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The Supermerger and the Labour Party

Sorry.

give it a rest
What effect do people think that the proposed Amicus, T&G & GMB merger will have on the union's relationship with the Labour Party?

Interesting bit of red-baiting in the comment section of today's Times by Mary-Ann Sieghart, expressing concerns at the merger allowing left-wing union leaders Tony Woodley and Dave Prentis (sic) to hold the Labour Party to ransom. Mostly drivel, but containing this interesting point:

Ian McCartney, Labour Party chairman, has been holding private talks with union leaders and Brendan Barber, the general secretary of the TUC, to discuss a way forward. A senior party aide describes it as “inconceivable” that just two men could be in a position to boss the party — and therefore the Government — around.

What chances divorce post-merger?
 
very very slight.

one of the points of the merger is to have more impact within the Labour Party. Prentis & Woodley may both be critical of New Labour (Woodley particularly) but they still believe resolutely in that party, and wish to 'reclaim' it. Whenever the merger gets a mentin in the T&G someone will chime up with the fact that there will be 250 MP's who are members of/sponsored by the union - as if that will make any difference. Brown is already a T&G member (as might Blair be, cant remember offhand) and he happily ignores union policy all the time.

I think the merger would actually put off much debate about Labour for a few years, while the union 'works out' how to influence the party - and then would simply try and implement what various other unions already are doing - ie only funding MP's who vote in line with union policy.
 
As a member of one of the three unions mooted for merger into this Superunion, I will be campaigning against it, as I do not think it is in the best interests of our members, or for the future of the union movement. I know that there are many others who are opposed, too, and we will be continuing this campaign during the TUC next week...
 
why do you think it's bad move guinevere? I'm not wholly convincved by the proposal, but am broadly supportive of something that moves against the inter-union competition in many sectors, which [nicking members from other unions] for many is the only way they see to recruit anyone at all.
 
belboid said:
I think the merger would actually put off much debate about Labour for a few years, while the union 'works out' how to influence the party - and then would simply try and implement what various other unions already are doing - ie only funding MP's who vote in line with union policy.

My guess fwiw is that this above is most likely- similar to the Labor-sponsored Congressmen and Senators in America- people like consistig of the Campaign group and maybe a few others.
I'd imagine funds would still go to the "Labour Party" as a whole in an election year.
 
belboid said:
very very slight.

one of the points of the merger is to have more impact within the Labour Party. Prentis & Woodley may both be critical of New Labour (Woodley particularly) but they still believe resolutely in that party, and wish to 'reclaim' it. Whenever the merger gets a mentin in the T&G someone will chime up with the fact that there will be 250 MP's who are members of/sponsored by the union - as if that will make any difference. Brown is already a T&G member (as might Blair be, cant remember offhand) and he happily ignores union policy all the time.

Yeah, I agree that from Woodley & Prentis' perspective they want to reclaim the Labour Party, but the reason that the bit I quoted interested me was from the other side - that the Labour Party would find even attempting such a maneuvre unacceptable and might take steps to sideline/blunt the influence of the super union.

A leak this year of a research document from within Labour’s Trade Union Liaison Organisation that discussed breaking the party’s link with the unions showed that thought is being given to handling a super-union.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1772048,00.html

Could the impetus come from the other direction?
 
belboid said:
why do you think it's bad move guinevere? I'm not wholly convincved by the proposal, but am broadly supportive of something that moves against the inter-union competition in many sectors, which [nicking members from other unions] for many is the only way they see to recruit anyone at all.

Because I was actively involved in the merger which lead to UNISON, and have seen from first hand what happens to the ordinary member when a superunion is created.

I agree that the unions should stop nicking each others members, and that the disputes between unions are petty and pointless and unhelpful, but there are plenty of other ways of dealing with that other than merging them all into one big union. Besides, UNISON and SUPERUNION will still be competing with each other. Even more than now, in fact, since UNISON already hates both TGWU and GMB and will hate them even more if they merge into a bigger union.

