The Strangulation of Bethlehem.
- Thread starter moono
- Start date
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
thanks for again showing me up for using to many wordsJonti said:
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
First of all I have zero respect for the ultra biased point of view of posters like moomo who have a very black and white image of what is happening. Some of what posters on here and others who hold similar views say and post is verging on the anti semitic especially the vehemence with how they denounce Zionists (which fails to take into account that there are many different forms of Zionism some of which are postive not negative).
The presence of the wall has according to what I've heard reduced significantly the amount of terrorism by way of suicide bombing. That is not to say that the wall is a permanant or ethical way of solving the problems there.
The wall is having a negative effect on the lives of Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories that can't be denied. The main point is until the Israelis feel secure then they will not engage with the Palestinians. I think that it is a great shame that Fatah were so damn incompetant and corrupt that people ended up voting for Hamas. If this hadn't happend then things may well have moved somewhat.
I want to see an Israel at peace with it's neighbours not living in a bunker mentality. However, the Palestinians have not helped themselves by their actions and they have been so hostile to the legitimate state of Israel for so long that they will be the ones to have to make the first move.
Until there is some progress it will be difficult if not impossible to move forward and that moving forward will require some form of truth and reconcilliation commission.
One thing that the knee jerk anti zionists on here and elsewhere would do well to think long and hard on is that in Israel at least people are free to debate these and other issues which is a totally different situation to those citizens in those bastions of free speech and democracy in the rest of the Middle East.
The presence of the wall has according to what I've heard reduced significantly the amount of terrorism by way of suicide bombing. That is not to say that the wall is a permanant or ethical way of solving the problems there.
The wall is having a negative effect on the lives of Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories that can't be denied. The main point is until the Israelis feel secure then they will not engage with the Palestinians. I think that it is a great shame that Fatah were so damn incompetant and corrupt that people ended up voting for Hamas. If this hadn't happend then things may well have moved somewhat.
I want to see an Israel at peace with it's neighbours not living in a bunker mentality. However, the Palestinians have not helped themselves by their actions and they have been so hostile to the legitimate state of Israel for so long that they will be the ones to have to make the first move.
Until there is some progress it will be difficult if not impossible to move forward and that moving forward will require some form of truth and reconcilliation commission.
One thing that the knee jerk anti zionists on here and elsewhere would do well to think long and hard on is that in Israel at least people are free to debate these and other issues which is a totally different situation to those citizens in those bastions of free speech and democracy in the rest of the Middle East.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
'I say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit'
KJ;
So, you evidently missed the discussion here on why the term 'Zionism' was distasteful. The conclusion was that the 'reasonable' Zionists were partly responsible for the behaviour of the arsehole Zionists by allowing their movement to be taken over by fascists.
'Verging on the anti-Semitic' eh ? Tch, tch. Are you aware, or are you not, that Arabs are Semites ? If you are, then why are you still using such a stupid term for the purposes of exclusivity ?
Oh yes, and seeing this issue in 'black and white' is the route to solution. It's those who view it as a grey goo who have kept the issue festering for so long.
Look, if you want to root for the fucking Zionists then say so and don't ponce about emulating a 'bridge over troubled waters' for the benefit of those who have already stated that Zionism is an insane doctrine that ought to be outlawed. I know what Zionism has become and you obviously don't. You're just another mealy-mouthed Dumpty who thinks that inaction is 'cool' because it's , er...... 'safe'.
And don't call me by name in your brainless posts or I'll take umbrage.
So, you evidently missed the discussion here on why the term 'Zionism' was distasteful. The conclusion was that the 'reasonable' Zionists were partly responsible for the behaviour of the arsehole Zionists by allowing their movement to be taken over by fascists.
'Verging on the anti-Semitic' eh ? Tch, tch. Are you aware, or are you not, that Arabs are Semites ? If you are, then why are you still using such a stupid term for the purposes of exclusivity ?
Oh yes, and seeing this issue in 'black and white' is the route to solution. It's those who view it as a grey goo who have kept the issue festering for so long.
Look, if you want to root for the fucking Zionists then say so and don't ponce about emulating a 'bridge over troubled waters' for the benefit of those who have already stated that Zionism is an insane doctrine that ought to be outlawed. I know what Zionism has become and you obviously don't. You're just another mealy-mouthed Dumpty who thinks that inaction is 'cool' because it's , er...... 'safe'.
And don't call me by name in your brainless posts or I'll take umbrage.
It's funny how terrorist supporters
No matter what country they are from or support always stick together. The last time I looked the British Army were still in Northern Ireland. The last time I looked it was the IRA that had surrendered its weapons and explosives. Their aims of a 32 county state were still not acheived.
