"The slow death of the Real Job is pulling society apart"

[dennisr]

If you don't cut these costs then your competitor will and you will be out of a job.

And if you expect me and my friends to live like those poor bastards in Guatemala - then you better start buying some weopons - because, having nothing to loose, i would be gunning for you and yours if that was the score.

I imagine - so would a lot of folk on these boards

 

[Gmart]

If you don't like the wage rate you are being offered then get another job.

If your job is not a living wage, ie you can't live on it then maybe your costs of living are too high, or you need to retrain to get a job which pays more. If you can't do that then welcome to the poverty trap which not working at school dropped you into.

 

[kyser_soze]

Someone on the left cheering for a Thacther victory doesn't take too much brains to work out why - more oppression=more chance of solidarity, workers connecting with each other cos it's all getting much worse blah blah blah...

 

[dennisr]

If you don't like the wage rate you are being offered then get another job.

If your job is not a living wage, ie you can't live on it then maybe your costs of living are too high, or you need to retrain to get a job which pays more. If you can't do that then welcome to the poverty trap which not working at school dropped you into.

Thats your 'answer' to the problem created by the mechinisms by which the system operates? - so no answers then from a defender of capitalist idiocy (sorry 'economics').

Ahhh, so it would be 'my fault' as a individual' and a (point the finger...) lazy individual at that- how fecking original a target to blame is that?

Personally, i doing fine - I have retrained at least 5 times now - but thanks for the 'concern' (far from 'lazy', so please don't make the usual next mistake of assuming I am in some way 'jealous' of other wealth - plenty of my own mate - its nowt personal its simply the idiocy you use to defend your position).

People don't half talk out of their arseholes sometimes. Are you a journalist Gsmart, given the highly original (if utterly wrongheaded) material you are coming out with.

 

[dennisr]

If you are a business

I'm not a 'business' Gsmart, neither are you - I am a human being

 

[Gmart]

I'm not a 'business' Gsmart, neither are you - I am a human being

If you chose to be an unskilled worker when you have the opportunity to train as something that the community might actually want and pay you well for thenyou would be a fool. But you know this becoz you have retrained 5 times (good for you).

Meanwhile people who start up businesses are indeed individuals, and they provide jobs for a vast number of people.

The world is the way it is. You may as well complain about winter. That's just the way it is. Sitting there and complaining about how unfair it isand how you should be able to sit there and do whatever you want is just childish. And for you to attack me for pointing out some of the facts of life is just useless.

 

[Gmart]

I'm obviously NOT talking out of my arsehole OR wrongheaded, though you can resort to that Ad Hominem if it makes you feel better...

 

[_angel_]

If you chose to be an unskilled worker when you have the opportunity to train as something that the community might actually want and pay you well for thenyou would be a fool. But you know this becoz you have retrained 5 times (good for you).

Meanwhile people who start up businesses are indeed individuals, and they provide jobs for a vast number of people.

The world is the way it is. You may as well complain about winter. That's just the way it is. Sitting there and complaining about how unfair it isand how you should be able to sit there and do whatever you want is just childish. And for you to attack me for pointing out some of the facts of life is just useless.

You really know nothing at all do you?

 

[dennisr]

If you chose to be an unskilled worker when you have the opportunity to train as something that the community might actually want and pay you well for thenyou would be a fool. But you know this becoz you have retrained 5 times (good for you).

Meanwhile people who start up businesses are indeed individuals, and they provide jobs for a vast number of people.

The world is the way it is. You may as well complain about winter. That's just the way it is. Sitting there and complaining about how unfair it isand how you should be able to sit there and do whatever you want is just childish. And for you to attack me for pointing out some of the facts of life is just useless.

I am not an unskilled worker

Concern for the conditions resulting from the unequal distribution of wealth is not 'sitting there and complaining', let alone 'being childish'. These conditions have consequences - even for a smug cunt like you.

"facts of life" ? - you mean your CSE Economics crap above? - my, how insightful that was. your version of economics does not occur in a vacuam.

