The Russian notion of "sovereign democracy"

[Fullyplumped]

Nearby, there was a poster depicting an intercontinental ballistic missile with the slogan: "Let there be sovereign democracy," a reference to the Kremlin's definition of democracy stripped of western influence.​

This is troubling. The Nashi organisation in Russia, which I last heard of for its harassment of the British Ambassador until they were called off by the government, is clearly growing as some sort of Putin Jugend. They are clearly fascist in style, with much harking back to the old USSR - note the .su internet address of their website.

The Russian state is very clearly going down a track that can genuinely be described as fascist.

This Scotsman story shows what's up. But I can't help but feel that their international agenda, to build up Russia militarily as a counter to the west, is something that a lot of people who post here would be very sympathetic towards. Can progressive people really see this as the way forward?

 

[Mallard]

It's interesting to see the medias hysteria about Russia after the British government decided to expel 4 diplomats. This is in contrast to Russia who took no such action when Britain refused to expel and corrupt multi-millionaire and fraudster or an alleged terrorist or several others. The talk of Russia building her military strength has co-incided with the West's plans to build missile stations next to Russia's borders as part of a 'defence' system.

I'm not a particular fan of Putin but these articles are very one sided. How would some people in Britain of reacted if the French/Belgians desecrated a war memorial?

Let's be objective and remember who started these incidents and whoose media is only reporting one side before patronising the Russians about 'democracy'.

 

[Fullyplumped]

It's interesting to see the medias hysteria about Russia after the British government decided to expel 4 diplomats. This is in contrast to Russia who took no such action when Britain refused to expel and corrupt multi-millionaire and fraudster or an alleged terrorist or several others. The talk of Russia building her military strength has co-incided with the West's plans to build missile stations next to Russia's borders as part of a 'defence' system. I'm not a particular fan of Putin but these articles are very one sided. How would some people in Britain of reacted if the French/Belgians desecrated a war memorial? Let's be objective and remember who started these incidents and whoose media is only reporting one side before patronising the Russians about 'democracy'.

Let's not be beastly to the Russians, in other words.

We can patronise Russia about democracy 'cos we have it and they don't. They are massively rearming, using energy profits, but they're letting their own surplus working class die off. They are rebuilding a militarily aggressive corporate, expansive fascist state. Our media tells all sides of the story, which is why I can tell that there is a problem with a resurgent fascist Russia. Estonia felt their might recently and Ukraine will no doubt get it in the neck soon. They want their empire back!

 

[Mallard]

Let's not be beastly to the Russians, in other words.

We can patronise Russia about democracy 'cos we have it and they don't. They are massively rearming, using energy profits, but they're letting their own surplus working class die off. They are rebuilding a militarily aggressive corporate, expansive fascist state. Our media tells all sides of the story, which is why I can tell that there is a problem with a resurgent fascist Russia. Estonia felt their might recently and Ukraine will no doubt get it in the neck soon. They want their empire back!

As opposed to say Britain and the USA who have bombed and murdered thousands recently? By whose definition are the Russians fascist and we are not? The Estonians give pensions and benefits to their fascists who served during the war. Citizens who served with the soviets do not recieve this.

Russia are no where near the 'most militarily aggressive corporate, expansive fascist state' that accolade is already taken

 

[Andy the Don]

As opposed to say Britain and the USA who have bombed and murdered thousands recently? By whose definition are the Russians fascist and we are not? The Estonians give pensions and benefits to their fascists who served during the war. Citizens who served with the soviets do not recieve this.

I mentioned before the Baltic state citizens who fought for the Waffen SS were mostly nationalists. Remember the Soviets got teh Baltic states through the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, banned their culture. The Indian government give pensions to Indian citizens who fought for the Japanese in the Indian National Army & not to the 3 million plus (the largest volunteer army in WWII) who fought for the British in all fronts during WWII.

 

[Fullyplumped]

As opposed to say Britain and the USA who have bombed and murdered thousands recently? By whose definition are the Russians fascist and we are not? The Estonians give pensions and benefits to their fascists who served during the war. Citizens who served with the soviets do not recieve this.

There's a good definition of fascism in the comments of the Scotsman story at point 11 - by someone in Estonia, as it happens -

Professor Robert O. Paxton, formerly of Columbia University, defined fascism thus, "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."​

Russia are no where near the 'most militarily aggressive corporate, expansive fascist state' that accolade is already taken

You mean the USA. It isn't a fascist state. It is a democracy. Not a perfect one and poorly led in many ways but a state where freedom is cherished and taken seriously and the leaders of government can be kicked out. I think the UK is a better democracy than the US. I think Estonia is a better democracy as well. We should stand up for democracies and not cheer on emerging fascist states like the new Russia - especially if we are tempted to do so because we don't like US policy.

