The Student Thread...

[KeyboardJockey]

I regret not going to University as I feel that it has made me less employable. Jobs that I KNOW I can do are going to graduates as they are percieved to be more intellegent. I can hold my own intellectually with a lot of people but that is just because I read a lot and keep up with current affairs etc. But that degree certificate does make a whole lot of difference. I think having a degree increases your confidence and employers notice this.

 

[pembrokestephen]

For all you poor suckers about to start university, I really feel for you. I think its dreadful you have to take out loans. I left uni four years ago-and still have paid back only a minimum amount. I try not to worry about it, but its still a consideration.

Yahoo! has some good advice, maybe it'll help..

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/05092006/389/10-ways-student-finances-smarter.html

My advice, to anyone, would be to forget uni and take virtually any job, I had to do this when I left uni anyway. I worked in a supermarket for about a year, and then landed a job in govenement, very low pay, and I don't need a degree to do the job anyway.

I'm about to start the third year of my degree. As a mature student with no visible means of support , I'm entitled to the full grant. That means tuition fees paid, and a maHOOSive £1000 a year maintenance grant. Plus eligibility for the £5k/year student loan.

It's certainly not something I'd want to be doing at 18 or so, and without having got divorced and sold a house beforehand. These stories of people coming out with £25k of debt are depressing...

 

[pembrokestephen]

You can sneer, but I know someone who spent the summer applying for jobs in radio while he had a university place (law at a Welsh uni) under his belt. He's got his bags packed and everything and was just about to head off when yesterday a well-paid job offer from a major group landed on his doormat. Admittedly, he has spent the past five years or so campaigning for, funding and launching a youth community radio station in his home-town which might have had some bearing on the job offer, but now he's in something of a dilemma. If I was in his position, I'd take the job - real work with a company of this standing is surely better than three years doing a BA(Hons) for the CV?

It might be today, but what about further down the line? Having spend 25 years of my working life without a degree, I'm the last person to be saying it's essential if you want to get on, but there's rather more to it than just grabbing a qualification.

Then again, you don't have to go to uni at any particular age - he could always go back later, or study part-time.

 

[pembrokestephen]

You're right. Someone that spends their years from 18-21 working hard in a job, solving real problems, learning real skills and making real contacts is far more employable than someone with a low-grade degree in a theoretical subject from a low-ranked institution. The non-graduate is likely to be streets ahead.

That's not really comparing like with like, though, is it.

How would your comparison pan out if you were to talk about someone who spent their years from 18-21 in a series of dead-end low-skill jobs, rather than going to a decent institution and getting a good degree?

There are no absolutes, and luck's got a lot to do with it, but the potential for a decent degree to offer a better long term career prognosis is good enough to be worth at least considering. One thing that I think is definitely the case is that a degree by itself is not likely to be enough - ideally, you'd graduate with a decent degree and some kind of non-academic experience which says to potential employers that you're a rounded person who can do more than just get his assignments in on time, someone with initiative, some experience of some sort, and able to take responsibility for yourself and others around you.

 

[pembrokestephen]

No, a non-graduate is probably better off, because
1) They stand out from all those who have spent three of four years with their head in a book , since they might have some experience
2) They can pick and choose slightly more, depending on their circumstances, because they haven't just got to take any job to pay back student loans. This only benefits employers, they KNOW graduates are desperate for work, and there are loads of students all graduating with similar knowledge.
3) Graduates will have to work longer to obtain their state pension. I think its roughly 40 years for men and 39 for women. The time spent at uni means no N.I. contributions. The sonner you start you working life, the better!!

Just wondering here, given the timing of this post (just before the start of the academic year)...but did you just fail to get into university, and are making the best of a bad job? Not that that's a bad thing...

 

[pembrokestephen]

But why is that the case in the first place? Is it cause you absolutely need a degree level of formal education to go into the field, or is it just snobbery?