So, lets summarise G"smart"s "fact of life":

you have to accept lower wages so your boss can be more competitive, if you do not it is because you are uneducated or lazy


hey, thanks for the "insight" you wanker

 

[tarannau]

So thats what the employers would want here, in their 'perfect' world - 1p in the £1 wages. A proper banana republic (or monarchy - does not matter really). There is a contradiction in all this though - if our wages are low how do we buy their products? (ie how do they get their profits from sales of their products)

That's a total logical fallacy. Notwithstanding the lack of logic, isn't this a perfect example why we in Blighty and the developed world have achieved such comparatively high standards of living - we've nearly always sought to exploit the raw materials of other countries, paying a pittance to the source. We add hefty mark ups for processing and 'adding value' throughout the process, paying for our far more comfortable Western lifestyles.

There seems to be this ideal that if we cut ourselves off from the rest of the world that we'll somehow improve the lot of the working classes. It won't - we'll end up with a uncompetitive economy with higher priced goods and almost certainly less choice. The Tories or some unfettered free market party will then end up walking the next election.

We're no longer an imperial power, able to dictate our terms to the colonies and reap the rewards. Big business now takes that role - we've the slightly unedifying choice of accepting that if we're committed to tackling global inequality then we're likely to receive a smaller slice of the pie, or pulling up the drawbridge and desperately, Canute style, trying to protect our priveleged position.

 

[dennisr]

I'm obviously NOT talking out of my arsehole OR wrongheaded, though you can resort to that Ad Hominem if it makes you feel better...

or CSEW Economics regurgatated so as to legitimise your own smug position? (ad hominem...)

You realise reality will come and bite you on the arse one day don't you?

and don't expect 'wingers' like me to give a flying feck when they do (although you will probably expect us to - elements of business are already expecting us to bail them out - and the government already is - so much for competition and free market guff)

 

[_angel_]

Here's a thought for Garthews - most of the low paid work is done by women. Does that make all women by your argument 'thick' 'unskilled' and 'lazy' by default? Or maybe people are doing those jobs because they have to work part time/ shift work around a family. And part time jobs always finish bottom of the heap pay and benefits wise.

 

[dennisr]

We're no longer an imperial power, able to dictate our terms to the colonies and reap the rewards. Big business now takes that role - we've the slightly unedifying choice of accepting that if we're committed to tackling global inequality then we're likely to receive a smaller slice of the pie, or pulling up the drawbridge and desperately, Canute style, trying to protect our priveleged position.

Right so the liberal version of Gsmart - "you should take a pay cut to alleviate world poverty" - like feck will out wage cut result in more in the other fellas (corrected by angel -more probably 'lasses'...) pocket - not if it is left in the hands of big business.

ps i would agree with your first point - I was taking Gsmarts own economic 'logic' to its absurd conclusion. Of course noone would be daft enough to cut wages to that level - but the point being made still holds

 

[dennisr]

We're no longer an imperial power, able to dictate our terms to the colonies and reap the rewards

I never had imperial power and neither did you tarannau.

What has that got to do with the price of fish?

 

[Gmart]

Calling me names will always be Ad Hominem and a fallacy no matter how you dress it up. My points are all very valid and you have the opportunity to comment if you wish, or maybe you'd prefer to go off and find some others who are also avoiding reality and complain with them about this arsehole online who just didn't listen/understand anything...

As far as Angel goes, it real depends on whether you have the opportunity or not. If you find yourself in a situation where you simply cannot make headway in your lifeplan, then the government is failing in its aim in giving people the opportunity to make something of themselves, and creating a stable family life etc.

Women have historically not been given a fair crack of the whip. The opportunities have all gone to the men, often from birth!! In recent times this balance has been addressed, but only partially, and we have further to go.

 

[poster342002]

dennisr,

Now you see the sort of "Gmarthews" attitudes I invariably come up against all the time in real life. I hate to say it, but the vast majority of people out there hold his sort of views.

 

[Gmart]

There will always be people who are supported by the state because there is no alternative to this. We can suggest that Adult Education should be better funded (for example) but even then there will still be some who simply need food and shelter in order to survive. In the olden days (and in developping countries) they die.

It is very sad that women should be affected in this way. The lack of jobs often rebounds onto the children in their care which just doubles up the mistake. We need more jobsharing and we need to persuade business that this would be a good way forward, maybe thru tax breaks?