I think members are best served by a union which is concentrating on collectivism and supporting individuals in their employment struggles/disputes. I don't think the setting up of this SUPERUNION will aid this, since the little branches (like mine) will just get even more lost than they already are. Also, the setting up of UNISON, along with every other union merger which has happened, lead to a reduction in the number of full time paid officials. How can this help the lay member? In UNISON's case, they paid off about a third of their workforce very quickly, and then continued to lose/drop staff over the following few years!
 
I just found this sitting in my inbox, too... It is from the Financial Times, I believe...


An urgent call for unions to evolve
By Jonathan Baume
Published: September 7 2005

Britain's trade unions are arguably in their worst state for a century, with all evidence pointing to continuing decline.

Since 1979, membership of Trades Union Congress affiliated unions has fallen from one in two British workers to one in five. Under Labour, unions have lost almost 300,000 members while overall employment has increased. Moreover, private sector union densities are highest in declining industries such as manufacturing while remaining at well under 10 per cent in expanding sectors such as services.
Unions are being left behind as British society changes, their "mythology" - rooted in a largely vanished "working class" culture - going the way of black and white photographs. Young people today, whatever their background, aspire in their employment and personal lives, and aspiration is not commonly associated with unions.
Whatever one's view of this government, it is as supportive of unions as any future government is likely to be. No change of Labour leader, or government, is likely to create a more benign environment for unions. Facing these bleak realities, British unions must begin an open and frank debate on the way forward. Here are two proposals.
First, we must revitalise the TUC's role and reassess union relationships with the Labour Party. Second, re-evaluate the benefits of an adversarial approach in contrast to a more constructive agenda. The TUC is one of the unions' greatest assets but its traditional role - presenting a collective union voice and opening otherwise closed doors - is being weakened by confusion over how Labour affiliated unions should engage with a Labour government. Since 1997, Labour affiliated unions have consolidated and currently just four - Amicus, GMB, the Transport and General Workers' Union and Unison - represent 60 per cent of all TUC members and dominate its decision-making bodies. The independence and influence of the wider TUC has consequently diminished.
The much-vaunted Warwick agreement, which provided new rights for workers in return for supporting key government policies, was mainly agreed privately between the "big four" and government. Other unions, which were not adequately consulted, are wondering who Warwick was for and want the TUC restored to centre stage.
Some unions do not adequately separate politics from process, seeking to rewrite the government's manifesto rather than acknowledging its electoral mandate and negotiating to make it benefit members. The confusion will multiply if Amicus, the T&G and GMB merge as planned. What will be the TUC's role if just two unions represent 60 per cent of the votes and provide most of its finance? And what of its - and their - relationship to Labour?
 
Sorry - yeah, the LP will face something of a contradiction over the merger. On the one hand they will be keen because it probably will secure funding for a few more years, but worried about the level of influence it will have. Yet another change (emascualtion) of conference rules could well be on the agenda. But I dont think they will oppose it (speeches from Brown & McCartney at T&G conf certainly seemed quite happy with the merger), the money comes first!

Guineveretoo - it's funny, most of the most vociferous opponents of the merger I know are people who were in Unison for that merger! Which was carried through appalingly, and disgracefully - adopting the least democratic structures and rules from the various unions rather than the best. But the reports from T&G and Amicus conferences (dunno about the GMB's) made clear how the delegates (at least) were adamant that any new union must adopt the best of the rulebooks - that lay democracy is not removed, and that the membership is still at least as involved as it is now. If such propositins dont make it into the new rule book ,then thre will e a widespread opposition. But if they6 are thre, then I see no principlaed reason why a merger should be oposed. One union in civil aviation, engineering car manufacturing, down to two in the voluntary sector (and one of them is those bastards Unison, so they dont count (;)) - good things.
As to lay off of full-timers, that's an important point. So far hte T&G have said there will be no redundancies, but that doesnt mean that they won't allow 'natuarl wastage'. This must be guarded against - []however[/i] the merger could (& according to Woodley will) mean that union offices can be set up in area's where now it isn't worth any of the three unins setting up an office on its own, but which would be worthwhile if the other swere involved too.
 
When UNISON was set up, all the assurances about lay democracy and no redundancies and the best of the rules etc. were given to each of the union conferences, overall membership and staff unions. So I don't think I can accept any assurances which are being offered by the three unions involved here.