The similarities between the terrorists on moonos side and Cemertyones side are there for everyone to see. The attacks on innocent woman and children, the lies that follow always blaming it on others
The IRA shooting innocent women in the back of the head for simply being a census collector then blaming everyone else for the attack
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/conflict/violence.html
They even admit the lies, proving what cowards they were
http://www.phoblacht.net/am2501054g.html
the same with terrorists that moono supports blowing up the innocents.
one left wingers freedom fighter is most decent thinking peoples terrorist
cemertyone said:
No matter what country they are from or support always stick together. The last time I looked the British Army were still in Northern Ireland. The last time I looked it was the IRA that had surrendered its weapons and explosives. Their aims of a 32 county state were still not acheived.
The similarities between the terrorists on moonos side and Cemertyones side are there for everyone to see. The attacks on innocent woman and children, the lies that follow always blaming it on others
The IRA shooting innocent women in the back of the head for simply being a census collector then blaming everyone else for the attack
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/conflict/violence.html
They even admit the lies, proving what cowards they were
http://www.phoblacht.net/am2501054g.html
the same with terrorists that moono supports blowing up the innocents.
one left wingers freedom fighter is most decent thinking peoples terrorist
Fullyplumped said:
Fullyplumped. You are dealing with the British left here. Don't expect any manners or common sense. These guys are the most ignorant you will ever meet. They may have spent years and years reading left wing propaganda and may even visit countries they support, unless you are like moono who has never been in the Middle East in his life. They think sitting in front of computers printing reams and reams of left wing propaganda is 'this years' activism. None here have the balls or the courage to actually join one of their 'alleged struggles' but will support it from a safe distance. Cowards, just like the groups they support
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
guns_n_posies said:
Mmmm...for someone who is new to the forum you seem to know quite a lot.
I smell a rat......
You are rachamim and I claim my fiver.
Grandma: I see that you are fond of lumping people together into easily managed [by you] groups. sorry, I am myself and I stand for myself [and for the record no, I have not forgetten your request on the hate group ISM].
On the "Barrier," for those who have not seen me trot out this data the dozen or more times I have...Violent attacks emanating from areas bordered by the "Barrier" have decresed more than 84%, deaths have decreased by more than 96%. That is the function of the "Barrier," not to punish anyone. Of course it would not be at all neccessary, and will most likely be torn down, once the PA effectively manages to rein in the more than 26 militant groups illegaly [by PA Law as well as International Law] from its soil. Tese groups all state that their ultimate goal is to TOTALLY destroy Israel. LAstly, why do I call it a "Barrier" rather than a "fence" like the majority of posters here? Because in reality less than 30% of the "Barrier" is a wall. Accuracy should be job one when discussing something as contentious as this.
TAE: Yes, HAMAS WAS elected fair and square by the "Palestinians." However, this does not change one iota the fact that HAMAS is an illegal entity under both International and PA Law. Their illegality supercedes their democratic election. Sorry.
As for the nifty pictures of the Berlin Wall, what does it have to do with the "Barrier?" Each had/has a separate function. It is like comparing beans and bananas, both are produce but that is the end of it.
On the "Barrier," for those who have not seen me trot out this data the dozen or more times I have...Violent attacks emanating from areas bordered by the "Barrier" have decresed more than 84%, deaths have decreased by more than 96%. That is the function of the "Barrier," not to punish anyone. Of course it would not be at all neccessary, and will most likely be torn down, once the PA effectively manages to rein in the more than 26 militant groups illegaly [by PA Law as well as International Law] from its soil. Tese groups all state that their ultimate goal is to TOTALLY destroy Israel. LAstly, why do I call it a "Barrier" rather than a "fence" like the majority of posters here? Because in reality less than 30% of the "Barrier" is a wall. Accuracy should be job one when discussing something as contentious as this.
TAE: Yes, HAMAS WAS elected fair and square by the "Palestinians." However, this does not change one iota the fact that HAMAS is an illegal entity under both International and PA Law. Their illegality supercedes their democratic election. Sorry.
As for the nifty pictures of the Berlin Wall, what does it have to do with the "Barrier?" Each had/has a separate function. It is like comparing beans and bananas, both are produce but that is the end of it.
Guns: Yes, terrorism is terrorism, is terrorism. Sadly, people never realise the hurt that their support of such murderous charlatans brings unless it backfires directly on them. I hope that people like Moono, Cemerty, and Grandma never have to spend an afternoon scraping infant brain matter off of a street corner. I hope that they never have to wonder if the tram they have boarded is about to blow sky high. Here in cyberland it is oh so easy to say whatever pops into one's mind without the slightest inkling of reality.
Fully: Israel should buckle under because the UN says so? You mean the same UN that revamped its Human Rights wing and in 6 months has managed just 7 official reports, 6 of which blast Israel and one which blames all sides in Dafur? Sure, maybe. Or is it the UN whose UNIFIL aided and abetted in the murder, by Hezbollah, of two young Israeli soldiers who were snatched [sounds familiar, right?] from the Israeli side of the border while on patrol? Hmmmmm, maybe. OR is the UN whose Observers illegaly vacated Sinai in 56 at the whims of a madman? Yeah, I love U Thant as well but sorry, it won't fly.
