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The Times: "Brixton: the depressing symbol of Britain's multicultural failure"

I did buck the trend in a small way. And if I had been there longer I would have probably found out more what was going on and possibly challenged a few things.
Of course, your personal experiences may not be even slightly representational of Brixton as a whole.

Anecdotally, I certainly see enough mixed groups of council workers enjoying their lunch in local cafes or grabbing a beer after work.
 
Why did you feel the need to interfere with who people chose to socialise with, and the desire to force them to change that?

What people do outside of work is entirely their business, not yours.

It was not entirely their business it was also mine.
 
It was not entirely their business it was also mine.

Not in the slightest.

If someone I work with started trying to dictate to me who I should and shouldn't be mixing with, either at work or outside work, I'd tell them right where to shove it.

I work with certain people because they are in my department. We might occasionally go out for a team lunch somewhere, but I wouldn't dream of spending an evening with pretty much any of them in a 'social' context. They're just not "my kind" of people probably any more than I am theirs.

You have the right to express any concerns, but we also have the right to tell you to fuck off.
 
So basically Tob, what you're saying is that because you didn't see rainbow lunch and post-work crowds, that Lambeth council is a deeply segregated organisation?
 
editor said:
Apart from that, he just seems to be projecting his own inability to make friends on to the community, he's confusing race with class and finished off by throwing a few tired stereotypes.

Pointless article.
is it? to me - regardless of whether i agree with everything he says, or even like him - he is going some way toward pointing out what i have always thought about britain as a whole, and that is that we will happily confuse multi race / faith tolerance with a multi racial society (where very mingles / socialises with everyone else) where it suits us to do so
 
The writer's a twat - check out some of his other work: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/sathnam_sanghera/

Sounds to me as if he didn't make too much effort to be part of any community and settled for mixing with 'the young proffesionals' because that's where he felt most at home. Interesting also that he felt the need to be flexible when describing where he lived so as to ensure the right message about himself.

He's better off out of Brixton, or we're better off not having him.
 
What would you have challenged tob? What aspects of adults living their lives didn't square with your vision of how integration should be?

Of course, your personal experiences may not be even slightly representational of Brixton as a whole.

Anecdotally, I certainly see enough mixed groups of council workers enjoying their lunch in local cafes or grabbing a beer after work.

You know I sort of wish I hadn't said anything now. I was only making my own observation and I know what I saw and I am an astute observer.... and now people are trying to get me to extend into "representational of Brixton as a whole.." and "vision of how integration should be.."

And as for challenging I'm not talking about anything like particularly grand or confrontational just asking people out for a drink or something.
 
is it? to me - regardless of whether i agree with everything he says, or even like him - he is going some way toward pointing out what i have always thought about britain as a whole, and that is that we will happily confuse multi race / faith tolerance with a multi racial society (where very mingles / socialises with everyone else) where it suits us to do so
I have trouble taking an article about Brixton seriously when the author can't even bring himself to say that's where he's from (depending on who he's trying to impress).
 
Last time I was in Brixton I went to the little Ethiopean restaurant down the road from the Albert and it was nothing like what this guy is talking about.

The stuff about muggings etc. is disturbing but away from the thrust of his main argument, which I never really see in Brixton. It's a bit of a patchwork but hardly as if the communities don't mingle.

He's probably just projecting his own unpleasantness onto others.
 
like a lot of inner london lambeth is deeply divided on income (partly class and education generated)

look at the mix of properties on either side of tulse hill around brockwell gate - social housing (council and HA) will house a variety of incomes including below poverty line/working poor and then new build properties going for 500K and roads off it with larger houses

I've hopped over and under and way above and near to it again and now thankfully away again from the poverty line whilst bringing my daughter up

when very close to a subsistence income and working I've felt very excluded from a lot of what an area has to offer (I was in Hackney/tower hamlets all that time)

Now my income is more comfortable I access a lot more of a range of things

there are some links between ethnic grouping and income
certainly between class and income

different people are being included and excluded according to income
 
So basically Tob, what you're saying is that because you didn't see rainbow lunch and post-work crowds, that Lambeth council is a deeply segregated organisation?