The big problems following the UNISON merger, and also experienced when PCS was set up through merger, too, included "cultural" problems, in that each of the three unions ran their affairs in a particular way, and had developed specific relationships with their lay structure, and with management/employers. This was true not only at a national level, where, at least, the union conferences were able to have some influence (well, at least on paper) but also, and more importantly, at a local level, where changes were imposed on the local branches and lead to serious problems of representation and support to members, while the local Branches from the three unions were busy falling out with each other, and jostling for position. These "cultural" differences are still evident in both PCS and UNISON at all levels.

Also, although the argument for one union within one employer looks attractive, in practice the needs of a middle manager, or even a senior manager, and those of a junior manual worker are quite different. As a UNISON full timer, and working in a smaller team, with less support available to us because of all the cuts, it was impossible to prioritise support to middle and senior managers and professionals (e.g. social workers) above that of the manual and junior staff who were being picked off and picked on. This meant that the service provided to middle and senior managers and professionals suffered, and these groups of staff left UNISON in droves. There are lots of reasons why this is disastrous for UNISON and, to a lesser extent, caused difficulties for PCS.
 
Guineveretoo said:
Besides, UNISON and SUPERUNION will still be competing with each other.


Amicus GS Derek Simpson simplistically sees UNISON as being THE public sector union and SUPERUNION being THE private sector one.
 
Guineveretoo said:
When UNISON was set up, all the assurances about lay democracy and no redundancies and the best of the rules etc. were given to each of the union conferences, overall membership and staff unions. So I don't think I can accept any assurances which are being offered by the three unions involved here.
one should never simply accept 'assurances'. It has got to be made clear that no merger could be supported if such matters weren't already written into the rule book of any new union. The leadership of all three unions are pushing a 'merger at any cost' line, which is obviously bollocks. But there are still positive reasons for the merger, which would strengthen the ability of the members to fight efectively. The dangers you mention are very real, and must be addressed prior to the merger being agreed, but aren't in themselves a reason for outright opposition, imo.
 
GMB Congress was mostly skeptical on the merger and could only pass a motion seeking further investigations before making a decision. If the merger had been put yes or no it would have been defeated heavily. GMb members are concerned about the centralisation and rule by dictat in the TGWU and more so in AMICUS and the removal of branch voting and campaign rights in AMICUS.

The average GMB member also sees no urgent reason to merge. Simpsons ideas that it make a more powerful union so therefore more workers will join is just old fashioned Morning Star tanky bollocks.

I don't think it would have any impact on the Party tbh as all Simpson and Woodley are right up Blairs arse already - and telling us Brown would be different is nonsense. The TUC will campaign against the merger I think however following the AFL-CIO saga stateside.
 
Sorry. said:
Yeah, I agree that from Woodley & Prentis' perspective they want to reclaim the Labour Party, but the reason that the bit I quoted interested me was from the other side - that the Labour Party would find even attempting such a maneuvre unacceptable and might take steps to sideline/blunt the influence of the super union.

I agree this would be unacceptable to new labour and they would take further steps to reduce the influence of the unions. They just ignore any motions at national conference anyway eg PFI and most of the Warwick agreement has been reneged.
 
Guineveretoo said:
I just found this sitting in my inbox, too... It is from the Financial Times, I believe...


An urgent call for unions to evolve
By Jonathan Baume
Published: September 7 2005

Britain's trade unions are arguably in their worst state for a century, with all evidence pointing to continuing decline.
...

Anorak point: Baume was in the IS (forerunner of SWP) in the 1970s and in one its many splinters the ISA, who included the Workers League. He briefly joined the IMG in about 1979 when the ISA dissolved. He dropped out and went on to become the union leader of the best paid trade unionists in britain - top civil servants, some on over £100k pa. They still keep the ridiculous name - First Division Association - which was an elitist name dating from long ago when civil service grades were ranked 'first division', 'second division', 'third division' etc. Baume himself was in the 'third division' and CPSA when he worked in the civil service. As far as I know the FDA have never taken industrial action over anything.
 
