The Russian Revolution in Colour
- Thread starter gawkrodger
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butchersapron
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They're footnoted and refer to Russian sources - because they come from the Russian archives and studies, as i've already told you twice.cockneyrebel said:
butchersapron
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Now i'm leaving this - and i really am this time. What a waste of time.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Butchers I'm asking three simple Qs.
What were the sources and footnotes indicating where Getzler got his info from?
If 1000s of the Kronstadt sailors left Kronstadt during the civil war, as your links says, who replaced them in the interim?
The 94% figure is about two ships. Was there info on the rest of Kronstadt, which covers a lot more people.
What were the sources and footnotes indicating where Getzler got his info from?
If 1000s of the Kronstadt sailors left Kronstadt during the civil war, as your links says, who replaced them in the interim?
The 94% figure is about two ships. Was there info on the rest of Kronstadt, which covers a lot more people.
cockneyrebel
New Member
So where can I see these footnotes. Are they in English? Have you or anyone else checked them out at all?
Where can I get a copy of Getzler's book?
butchersapron
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1) I've not got the book here. But i've told you what and where they refer to 3 times now.
2) If they did they were often not replaced as there work was highly skilled and there was a lack of resources to train new recruits. The quote you keep throwing at me itself says:
"We now know that, given the war-time difficulties of training new people in the technical skills required in Russia's ultra-modern battleships, very few replacements had been sent to Kronstadt to take the place of the dead and injured sailors.... of the approximately 10,000 recruits who were supposed to be trained to replenish the Kronstadt garrison, only a few more than 1,000 had arrived by the end of 1920, and those had been stationed not in Kronstadt, but in Petrograd, where they were supposed to be trained.".
edit: and more to the point, this quote you are asking about:
"by the end of 1919 thousands of veteran sailors, who had served on many fronts of the civil war and in the administrative network of the expanding Soviet state, had returned to the Baltic Fleet and to Kronstadt, most by way of remobilisation"
refers to 1919 not 1921! It's also evidence that the veteran sailors did actually return and take up their old positions prior to 1921 and so the composition of the base refelected that - not the exact opposite as you seem to think!
3) How many ships do you think there were?
2) If they did they were often not replaced as there work was highly skilled and there was a lack of resources to train new recruits. The quote you keep throwing at me itself says:
"We now know that, given the war-time difficulties of training new people in the technical skills required in Russia's ultra-modern battleships, very few replacements had been sent to Kronstadt to take the place of the dead and injured sailors.... of the approximately 10,000 recruits who were supposed to be trained to replenish the Kronstadt garrison, only a few more than 1,000 had arrived by the end of 1920, and those had been stationed not in Kronstadt, but in Petrograd, where they were supposed to be trained.".
edit: and more to the point, this quote you are asking about:
"by the end of 1919 thousands of veteran sailors, who had served on many fronts of the civil war and in the administrative network of the expanding Soviet state, had returned to the Baltic Fleet and to Kronstadt, most by way of remobilisation"
refers to 1919 not 1921! It's also evidence that the veteran sailors did actually return and take up their old positions prior to 1921 and so the composition of the base refelected that - not the exact opposite as you seem to think!
3) How many ships do you think there were?
cockneyrebel
New Member
1) Cheers Matt, I'll get a copy. Butchers all you've told me is that they come from Russian archives. Not very specific, I think you'll agree! But once I get the book I can look in more detail.
2) Your link says that 1000s of sailors went to fight on the front. Getzler says there were 10-12,000 sailors. Now firstly if none of them were replaced, how did the navy function in the interim, considering what you say about it being vital? Secondly, as said, given the death rates in the rest of Russia and they must have been even worse on the front lines, combinded with battle weariness, it has to be questionable how many could have returned.
3) There were quite a lot of ships according to the link I put up earlier. And also the support staff, workers in Kronstadt etc
Also it's interesting that the anarchists never increased their vote beyond 5% in the soviet.
2) Your link says that 1000s of sailors went to fight on the front. Getzler says there were 10-12,000 sailors. Now firstly if none of them were replaced, how did the navy function in the interim, considering what you say about it being vital? Secondly, as said, given the death rates in the rest of Russia and they must have been even worse on the front lines, combinded with battle weariness, it has to be questionable how many could have returned.
3) There were quite a lot of ships according to the link I put up earlier. And also the support staff, workers in Kronstadt etc
Also it's interesting that the anarchists never increased their vote beyond 5% in the soviet.
butchersapron
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Read the rest of that review Matt...