Law.
Medicine.
Engineering.
Pharmacy.

Just a few off-the-top-of-my-head examples of careers where you NEED a very large amount of basic knowledge to start with rather than being able to fly by the seat of your pants. I wouldn't want to be the patient of a doctor who was learning from scratch on the job!

The most obvious counter-examples I can think of is most IT work: in my experience in IT (25 years, man and boy ), most graduates came to it with lots of wonderful theoretical knowledge that wasn't much use in practice, and tended to be more out of date than those who'd spent the time working.

Yes, there is snobbery around the whole degree thing, but I suspect that most sensible employers are more interested in the reality - "can this person DO the job?". In many cases, that may well at least in part be a question of how well grounded that person is in the theoretical underpinnings of the knowledge necessary to do the job.

 

[La page]

Just wondering here, given the timing of this post (just before the start of the academic year)...but did you just fail to get into university, and are making the best of a bad job? Not that that's a bad thing...

No, I went to Southampton Uni for three years 1999-2002. Three worst years of my life, got a 2:1 in law(so everyone thinks I'm stuck up, I'm not), lecturers were appaling, had no social life because I had to study just to keep up (I just LOVE all those who talk about uni social life, it passed me by) and work part time. I'd rather be on the dole with no job than go near another uni. The only good point was the long summer break.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

1)Its still a job.
2) 10K is nothing to earn . So you have to pay rent/mortgage, utility bills and your student loan. You never have any spare money.
3)I had a prt time job while t uni. Never received a penny in N.I.

You bloody idiot, you don't recieve NI, you pay it.

 

[Roadkill]

No, I went to Southampton Uni for three years 1999-2002. Three worst years of my life, got a 2:1 in law(so everyone thinks I'm stuck up, I'm not), lecturers were appaling, had no social life because I had to study just to keep up (I just LOVE all those who talk about uni social life, it passed me by) and work part time. I'd rather be on the dole with no job than go near another uni. The only good point was the long summer break.

So in other words, because you had a bad time at uni you've decided it can't be any good for anyone else?

 

[La page]

You bloody idiot, you don't recieve NI, you pay it.

Quite right, I didn't earn enough to pay any contributions.

 

[pembrokestephen]

No, I went to Southampton Uni for three years 1999-2002. Three worst years of my life, got a 2:1 in law(so everyone thinks I'm stuck up, I'm not), lecturers were appaling, had no social life because I had to study just to keep up (I just LOVE all those who talk about uni social life, it passed me by) and work part time. I'd rather be on the dole with no job than go near another uni. The only good point was the long summer break.

Yeah, I saw that after I'd posted, so apologies for my presumption

Was it really such an unedifying experience, though, that you can see nothing of benefit arising from it? I mean, a 2:1 is a good degree (and if people think you're "stuck up", it's either because you are, or because they're jealous - which one do YOU think it is? ).

Because I'm a mature student, with a Life Of My Own, and also because I live 250 miles away from my uni and only have to go in one day a week for lectures and stuff, I don't really participate in the student lifestyle, either, but I've sampled it other times as a non-student. Yeah, a lot of it is overrated, or seems great at the time, but I can see how it can pall, but you sound REALLY down on it! I've heard stuff about crap lecturers, too: listening to my dad talk about his BSc, then his Master's, some of it is unbelievable: lecturers who mumbled, or who were deaf, or just plain appalling teachers, and with a very "I'm too good to speak to students" attitude (this was the 1960s), but somehow people got degrees and made some kind of career out of it.

I'm fortunate - well, that or undiscriminating - in that my lecturers have nearly all seemed approachable, knowledgeable, and competent. I've had a minor run-in with one of them, who wasn't really one of my tutors anyway, just a co-facilitator in a group, but some of my colleagues do seem to have difficulty with rather more of them. Ultimately, though, the impression I come away with is that the university thing is much more of a personal journey, and, provided you don't end up completely at odds with the staff, the finer details regarding their ability are not all that significant. After all, if you got a 2:1, that sounds like the situation for you, too - nobody gets a 2:1 entirely by accident.