And that brings me back to the purpose of this thread - you sound as if you are backing this dishonest notion of "sovereign democracy". Do you really believe that Ukraine and Estonia, and Kazakhstan and Georgia and Poland for that matter, aren't in the sights of the aspiring new Russian Empire?

 

[Mallard]

And that brings me back to the purpose of this thread - you sound as if you are backing this dishonest notion of "sovereign democracy". Do you really believe that Ukraine and Estonia, and Kazakhstan and Georgia and Poland for that matter, aren't in the sights of the aspiring new Russian Empire?

What makes you think that they are and why focus on Russia as opposed to others who are actually waging imperialist wars at the moment? I wouldn't agree with that definition of 'fascism' or your labelling of Russia as 'fascist' tbh (but that's a different thread).

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Nothing to do with Kissinger’s Secret Meeting With Putin the other day, then?

The Moscow Times tells us that:

After lengthy discussions with Putin and a group of Russian foreign policy experts behind closed doors, Kissinger told reporters there was a "frank, cordial discussion on a whole number of important issues for both societies and the rest of the world."

Diplo-speak for 'Putin told them where to get off to'.

Not a peep about it on the BBC. One whisper in the Guardian. Strange, eh?

Cue media campaign aimed at portraying Putin as 'fascist'...


***(..pats 'fully plumped' on the head).***

 

[poster342002]

they're letting their own surplus working class die off.

This, I suspect, is the game-plan of the ruling classes in the entire post-industrialised world. Just look around you - never-ending jobcuts, wage-freezes, price-rises and rent/mortgage rises combined with constant cutbacks in welfare. Slowly-but-surely, the working classes are being killed off.

 

[zoltan]

Im not great fan of Putin & Nationalism , but considering teh shite that Russia has been though in the past 15 years, I can see the reasoning behind this attempt to restore some "pride" in Mother Russia.

With regard to former Soviet states being eyed up as part of a Russian empire is misleading - Russia needs stability on its borders - Russia has always wanted Stability on its borders - this is not a new aim .Unlike the US - virtually a continent by itself, surrounded by water, Russia has always been insecure due to the sheer number of states on margins. Better to have a sympathetic state on your margins , than a hostile one - even if it is a shitty little republic.

I think its knee jerk and lazy to declare Russia fascist.It6 may not have a history of a Western model of democracy, but that does not make them by default a fascist state

 

[Fullyplumped]

What makes you think that they are

Because they used to be part of the old Soviet empire and the Russian government clearly feel the desire to get them back. The experience of Georgia,with Russian forces inside the territory supporting ethnic cleansing separatists, is instructive. Ukraine is having its arm twisted over energy and in internal politics. Estonia - now a NATO member - suffered an internet attack and other pressures over the movement of the war memorial.

and why focus on Russia as opposed to others who are actually waging imperialist wars at the moment? I wouldn't agree with that definition of 'fascism' or your labelling of Russia as 'fascist' tbh (but that's a different thread).

Well this story was about Nashi, which I cited as evidence of a nascent fascist force in a resurgent Russia.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Nothing to do with Kissinger’s Secret Meeting With Putin the other day, then?The Moscow Times tells us thatiplo-speak for 'Putin told them where to get off to'.Not a peep about it on the BBC. One whisper in the Guardian. Strange, eh? Cue media campaign aimed at portraying Putin as 'fascist'...


***(..pats 'fully plumped' on the head).***

Are you saying that there is a ""hidden hand" conspiracy, or that Russia is a social democratic democracy where all can freely express their opinions without getting beaten to death or shot or stabbed to death or strangled?

***(..sticks a hatpin into the hand of 'Backatcha Bandit' for being a creep who can't keep his hands to himself).***

 

[lewislewis]

Putin will be gone soon, wonder who will be his successor.

 

[Fullyplumped]

This, I suspect, is the game-plan of the ruling classes in the entire post-industrialised world. Just look around you - never-ending jobcuts, wage-freezes, price-rises and rent/mortgage rises combined with constant cutbacks in welfare. Slowly-but-surely, the working classes are being killed off.

Not in the UK, with numbers in paid work and proportion of population in paid work increasing over the long term (to the extent that many here are complaining about it) and pay growth still higher than consumer price inflation, and an increasing and ageing population - people are living longer.