Bendeus: Do you know the difference between a General Assembly and a Security Council Resolution? I am asking because it is not clear that you do. Israel is faced with a slew of the former, and as you probably know, is not bound to honour them because they are nothing more than briefs. the latter are not a problem. Israel obeyed the last one, still waiting for Lebanon to catch up.
"How should the 'Palestinian' convince anyone of anything?" The only thing they have to do is disarm the 26 odd militant groups operating in their controlled lands. Once that is accomplished it is downhill. Yet, with a smirk they claim to want coexistence while shouting hudna in speeches and Friday sermons.They need only convince themselves that they have the same responsibilities of any other entity seeking national sovereignity. Namely, they need to start acting like a nation and not a street gang.
"To continue their deadly expansion of their lebensraum." First, the Nazi innuendos are so 90ish. Can't you future anarchists come up with something a tad bit more entertaining? Secondly, how do you define expansionism? Is it perhaps what occurrs when Gaza is given to them? Or is it what happens when almost all of the "West Bank" is going to be given to them, with a tiny bit of Israel to offset the single percentage not given? See, that expansionist nonsense imploded when Gaza left Israeli hands...
"Extrajudicially killing them..." WRONG. It is not "extrajudicial" since each objective is given a full trial with representation, albeit in absentia. Israel would much rather have the PA hand them over for trial and sentence them to a long, long time in prison...or even have the PA try them and do the same but we both [or one hopes you do] know that does not happen and will not happen unless "Palestinian" society undergoes a huge transformation. So...Israel is left with extracting justice and protecting its people by whatever means the "Palestinians" leave them.
"Moono is very thorough with his sourcing and links." Yes, all sources and links that magically agree with his/her mode of thought. The only Israeli source Moono avails him/herself to is "Ha'aretz" and that is a leftist mouthpiece. If you hope to have a well rounded opinion you need to expose yourself to other ways of looking at things. If you only utilise sources that think like you, what is there to talk about?
Fully: Israel should buckle under because the UN says so? You mean the same UN that revamped its Human Rights wing and in 6 months has managed just 7 official reports, 6 of which blast Israel and one which blames all sides in Dafur? Sure, maybe. Or is it the UN whose UNIFIL aided and abetted in the murder, by Hezbollah, of two young Israeli soldiers who were snatched [sounds familiar, right?] from the Israeli side of the border while on patrol? Hmmmmm, maybe. OR is the UN whose Observers illegaly vacated Sinai in 56 at the whims of a madman? Yeah, I love U Thant as well but sorry, it won't fly.
Bendeus: Do you know the difference between a General Assembly and a Security Council Resolution? I am asking because it is not clear that you do. Israel is faced with a slew of the former, and as you probably know, is not bound to honour them because they are nothing more than briefs. the latter are not a problem. Israel obeyed the last one, still waiting for Lebanon to catch up.
"How should the 'Palestinian' convince anyone of anything?" The only thing they have to do is disarm the 26 odd militant groups operating in their controlled lands. Once that is accomplished it is downhill. Yet, with a smirk they claim to want coexistence while shouting hudna in speeches and Friday sermons.They need only convince themselves that they have the same responsibilities of any other entity seeking national sovereignity. Namely, they need to start acting like a nation and not a street gang.
"To continue their deadly expansion of their lebensraum." First, the Nazi innuendos are so 90ish. Can't you future anarchists come up with something a tad bit more entertaining? Secondly, how do you define expansionism? Is it perhaps what occurrs when Gaza is given to them? Or is it what happens when almost all of the "West Bank" is going to be given to them, with a tiny bit of Israel to offset the single percentage not given? See, that expansionist nonsense imploded when Gaza left Israeli hands...
"Extrajudicially killing them..." WRONG. It is not "extrajudicial" since each objective is given a full trial with representation, albeit in absentia. Israel would much rather have the PA hand them over for trial and sentence them to a long, long time in prison...or even have the PA try them and do the same but we both [or one hopes you do] know that does not happen and will not happen unless "Palestinian" society undergoes a huge transformation. So...Israel is left with extracting justice and protecting its people by whatever means the "Palestinians" leave them.
"Moono is very thorough with his sourcing and links." Yes, all sources and links that magically agree with his/her mode of thought. The only Israeli source Moono avails him/herself to is "Ha'aretz" and that is a leftist mouthpiece. If you hope to have a well rounded opinion you need to expose yourself to other ways of looking at things. If you only utilise sources that think like you, what is there to talk about?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
KeyboardJockey said:
are you ever going to answer my question KJ or continue this nonsense of bradnign anyone who disagrees with the current acts of the islreali state in some way judeophobic.
