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The Slits! (trailblazed punk for girls, apparently)

It must be so fucking exhausting being the outspoken vanguard for Women In Music but there's something so hard about the women in punk (that I know about - I'm aware my knowledge is limited) that it kind of echoes the women in boardrooms cliché of becoming a ballbreaker to take part in a men's game.

Don't think the Slits were ever concerned with presenting themselves as "hard", confrontational certainly, but in a very "feminine" way- even down to the band/LP tiltles.

Also don't think the very wonderful Poly Styrene could really be described as "hard"...
 
i thought that book was rubbish tbh, it annoyed me intensely.

i wasn't that impressed with it either. didn't throbbing gristle only get a couple of pages? whetever one may think of them, i don't really see how anyone can dispute they were just a bit more 'influential' than Scritti Politti.

:confused:
 
oh yea, you're right. There was some seminal act i recall thinking received paltry coverage compared to sundry other two-bit spoon players who got lauded like the pope bigs up god.
 
well it does reflect Reynolds' own take on what's important - and I agree that Scritti aren't, really, except for the theorising which always gives Reynolds a hard on - but then he never claimed it was some kind of objective overview.

By the way, did you ever read England's Hidden Reverse?
 
I always much preferred The Raincoats. Partly musically. But mostly because they were all such bloody nice people.

I used to hand out with one of them because she was married to our label manager at Fresh records.

Can't remember her name, but she was very nice.

I also remember Nirvana mentioning them in the IN Utero sleeve.
 
The whole women in music thing is interesting. It actually goes way back. There's a repeated pattern of amazingly strong woman makes her mark in music, a few more strong women get a chance to shine on the back of that, then the music biz closes ranks again and it's back to pop tarts for breakfast, dinner and tea.

For a bunch of people who like to claim to be liberal and progressive, generally (male) musicians are actually pretty sexist by and large. Things are better than they were half a century ago, but there is still one hell of a long way to go, and I don't see any sign of the music industry being any more willing to really treat women as genuine equals any more than they have in the past. All that's changed is that women in music now have many more good examples and are less willing to be treated like decorations than they used to be.

Punk didn't help all that much. Siouxsie, Jordan, and especially Debbie Harry (though Blondie weren't really punk) very much played on being a different and more powerful form of eye candy. Polly Styrene, Lora Logic, Pauline Murray, and Gaye Advert, rarely got much of a chance to present themselves to the world as anything other than token women when it came to any media attention. Including in most of the fanzines.

The problem is getting general acceptance that there really is no reason why any aspect of music should be male dominated. About the only thing that might be relevant is the sheer physical strength aspect that may always mean that more of the roadies shifting heavy kit will always be men. That's about it. Yet there's still often an assumption that the interesting thing about any woman making music is that she's a woman.

The people who have come closest to beating that, as far as I can see, are Tina Weymouth, Gail Ann Dorsey, and Kim Deal. Who all have the advantage that generally women are actually better bass guitarists than men (where's the tongue in cheek smilie when I need it?).
 
I am pretty fascinated by the girls in punk mind - did it empower women or was it bullshit like the hippie movement?
Punk empowered girls, not girls in punk. The fact of being outside the mainstream, having a laugh with your mates, and the feeling that this was your time. Going to gigs, and grinning your head off at how new and exciting it all was and how it felt like a secret society that you could never explain to people who weren't there. That was empowering. :D

The likes of Siouxsie were a bit embarrassing, really. Poly Styrene was more my style, and the Slits were also very popular with most of my female friends in 77/78. I thought they were pretty much over by the time the album, and the cover that made them famous, came out. By then, Pauline Black was my new heroine.
 
. . .
Punk didn't help all that much. Siouxsie, Jordan, and especially Debbie Harry (though Blondie weren't really punk) very much played on being a different and more powerful form of eye candy. Polly Styrene, Lora Logic, Pauline Murray, and Gaye Advert, rarely got much of a chance to present themselves to the world as anything other than token women when it came to any media attention. Including in most of the fanzines.
. . .

Sorry mate, but that is so simplistic as to be total bollocks.
 
Punk empowered girls, not girls in punk. The fact of being outside the mainstream, having a laugh with your mates, and the feeling that this was your time. Going to gigs, and grinning your head off at how new and exciting it all was and how it felt like a secret society that you could never explain to people who weren't there. That was empowering. :D

Every youth movement feels like that though surely? What I'm trying to get at is if it changed anything in terms of female roles and perceptions. It's not the first time you had women rocking out - Janis Joplin springs to mind as a forbear and equally would we have Avril Lavigne without the Slits or Poly Styrene? She's the mass marketed creation who masquerades as punk while still selling us the usual crap while she does it - I mean she has a perfume out now ffs!

Did you feel like possibilities for your future were less prescripted because you'd know the freedom of being part of something that didn't give a shit about what you were supposed to be or do?

I don't think I'm expressing myself very well tbh :D
 
tis a good book (thanks for the lend!) -the best bits are the stuff about Zoskia and Diane Rogerson and those mad hairdressers. Much more interesting than David Tibet's evolution... I reckon you'd really like it Chico

SAF were going to do a paperback - dunno if it's still happening but obviously worth flogging the hardback before it comes out.

I met Keenan earlier this year and he said he was working on a book about Ramleh and Skullflower et al which could be great but I fear it will focus on the later stuff which I am less bothered about.
 
tis a good book (thanks for the lend!) -the best bits are the stuff about Zoskia and Diane Rogerson and those mad hairdressers. Much more interesting than David Tibet's evolution... I reckon you'd really like it Chico

SAF were going to do a paperback - dunno if it's still happening but obviously worth flogging the hardback before it comes out.

I met Keenan earlier this year and he said he was working on a book about Ramleh and Skullflower et al which could be great but I fear it will focus on the later stuff which I am less bothered about.

those mad hairdressers - you mean that place that was in kensington market? fuck!! can't remember the neme...penetration hairdressers or something. had flyers with hindley + brady on them... used to have flyers advertising whitehouse gigs up all over the place? i used to get my hair there when i was about 14/15...mainly because there was a really hot girl (spanish? italian?) there who had black bobbed hair who i hoped would lock up shop & molest me one day, but, alas, never did :(

whetever you'd ask for you'd always end up looking like either Blitza Bartgeld or a member of Hitler Youth - hence we used to call it "the nazi hairdressers". also notable in that i saw i think the first people i had ever seen with...SHAVEN HEADS :eek::eek: there which at the time seemed about as weird as if they had steel bolts through stuck them. strange how times change.

this will of course be a singularly irrelevant posting if you mean a completely different hairdressers. :rolleyes:

was Diane Rogerson in that FistFuck band - sure i recognise the name? Always wanted to hear that LP of their Action space show that came out a while back but it was one of those ltd edition/silly money things only weird boys buy.

must say tho i would doubt there's be enough people really into ramleh + skullflower to warrant a whole book about them
 
yes - that hairdressers. :D

to be honest I never knew anything about them before I read the book - used to enjoy going to ken market for that artificial eye stall that did all the ptv tapes and that. and the goth girls, of course. but I think that was after the period we are talking about.

Yeah rogerson was in fistfuck and did some stuff with NWW. She's interesting.

I think you are right about the limited scope for a book on ramleh et al but Keenan is well into championing the underdog and people who release 39 copies of something on cassette, so fair play to him.
 
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