Fisher_Gate said:
Anorak point: Baume was in the IS (forerunner of SWP) in the 1970s and in one its many splinters the ISA, who included the Workers League. He briefly joined the IMG in about 1979 when the ISA dissolved. He dropped out and went on to become the union leader of the best paid trade unionists in britain - top civil servants, some on over £100k pa. They still keep the ridiculous name - First Division Association - which was an elitist name dating from long ago when civil service grades were ranked 'first division', 'second division', 'third division' etc. Baume himself was in the 'third division' and CPSA when he worked in the civil service. As far as I know the FDA have never taken industrial action over anything.

IIRC Baume was a supporter of Redder Tape which was the SWP dominated 'rank and file' organisation for civil servants. This would be before 1976 when I was a member of the CPSA whilst working for the Post Office (CPSA retained representation rights for clerical workers after the PO ceased to be part of the Civil Service).

BarryB
 
shandy said:
Amicus GS Derek Simpson simplistically sees UNISON as being THE public sector union and SUPERUNION being THE private sector one.

I don't think the General Secretaries of either TGWU or GMB would agree with that, since both of them have thousands of members in the public sector and both of them are in direct competition with UNISON!
 
Fisher_Gate said:
Anorak point: Baume was in the IS (forerunner of SWP) in the 1970s and in one its many splinters the ISA, who included the Workers League. He briefly joined the IMG in about 1979 when the ISA dissolved. He dropped out and went on to become the union leader of the best paid trade unionists in britain - top civil servants, some on over £100k pa. They still keep the ridiculous name - First Division Association - which was an elitist name dating from long ago when civil service grades were ranked 'first division', 'second division', 'third division' etc. Baume himself was in the 'third division' and CPSA when he worked in the civil service. As far as I know the FDA have never taken industrial action over anything.
If we are being anoraky (ooh, I didn't know I could use that word as an adjective!), the FDA is no longer called the First Division Association. It changed its name some years ago, in order to avoid the allegations of elitism (unsuccessfully, it would seem) to "FDA - the union of choice for senior managers and professionals in public service".

Oh, and FDA got the highest turn out and the highest majority for industrial action against last year's proposals to take away the final salary pension and raise the pension age.

It's certainly true that they haven't taken industrial action for a long time, but it's not true to say never. Particularly if one is being an anorak :)
 
Guineveretoo said:
I don't think the General Secretaries of either TGWU or GMB would agree with that, since both of them have thousands of members in the public sector and both of them are in direct competition with UNISON!
you'd have thought so, but.....

It is pretty much the line that is being pushed inside T&G, in the long term. There have already been vague talks with the NUM about joining. Mick Rix is quite keen on it too (& he was a T&G activist after his defeat in Aslef, now working for GMB(?)). There would obviously be some 'reckoning' to do to sort out the 'overlaps', but it's far from impossible.

Don't forget, an awful lot of the public sector members are now being pushed out with ALMO's etc, and are in a 'third sector' limbo. It's a way off, but it's a possibility.
 
BarryB said:
IIRC Baume was a supporter of Redder Tape which was the SWP dominated 'rank and file' organisation for civil servants. This would be before 1976 when I was a member of the CPSA whilst working for the Post Office (CPSA retained representation rights for clerical workers after the PO ceased to be part of the Civil Service).

BarryB

Yep, same guy. I think Redder Tape was one of the better R&F groups though.

And I think abandoning the full title while keeping the acronym FDA is pretty unimportant - everyone will ask what it means. I knew that all the civil service unions had voted for action, but I didn't think the FDA had actually taken any.
 
Fisher_Gate said:
Yep, same guy. I think Redder Tape was one of the better R&F groups though.

One of the better names anyway. What happened to it? Was it wound up, did it fade away or was it absorbed by Left Unity or its predecessors?
 
decent article in todays Morning Star

FOR over a year, a heightened debate has taken place within the labour movement over the merit creating a "superunion" from the merger of Amicus, the GMB and T&G.

Union mergers have never been off the agenda. In response to continuing membership decline, TUC reports in 1999, 2001 and 2003 contained proposals concerning union rationalisation and creating "industrial unionism" based on the principle of one industry, one union.