Getzler describes this revolt as the Kronstadters' desperate attempt to restore their Socialist democracy of 1917. His analysis of the continuity between the 1917 Revolution and the 1921 mutiny (both in terms of ideology and personnel) demolishes the Bolsheviks' dogmatic interpretations of the revolt and their claims that the Kronstadt of 1917 - the 'pride and glory of the Russian Revolution' - was not the same as the 'traitorous and counterrevolutionary' Kronstadt of 1921. Those who are looking for a more detailed history of the mutiny itself would do well to consult Paul Avrich's "Kronstadt, 1921."
Getzler describes this revolt as the Kronstadters' desperate attempt to restore their Socialist democracy of 1917. His analysis of the continuity between the 1917 Revolution and the 1921 mutiny (both in terms of ideology and personnel) demolishes the Bolsheviks' dogmatic interpretations of the revolt and their claims that the Kronstadt of 1917 - the 'pride and glory of the Russian Revolution' - was not the same as the 'traitorous and counterrevolutionary' Kronstadt of 1921. Those who are looking for a more detailed history of the mutiny itself would do well to consult Paul Avrich's "Kronstadt, 1921."
butchersapron
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cockneyrebel said:
What does this say:
"We now know that, given the war-time difficulties of training new people in the technical skills required in Russia's ultra-modern battleships, very few replacements had been sent to Kronstadt to take the place of the dead and injured sailors.... of the approximately 10,000 recruits who were supposed to be trained to replenish the Kronstadt garrison, only a few more than 1,000 had arrived by the end of 1920, and those had been stationed not in Kronstadt, but in Petrograd, where they were supposed to be trained.".
But, you use Getzler's book to 'prove' Trotsky and Trotskyists wrong. But apparently he complained about the lack of access to archives. But you had said, "because they come from the Russian archives". And Avrich's book claims lots of things that actually support our view.
cockneyrebel
New Member
But I'm questioning what it says butchers, not accepting it on face value (and Matt's comment about his lack of access to archives is interesting). Is the bloke still alive, wouldn't he want to do a re-write now there is more access available. And what are Getzler's politics?
What I'm saying abotu the replacements is this.
Your link accepts that out of the 10,000-12,000 sailors, thousands went and faught at the front. Now I've two points.
1) Are we meant to believe that considering the death and injury rates on the front line, combined with battle weariness, that a big percentage of these returned to Kronstadt.
2) How did the navy function in the interim if 1000s of the sailors left to fight on the front line, considering how vital it was.
What I'm saying abotu the replacements is this.
Your link accepts that out of the 10,000-12,000 sailors, thousands went and faught at the front. Now I've two points.
1) Are we meant to believe that considering the death and injury rates on the front line, combined with battle weariness, that a big percentage of these returned to Kronstadt.
2) How did the navy function in the interim if 1000s of the sailors left to fight on the front line, considering how vital it was.
butchersapron
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Tell me who didn't have problems accessing the Russian archives in 1983. Nonetheless he managed to get the figures, as did Ewen Maldsley in anothe academic work. And i use the book to try and get a clearer piocture of what happened - it's you two who are seeking to make polemical points here - i've not even mentioned Trotsky, Trotskyists or Bolsheviks.mattkidd12 said:
butchersapron
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Oh for fucks sake, you're making up your argument before reading a damn thing on the subject you're offering your opinion on. This is just political hackery of the crudest sort.cockneyrebel said:
butchersapron
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Now fuck off the pair of you 
cockneyrebel
New Member
I haven't read the book. I'll get a copy. I have however read books about Kronstadt. However this aside I'm asking a couple of simple Qs that seem to not fit into the information you've provided so far.
Can people only ask Qs if they've read the book?
Can people only ask Qs if they've read the book?
butchersapron
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And they've been answered. But you're not doing that, you're saying it's bollocks.
'Man..on the moon? I don't think so, i mean look how far away it is, and takes me ages just to get to town - no, i don't really think so'.
'Man..on the moon? I don't think so, i mean look how far away it is, and takes me ages just to get to town - no, i don't really think so'.
..rednblack said:eh?
when did he do that then?
(and no - i'm not a leninist)
if you don`t already know lenin was a mass murderer then is there any point in explaining it?.