Admitdly Moono can be a bit rabid at times but with good bloody reason...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
oi you as wellrachamim18 said:
we are still all waiting
in case you'd forgotten we have not...
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=5402882&postcount=90
so get on with it son...
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
speaking of which have isreal released the two doctors taken in an illegal incursion into gaza which preiptiated the whole thing yet... ... we can play this game for a long time now be a good chap and answer the questions put to you or will you sulk off the thread again sheepishly ...rachamim18 said:
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
rachamim18 said:
Well I do believe that you have actually, so stop obfuscating and provide me with what has been asked of you several times.
Just to reiterate:
Provide me with proof that the ISM leadership admitted to doctoring photos of rachel corrie.
Evidence please that Captain "R" sucessfully sued Uvda-and the trial is over.
The producers of Uvda in that same court case admitted their show on Captain "R" was 'pure fantasy'
Three simple questions....since you made the claims you should be able to back them up easily? If not am I to take it you cannot....because it's looking that way.
Publicly retract rachamim-it's all you have left now.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
rachamim18 said:
So you categorically deny that the wall is being used to carve out a greater Israel, which will form the borders of your state when the final settlement is bullied out of the exhausted, cowed Palestinians, then? I have no doubt that the wall has prevented attacks. The only problem iwith your argument is that it's built IN PALESTINE. You've built a wall in another's country to stop them attacking you for occupying their country. If you maybe withdrew your troops and colonists back to your own country (pre 1967 borders) you might find there to be little need for your....ahem....barrier.
Have you ever discussed how your country was instrumental in supporting the setup and growth of Hamas in its early days as a counterweight to the PLO and how that organisation then grew beyond you and acquired a mind of its own? No. Thought not.
Except for the fact that both were designed to stop the occupants of a country accessing another part of their own land. No similarities at all, then.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Yes I do, Rachmamim. One could clearly be said to represent the will of the global community, the other the will of the nuclear powers of the cold war era. The latter is skewed in favour of Israel due to the fact that America always votes down motions denouncing or criticising Israeli behaviour and Britain, to my shame, usually abstains. As for Lebanon...how many cluster bombs did you drop on those Lebanese civilians in the hours before the ceasefire came into effect. Don't even try to feed me crap on Israel obeying anything. Israel obeys itself and America. Period.
That's right. They need to meekly accept the occupation and theft of their lands and hope that the nice Israelis give them a bit back out of the goodness of their hearts. Violence is the only bargaining chip they have. Disarming their militant groups will merely hasten the end of Palestine as an entity of any description.
When a country steals land from another in order to house an expanding population I feel that the parallel is entirely fair to draw. Can't you Zionist stooges try and be a bit more grounded in reality and history?
Expansionism? No, that's right, there's no expansionism.
Israel's policy of targeted killings neatly reinforces your claim that it would much rather have them handed over for a (no doubt) fair trial and lenghty imprisonment.
"
Land of blind? One eyed men?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
Bendeus pelase do not feed the troll until it has answer the questions much as it's continued presence is an impostition and it relies us all...
We have to place a untied front and allow this terrorist no tenuer here, to enguage him in his trolling is sadly to distrcat away fromt heir continued refuseal to answer the points put to it. and in doing so seeks to tie up decent posters with fruitless engaugments...
we do al have to cease engaguement with this entitiy until such time as it is ready to answer the questios placed before it. This sending of it to coventry will i hope result in a poster who will be willing to enguage on more reasonable terms this of it as the collective punshing if you will.
If it has nothing sensible to say then ignore it until it attempts comunication at a reasonable level...
think naughty step and tempestious child...
we should not be giving it the attention it's demanding....
We have to place a untied front and allow this terrorist no tenuer here, to enguage him in his trolling is sadly to distrcat away fromt heir continued refuseal to answer the points put to it. and in doing so seeks to tie up decent posters with fruitless engaugments...
we do al have to cease engaguement with this entitiy until such time as it is ready to answer the questios placed before it. This sending of it to coventry will i hope result in a poster who will be willing to enguage on more reasonable terms this of it as the collective punshing if you will.
If it has nothing sensible to say then ignore it until it attempts comunication at a reasonable level...
think naughty step and tempestious child...
we should not be giving it the attention it's demanding....
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
no probs chap hope you understand that it's not a telling you off more a this particular poster is more trouble than it's worth thing stratigist with out the overt nastyness mor ethe maleverlent undertones and flip flopping which makes for equally poor debate and certainly factualyl inaccurate statments...bendeus said:
The not very wise men from the west
http://www.openbethlehem.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=110&Itemid=17
http://www.openbethlehem.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=110&Itemid=17
FruitandNut
New Member
Oh, little town of Bethlehem how still we see thee lie - oh, it's because everyone has left!
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