The Torture Question

[rogue yam]

Since when is the Free Republic, leftie spew?

Nice try...NOT! The FR link you posted was to a thread discussing an article from the Guardian. Unlike u75, many posters on FR try to actually educate themselves and thus look to a variety of sources. BTW, did you check out the blog post I linked to above?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Nice try...NOT! The FR link you posted was to a thread discussing an article from the Guardian. Unlike u75, many posters on FR try to actually educate themselves and thus look to a variety of sources. BTW, did you check out the blog post I linked to above?

The one about the interrogator? I read the whole thing.

 

[rogue yam]

Well, we can see which direction you'll go in, when you start to lose an argument on the facts.

The fact that you are stupid is perfectly relevant to a discussion of the shortcomings of your posts, Johnny. If you want people to ignore your ignorance and stupidity, do something else.

 

[rogue yam]

The one about the interrogator? I read the whole thing.

Well, it was about the Frontline documentary, but it discussed the interrogator. And if you really read the whole thing (including the comments) you would have seen that the interrogator himself (purportedly) engaged in the discussion. So now the obvious question: What did you think? Did it affect your initial assessment of the Frontline piece?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The fact that you are stupid is perfectly relevant to a discussion of the shortcomings of your posts, Johnny. If you want people to ignore your ignorance and stupidity, do something else.

The war on terror is a righteous war; Bush and co are lame ducks who shouldn't be running a tack shop in Waco.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, it was about the Frontline documentary, but it discussed the interrogator. And if you really read the whole thing (including the comments) you would have seen that the interrogator himself (purportedly) engaged in the discussion. So now the obvious question: What did you think? Did it affect your initial assessment of the Frontline piece?

The interrogator talks about things he did, things he saw, and things he heard about. What's the problem?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here are some useful articles about the utter illegality of US torture policies from the Knight Professor of Consititutional Law at Yale and some of his lawyer mates.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/09/anti-torture-memos-balkinization-posts.html

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It might also be worth mentioning that Mohammad Siddique Khan, the apparent leader of the London tube bombers mentioned torture of his people as a motivation for blowing up his fellow citizens on the tube.

How is torturing terrorism suspects meant to be helping again? From my perspective it clearly makes things worse by motivating relatively normal British youth to become suicide bombers. What benefits have been realised from torture that justify these rather obvious drawbacks?

Apart from the obvious point that torturing people makes you evil scum.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It might also be worth mentioning that Mohammad Siddique Khan, the apparent leader of the London tube bombers mentioned torture of his people as a motivation for blowing up his fellow citizens on the tube.

How is torturing terrorism suspects meant to be helping again? From my perspective it clearly makes things worse by motivating relatively normal British youth to become suicide bombers. What benefits have been realised from torture that justify these rather obvious drawbacks?

Apart from the obvious point that torturing people makes you evil scum.

I think that Khan would have come up with something different, if torture hadn't been revealed at that point.

Watching the show last night was kind of sickening; no doubt, torture goes against everything we claim to value as a society. Also, it's five years since 911, so some of that zealous fire has died down.

But in discussing it with my wife afterward, we brought up the old shibboleth: "what if the detainee knew the location of a nuclear device timed to go off in 24 hours, in a major metropolitan area: what about torture in that event?"

It flows down from there to: 'this guys friends will probably launch an RPG attack on a convoy and kill fellow soldiers tomorrow: should we torture him?'

What it boils down to for me is, I'm not sure about the morality of torturing in order to save dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of lives, but if it turns out that it doesn't even work in the first place, then why bother?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, Prof. Balkin makes an interesting point in one of those articles I linked.

Suppose you really do have one of those situations propagandised by the TV series 24 and any number of right wing arseholes where you really do have a ticking bomb? In that case, certainly the investigators will use whatever methods they deem necessary and take the risk of being judged for it later.

On the other hand, if you allow torture to become routine, history tells us that it'll become recreational and all those creepy redneck perverts we saw in the Abu Ghraib pictures (the ones that we're allowed to see) will have their fun.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, Prof. Balkin makes an interesting point in one of those articles I linked.

Suppose you really do have one of those situations propagandised by the TV series 24 and any number of right wing arseholes where you really do have a ticking bomb? In that case, certainly the investigators will use whatever methods they deem necessary and take the risk of being judged for it later.