Not just tob, but the trade union Unison claims Lambeth Council is racially divided on pay. Lambeth denies this, but there's an interesting piece here.
As for the piece in The Times I felt the author undermined himself when three quarters of the way in he breaks off to remark:

"Does this matter? Not a huge amount"
 
I have trouble taking an article about Brixton seriously when the author can't even bring himself to say that's where he's from (depending on who he's trying to impress).

so ignore what he's saying then, even if some of it might ring true, brixton or elsewhere?

personally, it sounds to me like he was living in stockwell....
 
I think Brixton is divided by race and class, just like the rest of the UK. But it is also a very mixed population. Lots of long term Black and White residents and a hell of a lot of fairly young and wealthy white incomers.
A lot of those people live in a bit of a bubble. I went out on friday to the adulis restaurant on brixton road....a table for 16. Every single person White and Middle Class....I joked to my mate.....i bet their anti racists.........
 
how inclusive of you :hmm: :D

Well, he's not written anything that has suggested he was willing to give something worthwhile to the area. Perhaps he wanted Brixton to work for him and he wasn't prepared to work for Brixton.

You get out what you put in!
 
I went out on friday to the adulis restaurant on brixton road....a table for 16. Every single person White and Middle Class...
It was the same at Fujiyama and then the Academy on Friday. Everyone was from exactly the same demographic (although I realise people travel from all over to come to the Academy).
 
Has anyone written a letter to the Times pointing out the flaws in the article? And maybe put some of the points raised in this discusson. If several people did there is a chance that one or two would be printed
 
What a silly article, and what silly opinions in places here. Thank fuck nobody's started listing their ethnically diverse friends yet.
 
Brixton is, like anywhere else, a different place to different people. My Brixton is a pretty good mix of people, with a strong representation of black Londoners, West Africans, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, and working class white people. Some situations I find that mix is there pretty much in its entirety, at other times one community or another dominates things. I don't see all that much racial friction, though there is racism in Brixton, it's just that most of the local racists have learned that it isn't appreciated. However there is the same problem of subconscious prejudice that you see pretty much everywhere. In Brixton, as elsewhere, the money and power is still largely in the hands of white middle/upper class men. There's still work to do in raising the aspirations and expectations of black youngsters. It's far from perfect, but hardly a failure of multi-culturalism.
 
Brixton is, like anywhere else, a different place to different people. My Brixton is a pretty good mix of people, with a strong representation of black Londoners, West Africans, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, and working class white people. Some situations I find that mix is there pretty much in its entirety, at other times one community or another dominates things. I don't see all that much racial friction, though there is racism in Brixton, it's just that most of the local racists have learned that it isn't appreciated. However there is the same problem of subconscious prejudice that you see pretty much everywhere. In Brixton, as elsewhere, the money and power is still largely in the hands of white middle/upper class men. There's still work to do in raising the aspirations and expectations of black youngsters. It's far from perfect, but hardly a failure of multi-culturalism.


Well i think you can hardly call Brixton a shining example of multicultural success. But neither does it show multi-culturalism cant work etc etc.....But it is still really quite divided along race and class lines.
 
Well i think you can hardly call Brixton a shining example of multicultural success. But neither does it show multi-culturalism cant work etc etc.....But it is still really quite divided along race and class lines.
Absolutely. But that's nothing extraordinary compared to the rest of the country, or most of the world tbh.
 
1. Every single person White and Middle Class....2. I joked to my mate.....i bet their anti racists.........
1. Did you ask every person by turn what their class was, or is this simply your prejudice.

2. You do realise that this is an utterly moronic thing to say, do you not? As Crispy says, are you going to list your 'ethnic' friends now?
 
It was the same at Fujiyama and then the Academy on Friday. Everyone was from exactly the same demographic (although I realise people travel from all over to come to the Academy).

Never been to Fujiyama, but as far as the Academy goes, maybe it's more down to the group that's playing that evening that attracts the people, rather than any particular "racial divide" enforced by some kind of demographic?

I know there's probably going to be the odd exception, but I would be surprised if any 80 year old white people went to the UK B-Boy Championships, or a Bashment evening, for example.
 
Absolutely. But that's nothing extraordinary compared to the rest of the country, or most of the world tbh.

True. But what makes areas like Brixton different is the large number of people who moved in activelly wanting to live in a racially diverse area.
It works but only to a point and their is more than a whiff of hypocrisy about some of the people.
 
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