In 1900, Britain had 1323 unions, falling to 732 by 1950 and 238 by 1995. By 2005, there were just 186.

Inside the TUC, its 76 affiliates in 1997 dropped to 67 by 2005 following 19 mergers/transfers, being balanced out by 24 new affiliations and four disaffiliations/dissolutions.

The current proposal to create a superunion by 2007 arguably takes this debate into a different ballpark. With 2.6 million members, it would be twice the size of UNISON and comprise 40 per cent of all TUC membership.

Rather than being an industrial union, the merger would create a super general union and not even a private-sector superunion because of significant membership in the public sector.

Important questions need to be asked about the merger.

The starting point must be to ask whether members will be stronger than before? There are a number of aspects to this, but probably the most significant is whether the merger would make the union stronger in the workplace.

Greater numbers of different workers being in the same union would seem to be a positive development. However, the crux of the matter is whether there is manifest, not paper, unity and unity in action, not unity in passivity.

Would all members in one organisation be in the same branch and, following this, would they be more or less likely to mobilise collectively to defend their jobs, pay and conditions?

Another way of looking at this issue is to ask whether members in different organisations and sectors will be any more able or likely to act collectively by utilising their industrial muscle.

Would we see more examples of Gate Gourmet workers striking to defend themselves, as well as BA workers striking in support of Gate Gourmet workers?

Structural changes like mergers cannot on their own create collective power. And the anti-union laws governing what are legitimate trade disputes and lawful industrial action would still stand in the way of solidarity action and workers acting in concert.

Constructing effective collective power requires higher trade union consciousness, more activists, left-wing ideology, vibrant grass-roots campaigning and collective action itself.

Systems of collective bargaining would need to be returned to national bargaining to allow an aggregation of members' power in different workplaces.

Moreover, union members will have greater commitment to their union if their identity with it is secured as a result of it being a vigorous "fighting back" union.

Certainly, a merged union should be able to exercise more clout in the TUC and the Labour Party. But this assumes two things.

First, that the new union is united in policy. Second, that other unions stay where they are and do not reorganise themselves to counter the new union. In any case, will more clout necessarily bring tangible change in the policies and actions of either the TUC or Labour?

A standard rationale for merging is to achieve economies of scale. What will be the net savings accrued from ending duplication of administration after staff redundancies and restructuring costs are accounted for?

T&G general secretary Tony Woodley has suggested that the new union would be able to spend £20 million per year on organising. Very welcome though that is, it may not be enough to make a 2.6 million-strong union grow significantly.

Crucial to union activists will be the internal structures and processes of the new union. This is not just a question about democracy and accountability but also about effectiveness and efficiency.

Will the new union have the structures that allow not just good policy to emerge but also to ensure the effective implementation of this and the attaining of subsequent policy goals?

Issues concerning the place and influence of annual national and sectoral/trade group conferences, regional committees, regional secretaries and full-time officers - whether appointed or elected - and networks representing women, young, black and minority ethnic members will all need to be fully thought through and debated.

A merger should provide the opportunity to say: "If we were to start with a blank sheet, what would we want a new model union to look like?"

Using this and an assessment of what were the better and worse bits of the constituent unions, should lead to the possibility of a more inclusive, vibrant form of trade unionism.

Previous mergers have been plagued by prolonged periods of introspection and turmoil, with both vertical and horizontal integration of constituent unions taking considerable time.

These problems are likely to be magnified under the superunion, necessitating specific remedies to deal with them and considerable efforts to identify these remedies.

Achieving all these objectives is a tall order. In Germany, industrial unionism after 1945 did not stop decline or further merging.

If members discuss the proposed new union on the basis of more than just the hollow paper platitude of "stronger together" and thinking that having the right formal policies is sufficient, then the merger might have a chance of delivering a fighting, effective union.

• Professor Gregor Gall is professor of industrial relations at the University of Hertfordshire's Centre for Research in Employment Studies.
 
Guineveretoo said:
I don't think the General Secretaries of either TGWU or GMB would agree with that, since both of them have thousands of members in the public sector and both of them are in direct competition with UNISON!
Yes I'm in the Health Section of Amicus, which I'm told is the only sector that is growing significantly through recruitment
 
But bigger rarely means stronger in trade union mergers does it. We have to stop getting caught up in our own theory and pipedreams and deal with reality.

