found (permaculture, local currencies, energy conservation, localism, etc.) to serve as starting places, but it's pretty flexible.
My initial impression is that it all seems a bit like of a middle class, liberal life-style choice

I'm middle class, liberal, and I've made a life style choice. So are many (but by no means all) of the people I know that participate. So I'd have to agree. The question is: are the working class excluded, or do the working class exclude themselves?

This is a self-initiating movement. I've lost count of the leaflets and news letters I've stuck in people's letterboxes telling people what's on and how to get involved and I've stuck them in all sorts of letter boxes. It's not like the Jehova's Witnesses. We'll tell you what is going on and welcome you if you want to share your energy, experience and ideas. But if you don't want to play, then don't. The ayatollah's of this world are fine with us. If he has an alternative view, and it works, then great! We'll incorporate it. We are all Transitionalists, in that respect. But at some point, you actually have to get your arse off the sofa, switch off the telly, and do something. It would be naive to deny that some people are less self-initiating than others.

There is nothing inherently class based about the Transition movement. Hunger, cold, and disease won't discriminate between those with money and those without, when money ceases to have much value. Many of the initiatives in Transition don't require money (and it's remarkable, for example, what else you could do with your Sky subscription, car depreciation, insurance and road tax, and loan interest), and will reduce your expenditure. For what it is worth, it's hard to get toffs involved too. People with access to resources (specifically agricultural land and energy) will have disproportionate power in a resource scarce world and , ironically, one of our themes is re-establishing proper ownership of resources and the means of production - about the most realistic opportunity for modern Marxists to discover a workable form of politics and a vehicle for bringing it about. It would be sad if they missed the chance because they spent the time complaining it was a middle class movement.

whereby people sit around feeling good about themselves because they are using their weekends to knit Cous Cous or mend bicycles. There may be nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but I fail to see it's relevance to the experience of inner cities, especially that experience that will occur in these areas when Peal Oil begins to be felt.

Then the very best thing you can do is find your local group, and join or start the group that identifies and implements what is relevant to the experience of inner cities, and share your experience and energy with it to figure it out (actually, you will find there is already work going on here). If there isn't a local group in your local transition movement - start one. If there isn't a transition movement in your area - start one of those instead. We start where we are, with what we've got and the skills we have.

It's now a global movement (because it appears to work far better than any of the current alternatives), and there are plenty of resources to get you started. You will be very welcome.

Or you can exclude yourself. The choice is yours, but you do have a choice.
 
It seems to be more a case of doing stuff to take your mind off the impending catastrophe than actually doing stuff that's likely to avert it, but given the fact that at this point there's probably nothing that can be done to avert catastrophe I can't see any harm in that. They might accidentally make a few people's lives a bit more pleasant in the process, albeit with that insufferable air about them that only middle class late-adopter hippies can exude.
 
At some point, you actually have to get your arse off the sofa, switch off the telly, go to a meeting, then join a group and do something. It would be naive to deny that some people are less self-initiating than others. For what it is worth, it's hard to get toffs involved too. Meanwhile, hunger, cold, and disease won't discriminate between those with money and those without, when money ceases to have much value. Conversely, many of the initiatives in Transition don't require money, and reduce your expenditure. (it's remarkable, for example, what you could buy with a Sky subscription).

You patronising twat. On the one hand you open your post with, "we have no idea what we're doing" and on the other hand you're berating people for not joining in. Make your mind up.

Not everyone who isn't you has their arse glued to the sofa you know, it's just that some of us are attempting to deal with environmental change by actively tackling the people and ideologies most responsible for it rather than simply feathering our own suburban nests to make sure we survive the apocalypse while the people in the cities are left to slit each other's throats.

Here's some news for you, as soon as the shit hits the fan blokes with guns are gonna roll up and take your organic veg, your biodiesel and your solar panels and leave you all to stamp your feet and moan about how unfair it all is and how you should definitely write a very strongly worded letter to the local paper.
 
There's a lot of middle-class survivalism up in this thread, and like the poster above rightly mentions, should any of the worst possible scenarios actually transpire then

the fan blokes with guns are gonna roll up and take your organic veg, your biodiesel and your solar panels and leave you all to stamp your feet and moan about how unfair it all is and how you should definitely write a very strongly worded letter to the local paper.

I know someone who's fucked off living in London and got herself a small-holding in the scottish borders, where she's convinced that even if society breaks down she'll be able to get by ok living like it's an episode of the Good Life. Hasn't seem to thought that in such a world living in an isolated farmhouse full of provisions is just going to make you a target. Really weird, this survivalist stuff.
 
I know someone who's fucked off living in London and got herself a small-holding in the scottish borders, where she's convinced that even if society breaks down she'll be able to get by ok living like it's an episode of the Good Life. Hasn't seem to thought that in such a world living in an isolated farmhouse full of provisions is just going to make you a target. Really weird, this survivalist stuff.

I know someone who was thinking similar except he was being a bit more thorough about it - last time I saw him he was talking about buying some tiny island off the coast of Argentina. He was going to pay for this from all the money he'd made investing in the sorts of business that would do well out of things getting a lot worse. :hmm:
 
You patronising twat.
On behalf of the Cous Cous knitters and bicycle menders of the world - thanks :).
On the one hand you open your post with, "we have no idea what we're doing" and on the other hand you're berating people for not joining in. Make your mind up.