On the other hand, if you allow torture to become routine, history tells us that it'll become recreational and all those creepy redneck perverts we saw in the Abu Ghraib pictures (the ones that we're allowed to see) will have their fun.

The frontline show made it pretty clear, imo, that people like Graner and England were just fall guys. Of course sadists will come out of the woodwork if you create a culture of sadism.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Precisely. If you make torture illegal, then if those '24' type circumstances really do occur that suggest its use might help to save thousands of lives, then it'll almost certainly happen anyway, and the perpetrators will take their chance that the legal system will treat their actions as mitigated by events.

Otherwise, approving the use of torture is an excuse for every degenerate pig-fucking redneck pervert to get their sick kicks in a way that is utterly counterproductive if you actually care about reducing the risk of terrorism.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Precisely. If you make torture illegal, then if those '24' type circumstances really do occur that dictate it's use, then it'll almost certainly happen anyway.

Otherwise, approving the use of torture is an excuse for every degenerate pig-fucking redneck pervert to get their sick kicks in a way that is utterly counterproductive if you actually care about reducing the risk of terrorism.

That's true, but if it would actually prevent something like the London Tube bombing, then it seems almost worth it.

As long as you're not just pulling people in off the street and torturing them.

In the show last night, they told how interrogations would happen when the soldiers were going into people's homes.

At first it was pretty rudimentary: "Where is Saddam?" [punch, punch]

"Where are the weapons of mass destruction?" [punch punch]

I'm not making it up. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Armies doing counter-insurgency are always going to slide into that shit in the most stupid way imaginable. That's precisely why it's totally illegal everywhere remotely civilised.

 

[nino_savatte]

This has been going on for years yet you and your cohorts refused to believe that these practices were ongoing when we reported them in the first place.

So what's your moral obligation now to report what was there right in your pig fuck face to begin with?

Did you listen then?

He's playing his game, as usual.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Are you peebs replacement?

I think you mean 'rag' not 'rage'. And the OP is not particulary known on this board for being a lefty..

Peebs bitch more like.

Might be a new porn genre its 'fantastic fetish fash fucking'

 

[nino_savatte]

Nice try...NOT! The FR link you posted was to a thread discussing an article from the Guardian. Unlike u75, many posters on FR try to actually educate themselves and thus look to a variety of sources. BTW, did you check out the blog post I linked to above?

Many posters on FR do what? Sorry, I'm pissing myself with laughter here....

 

[vimto]

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well...wtf

 

[oi2002]

1) Who is "peeb"? (Please don't answer if I have no reason to care.)

Our resident grassroots GOP representive. Much abused but oddly resilient.

 

[oi2002]

Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft, Condi Rice, Alberto Gonzalez, John Bolton, John Roberts, Samuel Alito; these people aren't competant?!?

Irony???

Rice is actually looking promising, Roberts and Alito I can't judge. The others are spectacular balloons that a more assured President would have fired long ago.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well...wtf

This troll has no style and no wit; he's pbman with better spelling.

 

[Streathamite]

Nice try...NOT! The FR link you posted was to a thread discussing an article from the Guardian. Unlike u75, many posters on FR try to actually educate themselves and thus look to a variety of sources. BTW, did you check out the blog post I linked to above?

ah HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
you really have no link to reality, do you?

 

[TAE]

Here you go:

www.reality.com

 

[Streathamite]

Ba-da-ba-da-boom-tish!!!

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interesting Reuters article.

Documents tie shadowy US unit to inmate abuse cases

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Interesting Reuters article.

Documents tie shadowy US unit to inmate abuse cases

Interesting stuff. I wonder if RY will come on to challenge that?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interesting stuff. I wonder if RY will come on to challenge that?

Who cares? He's a waste of time, low-grade troll.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Who cares? He's a waste of time, low-grade troll.

I'm beginning to come to that opinion. We shall see if he makes any sensible input to the Iran thread.

 

[kyser_soze]

Suppose you really do have one of those situations propagandised by the TV series 24

You might not agre with it, but I have a slightly different take on S4 of 24 which is the one with the torture scenes...

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=4061017&postcount=10

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, I must admit I've never actually watched 24.

I was, perhaps carelessly, using it as short-hand for the 'ticking bomb' scenario used so often by torture apologists and as far as I am able to determine, encountered very rarely, if at all, in real life.