To be blunt about it, it sounds like there's rather more to your university experience than we're seeing here: perhaps your attitude to it (or life in general) isn't all it could be?

 

[La page]

So in other words, because you had a bad time at uni you've decided it can't be any good for anyone else?

I just feel most people waste their time at uni. They go through school being told uni is wonderful, and end up disappointed, and broke.

 

[Roadkill]

I just feel most people waste their time at uni. They go through school being told uni is wonderful, and end up disappointed, and broke.

Not my experience - and I've been in the university system in one way or another since 1997 and known a lot of students - nor that of most people I speak to.

You might try reading the 'how was uni for you?' thread for a rather more balanced picture.

 

[La page]

Yeah, I saw that after I'd posted, so apologies for my presumption

Was it really such an unedifying experience, though, that you can see nothing of benefit arising from it? I mean, a 2:1 is a good degree (and if people think you're "stuck up", it's either because you are, or because they're jealous - which one do YOU think it is? ).

Because I'm a mature student, with a Life Of My Own, and also because I live 250 miles away from my uni and only have to go in one day a week for lectures and stuff, I don't really participate in the student lifestyle, either, but I've sampled it other times as a non-student. Yeah, a lot of it is overrated, or seems great at the time, but I can see how it can pall, but you sound REALLY down on it! I've heard stuff about crap lecturers, too: listening to my dad talk about his BSc, then his Master's, some of it is unbelievable: lecturers who mumbled, or who were deaf, or just plain appalling teachers, and with a very "I'm too good to speak to students" attitude (this was the 1960s), but somehow people got degrees and made some kind of career out of it.

I'm fortunate - well, that or undiscriminating - in that my lecturers have nearly all seemed approachable, knowledgeable, and competent. I've had a minor run-in with one of them, who wasn't really one of my tutors anyway, just a co-facilitator in a group, but some of my colleagues do seem to have difficulty with rather more of them. Ultimately, though, the impression I come away with is that the university thing is much more of a personal journey, and, provided you don't end up completely at odds with the staff, the finer details regarding their ability are not all that significant. After all, if you got a 2:1, that sounds like the situation for you, too - nobody gets a 2:1 entirely by accident.

To be blunt about it, it sounds like there's rather more to your university experience than we're seeing here: perhaps your attitude to it (or life in general) isn't all it could be?

Yes, it was such an uedifying experience. I earn less than £15,000 p.a., am doing a boring job, and rent a council house. I have a five figure debt. How are these positives?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Quite right, I didn't earn enough to pay any contributions.

Then you had the wrong job or didn't do enough hours. I was paying NI for the entire duration of my first two years at uni.

 

[La page]

Then you had the wrong job or didn't do enough hours. I was paying NI for the entire duration of my first two years at uni.

1) I worked in a supermarket. We're not talking high paid
2) I did as many hours as I could allowing for studying.

 

[pembrokestephen]

I just feel most people waste their time at uni. They go through school being told uni is wonderful, and end up disappointed, and broke.

I would agree with the generality of what you're saying, but I think you're misrepresenting it. I don't think that most people waste their time. Quite a lot of people might fuck about and not get the best from the experience, but - talking to all kinds of people who've been - most people come away from it with some kind of life experience that is of benefit or interest to them subsequently.

Yeah, schools DO tell people it's wonderful, or at least just assume people are going to go, whether or not there's any benefit to them doing so, but that's just like all the crap about schooldays being the best days of your life, or that GCSEs are absolutely critical to your future career. What they're doing is to overstate the case in exactly the same way as you're understating it.