It's "both/and". Not "either/or". No-one knows how to do this SO join in. Wasn't polarised, black and white, I'm-right-and-you're-wrong thinking exactly the sort of monoculture group think that got us into this mess?
Not everyone who isn't you has their arse glued to the sofa you know, it's just that some of us are attempting to deal with environmental change by actively tackling the people and ideologies most responsible for it
Great. Provided you have a program for actually doing something about it (which I often find hard to detect in the noise of "capitalists/bankers are wankers, hang them all" - can you articulate the change program of the admirable "Occupy" movement in one paragraph, for example?), then we are on the same side. I think you would have to admit that there is a vast group of people who subscribe neither to your opinion of how to address it or mine, or indeed any.
rather than simply feathering our own suburban nests to make sure we survive the apocalypse while the people in the cities are left to slit each other's throats.
You made that up.
Here's some news for you, as soon as the shit hits the fan blokes with guns are gonna roll up and take your organic veg, your biodiesel and your solar panels and leave you all to stamp your feet and moan about how unfair it all is and how you should definitely write a very strongly worded letter to the local paper.
Ironically, I am regularly lambasted on these boards for pointing out the existence of the blokes with guns. But I think what the blokes with the guns are going to roll up to is the power vacuum created if we don't get our shit sorted out and fill it with something constructive. I'm sure you do have constructive ideas. Maybe share those, instead of this synthetic antagonism.
 
I'm middle class, liberal, and I've made a life style choice. So are many (but by no means all) of the people I know that participate. So I'd have to agree. The question is: are the working class excluded, or do the working class exclude themselves?.
This isn't intended particularly as a criticism, or at least it is intended as a constructive criticism, but people can exclude themselves for various reasons. If people from a particular background don't see others from their background in the group, they may not see this as something for them. Even though they may be welcomed, they may feel on an emotional level uncomfortable and as if they don't belong. So the most likely answer to your question is going to be a bit of both. Is there anything more that you can do to extend your group's appeal? Is there anything you do that makes unconscious assumptions about people's lives, access to resources, education levels, etc? I don't mean that you should be patronising people, but it's important to engage people in ways that make sense to them. For instance, if you're shoving leaflets through doors in a council estate, including some information about how tenants can pressure the council to change towards more sustainable practices might be productive. I don't know what the answer might be, but it's probably worth looking at yourself. It's easy to be excluding entirely by accident.
 
but people can exclude themselves for various reasons...It's easy to be excluding entirely by accident.
LBJ, I totally agree. I would make the general point that there is nothing inherently exclusive and much which is explicitly inclusive about the transition movement. That is not to deny the broader and entirely relevant point that lack of access to money, education, certain norms of culture, etc. can present material barriers to entry. As it turns out, the financial barriers are much lower than most people think and the financial returns much higher. But the culture and education barriers are material.
 
I gather that after an initial surge, interest in this group is tailing off as people realise how much struggle and very hard work is involved in making a real transition to viable sustainability.

Once you explain to people the reasons why people in a truly sustainable society probably wouldn't be able to have stuff like TV's, cars, washing machines and cocaine they tend to lose interest in the idea.

My big problem with lifestylists is that most of them can't even be bothered to actually change their lifestyle. They'll cycle the 400 yards to Waitrose for their imported-by-first-class-air-freight asparagus instead of driving and then dust off their hands and declare that their work is done.

This by no means applies to everyone in the transition movement of course, but in my experience it does apply to the ones who do most of the talking.
 
but in my experience it does apply to the ones who do most of the talking.
I agree. (For complete accuracy, I'd transpose 'most' to before 'ones').

There is an awful lot of hot air at Transition meetings. It is in many ways the perfect democratic process - anything goes. It's imperfect, to say the least, and I sometimes envy the Chinese with their government's "just get it fucking done" mentality. I think the question is, "Imperfect relative to what next best option, given the timescale?"
 
Once you explain to people the reasons why people in a truly sustainable society probably wouldn't be able to have stuff like TV's, cars, washing machines and cocaine they tend to lose interest in the idea.

My big problem with lifestylists is that most of them can't even be bothered to actually change their lifestyle. They'll cycle the 400 yards to Waitrose for their imported-by-first-class-air-freight asparagus instead of driving and then dust off their hands and declare that their work is done.

This by no means applies to everyone in the transition movement of course, but in my experience it does apply to the ones who do most of the talking.

I'd say that's pretty common, true. It's how the 'achievments' to be aimed for have come to be seen in terms of 'savings' of CO2 (or whatever else). If you drive a Land Rover and buy a slightly smaller vehicle then well done, you've 'saved' x amount. Much better than someone who just lives fairly frugally but hasn't cut down.


The only logical approach is really to look at what you do do. I know a few people who try and do that seriously but they live a lifestyle that's just miles beyond what most people (including me) would even contemplate committing to.
 
I agree. (For complete accuracy, I'd transpose 'most' to before 'ones').

There is an awful lot of hot air at Transition meetings. It is in many ways the perfect democratic process - anything goes. It's imperfect, to say the least, and I sometimes envy the Chinese with their government's "just get it fucking done" mentality. I think the question is, "Imperfect relative to what next best option, given the timescale?"

Spend much time working with middle class hippies and totalitarianism always starts to seem like a good idea. Totalitarianism or suicide.
 
Spend much time working with middle class hippies and totalitarianism always starts to seem like a good idea. Totalitarianism or suicide.
It is unfortunate that the iconic parody of the process is the debate about the name of The People's Front of Judea in "Life of Brian". Seems a bit harsh to confine talk-as-substitute-for-action as a disease of the middle classes.
 
Blaming the lack of progress on the demographic is pretty dubious IMO. The problem lies in the lack of scope and clear objectives. It's all about the process, and that process is Permaculture. Take that away, and you'll see actual progress.

That's what happened in Todmorden, Detroit's community gardens, those food co-op things in Toronto & Brooklyn, and all over Italy (at least, in my local town there have been successful changes made, and people tell me that's the case all over the country.) The list of successful projects is huge, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is that they put the flipcharts away, and just got on with actually doing stuff.
 
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