Just a couple of quotes from Paul Avrich's book -
"there can be little doubt that during the civil war years a large turnover had indeed taken place within the Baltic Fleet, and that many of the old-timers had bee replaced by conscripts from the rural districts who brought with them the deeply felt discontents of the Russian peasantry". He also goes on to claim that over 3/4 of the Kronstadt 'rebels' were peasants.
the Krondstadt program paid little attention to questions affecting the industrial proletariat...[they had an] overiding preoccupation with the needs of the peasant and small producer
"there can be little doubt that during the civil war years a large turnover had indeed taken place within the Baltic Fleet, and that many of the old-timers had bee replaced by conscripts from the rural districts who brought with them the deeply felt discontents of the Russian peasantry". He also goes on to claim that over 3/4 of the Kronstadt 'rebels' were peasants.
the Krondstadt program paid little attention to questions affecting the industrial proletariat...[they had an] overiding preoccupation with the needs of the peasant and small producer
butchersapron
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Right, give me the page number. You really do want to be careful endorsing that book Matt because it'll come right back and bite yourn arse.mattkidd12 said:
I don't know the page numbers - I wrote it on another webboard using the source. The article I read it from was a review, which used long quotes from the book, but no page numbers. Have to dig it out yourself I am afraid!
Another quote from the book -
"By 1921, according to official figures, more than 3/4 of the sailors were of peasant origin, a substantially higher proportion than in 1917, when industrial workers from Petrograd area made up a sizeable part of the fleet."
Another quote from the book -
"By 1921, according to official figures, more than 3/4 of the sailors were of peasant origin, a substantially higher proportion than in 1917, when industrial workers from Petrograd area made up a sizeable part of the fleet."
cockneyrebel
New Member
Butchers it's just not the case that:
Copy and paste answers to those two Qs if they have been answered. All you've done is kept using the same quote.
Firstly it doesn't explain how the navy would have been able to function in the interim if 1000s out of 10-12,000 sailors had left and not been replaced.
Secondly it doesn't explain how most of these 1000s of soldiers managed to come back when death and injury rates on the front line were so high and taking into account battle weariness. Saying they were "elite" is just not an answer. How was it miraculously the case that the Kronstadt sailors could have returned in such large numbers, considering what was going on.
Interesting quotes by Matt if they turn out to be right.
Copy and paste answers to those two Qs if they have been answered. All you've done is kept using the same quote.
Firstly it doesn't explain how the navy would have been able to function in the interim if 1000s out of 10-12,000 sailors had left and not been replaced.
Secondly it doesn't explain how most of these 1000s of soldiers managed to come back when death and injury rates on the front line were so high and taking into account battle weariness. Saying they were "elite" is just not an answer. How was it miraculously the case that the Kronstadt sailors could have returned in such large numbers, considering what was going on.
Interesting quotes by Matt if they turn out to be right.
butchersapron
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Nope not good enough i'm afraid - i need to know the context, if he was quoting someone else etc.mattkidd12 said:
cockneyrebel
New Member
The last quote Matt uses comes from p89-92.
cockneyrebel
New Member
So was the first quote. p89-92
I know because I'm the oracle
I know because I'm the oracle
butchersapron
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cockneyrebel said:
Yeah, you're right - the Russian navy collapsed in the middle of the civil war didn't it? Pity no one noticed.
It doesn't have to explain how they arrived back, and a few thouand people getting to Petrograd is not really an amazing feat of logistics is it? I've already offered a suggestion why those already military trained, in fact who are in fact elite sailors might have a lower death rate then conscripted peasants and rural workers with zero military experience and very little or no training and litle or no zeal to fight (sse the desertion rates in the RA)
cockneyrebel
New Member
But what I'm saying is that to keep the navy going presumably people had to be replaced. Or would 1000s of sailors out of 10-12,000 personnel not make any difference.
And while trained troops might have a lower death rate, I'd question how many of them would make it back from the front line considering the death rates across Russia. Elite troops in the second world war, for instance, still got massacred on the front lines.
And while trained troops might have a lower death rate, I'd question how many of them would make it back from the front line considering the death rates across Russia. Elite troops in the second world war, for instance, still got massacred on the front lines.
butchersapron
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But they weren't!cockneyrebel said:
"We now know that, given the war-time difficulties of training new people in the technical skills required in Russia's ultra-modern battleships, very few replacements had been sent to Kronstadt to take the place of the dead and injured sailors.... of the approximately 10,000 recruits who were supposed to be trained to replenish the Kronstadt garrison, only a few more than 1,000 had arrived by the end of 1920, and those had been stationed not in Kronstadt, but in Petrograd, where they were supposed to be trained.".
4th or 5th time.
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