When you go to university and do a degree, you aren't - hopefully, anyway - just learning about your subject. It's the first opportunity most people get to live away from home, build adult social networks, learn how to fit in with those around you, and learn how to learn - how to find information, research things, look at information critically, etc. If you try and look at your university career with less of a jaundiced eye, you may find that you, too, got the benefit of some of those experiences, but you're going to have to let yourself see that.

And - as other posters have said - just because YOUR experience was a negative one, you shouldn't be assuming that that will be the case for everyone (or even "most people"). Anyone who decided not to go to university on the strength of the posts you've made here would be making a very unwise choice.

 

[jbob]

In principle, I agree that there is too much emphasis being given on going to university. It isn't the be all and end all, and many students are unsuited to academic life. But, la page, your argument is not saying that - you make a broad sweeping generalisation based, it would seem, upon the fact you had an unhappy time at uni and are not in as successful a career as you would have hoped. Statistics suggest that HE graduates earn more than non-grads, there is no getting away from that.

I have returned to university as a mature student because I am passionate about my subject. There is no other reason than that. I am finding it an extremely rewarding experience.

 

[phildwyer]

Statistics suggest that HE graduates earn more than non-grads, there is no getting away from that.

That's not really a reason to justify so many people going into HE though.

 

[tom_craggs]

I have always thought that going to University should be to follow an academic interest, rather than with the sole purpose of getting a job (apaprt from some specific courses - Law etc). I fully support drives to get people more engaged in further education but I think the idea this should automatically mean University education is short sighted. More vocational courses, apprenticeships, and traditional academic degrees - its all further learning. part of my problem with tuition fees is that it encourages the idea that going to University is always a 'market' based decision - I am not sure it should be. There are many degrees (even classical ones) which will not lead directly to a job or even if they do, do not mean neccesarily higher wages I really enjoyed University but it was an academic interest, not a 'training', I am looking to do a masters degree for the same reasons.

 

[tom_craggs]

No, I went to Southampton Uni for three years 1999-2002. Three worst years of my life, got a 2:1 in law(so everyone thinks I'm stuck up, I'm not), lecturers were appaling, had no social life because I had to study just to keep up (I just LOVE all those who talk about uni social life, it passed me by) and work part time. I'd rather be on the dole with no job than go near another uni. The only good point was the long summer break.

If you did not have an interest in learning about law why duid you go to University to do it? University is not fun becuase if the social life, I work and have one of those anyway, it should really be about enjoying the academic work...otherwise whats the point in going?

 

[Roadkill]

If you did not have an interest in learning about law why duid you go to University to do it? University is not fun becuase if the social life, I work and have one of those anyway, it should really be about enjoying the academic work...otherwise whats the point in going?

Agree with that.

I always thought that people who went to university and didn't do any work, or did loads of work and nothing else, were missing out on half the experience.

As pembrokestephen says:

When you go to university and do a degree, you aren't - hopefully, anyway - just learning about your subject. It's the first opportunity most people get to live away from home, build adult social networks, learn how to fit in with those around you, and learn how to learn - how to find information, research things, look at information critically, etc. If you try and look at your university career with less of a jaundiced eye, you may find that you, too, got the benefit of some of those experiences, but you're going to have to let yourself see that.

Word, IMO.

 

[La page]

If you did not have an interest in learning about law why duid you go to University to do it? University is not fun becuase if the social life, I work and have one of those anyway, it should really be about enjoying the academic work...otherwise whats the point in going?

I had just finished my a-levels, treid to get a job for year, and seemed to have no chioce. Everyone assured me that law would have good career options, so I did the course.

 

[pembrokestephen]

I had just finished my a-levels, treid to get a job for year, and seemed to have no chioce. Everyone assured me that law would have good career options, so I did the course.

I need to try and put this delicately, because I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but...

So, you'd done A-levels, and spent a year trying to get a job. Then someone - everyone - said "go and get a law degree, it's a good career option", so you did.

Now, 3 years down the line you're apparently regretting it, even though you got a good degree, and are now still not working?