 

[tarannau]

I never had imperial power and neither did you tarannau.

What has that got to do with the price of fish?

We're only a generation or two away from the glory days of the commonwealth and all those lovely colonies giving us a cheap source of labour and raw materials. Bit rich to say that we haven't benefitted...

 

[poster342002]

We're only a generation or two away from the glory days of the commonwealth and all those lovely colonies giving us a cheap source of labour and raw materials. Bit rich to say that we haven't benefitted...

I think dennisr was saying that the ruling classes benefited from imperialism, but not the poor in Britain or in the empire's colonies.

 

[Gmart]

Now you see the sort of "Gmarthews" attitudes I invariably come up against all the time in real life. I hate to say it, but the vast majority of people out there hold his sort of views.

I don't like it, but I am a realist. I am not going to dance around getting upset about how unfair everything is. Life IS unfair, but wringing my hands moaning and jumping up and down while going on about how terrible it all is, isn't going to make a jot of difference.

I don't like the logic of modern life, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist. It's preferable to the developing world where life is cheap, short nasty and brutish to paraphrase Hobbes.

My first instinct is to try and solve the problem if I can. For example with the adoption of a (the European?) Constitution which enshrines the right to unionise.

It would be no use doing this if another country decided NOT to have this right, because then this country would get all the business and jobs. Thus we might not LIKE the EU, but cooperation is our only course.

Meanwhile the safety nets of the NHS, benefits and education all have to be maintained and equality of opportunity needs to be aimed at (and hopefully afforded).

But I don't have time for people who are saying that we should simply force businesses to become less competitive, because that would simply destroy the businesses which employ the people we already employ (and feeds their families).

 

[glenquagmire]

I don't like it, but I am a realist. I am not going to dance around getting upset about how unfair everything is. Life IS unfair, but wringing my hands moaning and jumping up and down while going on about how terrible it all is, isn't going to make a jot of difference.

A fine example of a false choice being presented - classic rhetorical tool.

"Either embrace capitalism or wring your hands moaning and jumping up and down"

 

[Gmart]

It's not a choice it's just what we have. Capitalism is a terrible system, but if you believe in freedom, then that's the system you get.

And I don't like it either, it is vastly unfair to huge numbers of people, I just don't go on about it, I would prefer to find some solutions to mitigate the harsher effects.

 

[glenquagmire]

if you believe in freedom, then that's the system you get

Eh?

 

[poster342002]

Capitalism is a terrible system, but if you believe in freedom, then that's the system you get.

So what do you call the pure capitalist regime of Pinochet, then?

 

[Gmart]

So what do you call the pure capitalist regime of Pinochet, then?

A capitalist system with no respect for human rights.

TBH what was the point of that post? Capitalism in the UK has at least 4 safety nets introduced to prevent the abuse of the poor by the rich, which is what would happen if capitalism was allowed to be unregulated.

 

[poster342002]

A capitalist system with no respect for human rights.

TBH what was the point of that post? Capitalism in the UK has at least 4 safety nets introduced to prevent the abuse of the poor by the rich, which is what would happen if capitalism was allowed to be unregulated.

The point was that you said words to the effect that capitalism is what you get if you believe in freedom. Pinochet's regime shows this clearly isn't the case.

 

[dash_two]

John Harris's article quoted in the OP made interesting reading.

The contraction of 'real jobs' won't have the same impact throughout the life cycle. Instead we could see a situation develop where many people don't manage to land a 'real job' until middle age.

 

[Gmart]

The point was that you said words to the effect that capitalism is what you get if you believe in freedom. Pinochet's regime shows this clearly isn't the case.

Really? How so?

 

[poster342002]

Really? How so?

Becsause there wasn't a great deal of freedom under Pinochet's regime.

 

[poster342002]

John Harris's article quoted in the OP made interesting reading.

The contraction of 'real jobs' won't have the same impact throughout the life cycle. Instead we could see a situation develop where many people don't manage to land a 'real job' until middle age.

And yet those same people are being told they must save money for their pension ann buy their own house etc etc. How can they possibly do this without permanent, stable employment?