AMICUS does see this as a major re-alignment into one union for public and another for private sector - but its a nonsense economically as there are so many variants between sectors these days. it is alos a nonsense to pursue the fiction thta workers isseus are different in both these sectors and that workers do not move between them during their lives.

We should be suspicious of anyone who talks about merger by posing the question - "If we were designing the movement from scratch today what would we want it to look like?" This is classic navel gazing and re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic in reality. It also implies that union members can be dragooned into new industrial organisations by leaders in smoke filled rooms. It does not surprise me that this suggestion came from the pages of the Morning Star.

It is also dangerous to have only one organisation per industry under the current beaurocrat dominated rule books - and under the structures envisaged by AMICUS. Workers will have Hobson's choice - be in the union for their industry or be anti union - however corrupt, however in the pockets of the gvernment or the employers that union becomes.

The key thing is will any merger improve and strengthen workplace organisation and nothing I have heard from the main peddlers of this merger idea - Woodley and Simpson - suggests there is any chance.

Woodley juts talks about hoe much more money he can spend on "organising" whne so fra he has spent nearly £1 million paying consultancy fees to US union SEIU. Simpson just talks about how much more clout the new union will have in the Labour Party and then makes the assumption that this will translate into increased membership.

Its all crap and coming from the blushing bride in all this - GMB - I can't say many people I know are impressed with either the rhetoric, the pipe dreams or the sordid offers of big pay rises for senior officials coming in from Simpson in particular.

I agree with the posts by UNISON comrades. If we don't oppose this three averagely effective organisations will become one bloated ineffective outfit displaced from its increasingly alienated members and unable to put pressure on either employer or government. Like UNISON (sadly)

Whatever is being claimed this is juts another old fashioned stitch up to line the pockets of the officials and we should not get fooled again.

Lets start a counter movement: smaller is stronger, power comes from workplace organisation and democrasy, workers unity is undermined by mergers, making the beaurocrasy stronger is done at the expense of the members.
 
What is the state of play with the merger talks now? I hear that the GMB will be deciding on further participation in February, but that all three unions have teams working on the merger at the moment. The Times says there is a draft report. Have the ECs of the union seen the report? Or is it only shown to friendly journalists?
 
update please

What is the state of play with the merger talks now? I hear that the GMB will be deciding on further participation in February, but that all three unions have teams working on the merger at the moment. The Times says there is a draft report. Have the ECs of the union seen the report? Or is it only shown to friendly journalists?
 
I received a letter from Woodley co-signed by the other two last week, all saying that plans for the merger were going ahead apace - no other news tho. A draft report was due for the end of this month, to be discussed at this, or februarys GEC meeting - should know more then I imagine, but it is all strangely quiet. To me it loks like the full-time leaderships seem sold on he idea, but the rest of the execs, let alone the wider membership, are far less so convinced.
 
Sorry. said:
What effect do people think that the proposed Amicus, T&G & GMB merger will have on the union's relationship with the Labour Party?


Hopefully they will have enough influence to get the government to use the correct figures in any discussion about Incapacity Benefit instead of the blatant lies being bandied about by the government and the media.
 
There is a draft report going to the three Executives setting out broad principles: branch autonomy, more money on organising etc... which is pretty basic and nowhere near the detailed joint rule book you would have to have if you were going to merge three unions by January 2007 as Simpson and Woodley still seem to believe will happen.

From the GMB perspective the immediate concern this year is to organise a free, open, democratic and fair election for General Secretary as the members were promised at Congress in June 2005 when they appointed Kenny as caretaker.

As someone from the negotiating team in TGWU said: "Why would you waste time having an election if you are going to merge with us next year" Quite.

The interesting question I think will be whether AMICUS and TGWU go ahead without GMB if the GMB does pull out as expected.
 
matewan6 said:
The interesting question I think will be whether AMICUS and TGWU go ahead without GMB if the GMB does pull out as expected.
you betcha they will - and will then tell GMB/GMB members - 'join us or die'
 
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