A few things occur to me.

First of all, why do you think you were finding it so hard to get work after your A-Levels? What sort of work were you going for? Were you applying for jobs and getting turned down, or just unable to find suitable work? Did they give you any reasons for not offering you work?

Next, when you were at uni, presumably, in your final year, the usual things were going on with employers - recruitment fairs, all that kind of stuff. Were you getting any interest from employers there?

You see, the picture that's beginning to emerge is of someone who's drifting along, not particularly happily, doing things because "everyone" tells you they're the right thing to do, but without any particular ambition to do anything in particular, and now with a feeling - certainly, this is the impression I get - of resentment at having been advised to go to university, and having done it, AND got a good degree out of it at the end, but still somehow it hasn't come together for you.

A 2:1 in law is, from what I understand, a very impressive gateway to all kinds of things. Employers like law graduates, because, quite apart from the fact that you're got a qualification in that particular area, you've demonstrated that you can apply yourself to a subject that involves a lot of hard work, and is applicable in all kinds of areas. So it would seem to me that, if you're still struggling to find some meaningful career, it's not for want of any academic ability or intelligence, but for some other reason (the same would apply to your difficulty in finding work after your A-Levels).

So I'm wondering what else is going on for you that's getting in the way. I don't think this problem is to do with university or your qualifications at all. Similarly, I can't imagine that it's simply a question of there not being any work available where you are - Southampton's not a depressed area, and you're within striking distance of London and the South East, which is still the most buoyant area in the country, economically. So it must be something else - perhaps something more personal.

Instead of being so down on the choices you've already made, I think you might want to have a careful think about where you are now, and what choices you need to make from here to move forward and get started doing something you want to do - that's something you want to do, not what everyone else is telling you you should be doing.

 

[Roadkill]

Maybe I'm being rather less diplomatic than pemprokestephen but, la page, I'm coming to think this thread says a lot more about your attitude than about the merits or otherwise of the university system.

 

[pembrokestephen]

Maybe I'm being rather less diplomatic than pemprokestephen but, la page, I'm coming to think this thread says a lot more about your attitude than about the merits or otherwise of the university system.

Nah, you're just saying what I'm saying in a lot fewer words

 

[fractionMan]

I miss drinking every night with my mates, shagging birds, geting up at lunchtime and... erm... pottery.

I could do without the loan though.

 

[equationgirl]

Most of the professions (teaching, law, medicine, engineering, pharmacy, accountancy for example) expect you to have a degree for full corporate membership (Chartership) of the professional institution.

I loved uni, it taught me a lot about myself and other people and I thrived in that environment. But that was because uni was right for me at that time.

Too many people are being pushed into going into uni when it isn't the best choice for them.

 

[snoogles]

You can sneer, but I know someone who spent the summer applying for jobs in radio while he had a university place (law at a Welsh uni) under his belt.... If I was in his position, I'd take the job - real work with a company of this standing is surely better than three years doing a BA(Hons) for the CV?

Take the job! He can always go back and do a degree later if he wants. Is a law degree necessarily going to help him get a job in radio anyway? Sounds like he's already got what he wants and can skip the three years of (possibly entirely irrelevant) training in something else.

At the risk of getting some people's backs up, I'd think very seriously if your A-level grades (or equivalent) are below CCC and/or your prospective institution is in the bottom 25% of the league table.

Seconded, though I'd probably say the bottom 50%, just in case...

I thought uni was great. I can't imagine what I'd be like now if I hadn't been there. However, I really had a love for the subject I chose, did well because of that and subsequently walked into a very well-paid job on my first interview

Seriously though, if you don't really want to study your subject and don't have a particular career in mind, then you're not going to have any goals to work towards and will probably therefore not do very well (and hence probably not get a good job). Maybe you could think about what you want first, then either go for a job or a course in uni, but whatever you do, put 110% into it because if you don't, you probably won't get what you want!