As far as constant cutbacks in welfare are concerned, this is what was spent on social security benefits in the UK in recent years -

2002-03 £114 billion
2003-04 £118 billion
2004-05 £125 billion
2005-06 £129 billion
2006-07 £134 billion

In Russia, the population is declining and is projected to do so till 2020.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Im not great fan of Putin & Nationalism , but considering teh shite that Russia has been though in the past 15 years, I can see the reasoning behind this attempt to restore some "pride" in Mother Russia.

You mean we shouldn't have humiliated them at Versailles?

With regard to former Soviet states being eyed up as part of a Russian empire is misleading - Russia needs stability on its borders - Russia has always wanted Stability on its borders - this is not a new aim .Unlike the US - virtually a continent by itself, surrounded by water, Russia has always been insecure due to the sheer number of states on margins. Better to have a sympathetic state on your margins , than a hostile one - even if it is a shitty little republic.

So we should be understanding when they commit acts of subversion and war on a fellow-NATO member state? And what does "shitty little republic" mean? Do citizens of small countries not deserve freedom from intimidation because Russia is feeling insecure? Maybe Finland should start worrying again.

I think its knee jerk and lazy to declare Russia fascist.It6 may not have a history of a Western model of democracy, but that does not make them by default a fascist state

I'm not saying that Russia is a fascist state. I'm saying that there are signs it's on its way, and we should stop giving it the benefit of the doubt.

God, I feel like Churchill in "The Wilderness Years" here!

 

[yield]

God, I feel like Churchill in "The Wilderness Years" here!

You're drinking and reminiscing about gassing the Kurds?

I agree with Fullyplumped, the political climate in Russia is dire. The rise of Nationalism is across the board though.

 

[likesfish]

a country that get its journos killed is not heading the way of sweden is it.
Russia's fucking vast nobody in the west wants to invade Russia (well possibly the Germans )
only put off by the amount of shit they'd have to clear up.
France Belgium move a war memorial a civillised conversation would take place not threats and bluster.
uk does'nt tend to hand back highly visible people to a state where they won't
get a fair trial

 

[Mallard]

a country that get its journos killed is not heading the way of sweden is it.

Many countries have had journos killed including Britain. Sweden practised eugenics for a long time so possibly not a great example.

Russia's fucking vast nobody in the west wants to invade Russia (well possibly the Germans )

The Russian government are still at war in Chechnya. The yanks have suggested a missile 'defence' system right next to Russia.

France Belgium move a war memorial a civillised conversation would take place not threats and bluster.

Any examples of those two countries moving a mass grave of foriegn soldiers from World War Two for provocative political reasons?

uk does'nt tend to hand back highly visible people to a state where they won't
get a fair trial

Are you serious? Guantanamo Bay/extraditions to the US to face unlimited detention and possibly torture/returning political refugees to states with very poor records of 'free trials'. Fair trials are always the case in Britain? Sadly Britain is not really in a postion to lecture other states about free and fair trials at the moment .

 

[Fullyplumped]

Any examples of those two countries moving a mass grave of foriegn soldiers from World War Two for provocative political reasons?

The "mass grave" was of between twelve and fifteen Red Army soldiers.

Estonia has mutual war grave protection treaties with Finland and Germany, but not with Russia, and obviously not with the Soviet Union since it had been the occupying power. The movement of the memorial and proposal to reinter the fallen Red Army soldiers arose from bitter controversy and a history of clashes between Russian speakers, who used Soviet flags for their commemoration, and Estonian speakers, who resented the display of such totems. The government decided to act - in the face of considerable popular disapproval from all sections of society - but in line with the law.

Russia is in no place to feel aggrieved. The Soviet Union had invaded and occupied Estonia in 1939 following a secret pact with Hitler. Estonia remained illegally occupied by the Soviet Union for 48 years until restoration of its independence in 1991. During that time, the Soviet Union engineered mass immigration into Estonia from Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, and executed and deported many ethnic Estonians.

Estonians have no reason to love mother Russia and its army of occupation. Ironically, we in the UK have much more reason to respect the fallen Red Army soldiers.

Russia responded to Estonia's action with an unprecedented campaign of cyber war which disrupted many systems in a very highly computerised society and economy.

NATO and the EU should recognise that Russia is the one which is being provocative. They should apply the principle that an injury to one is an injury to all.

 

[Mallard]

The "mass grave" was of between twelve and fifteen Red Army soldiers.

Estonia has mutual war grave protection treaties with Finland and Germany, but not with Russia, and obviously not with the Soviet Union since it had been the occupying power. The movement of the memorial and proposal to reinter the fallen Red Army soldiers arose from bitter controversy and a history of clashes between Russian speakers, who used Soviet flags for their commemoration, and Estonian speakers, who resented the display of such totems. The government decided to act - in the face of considerable popular disapproval from all sections of society - but in line with the law.

It was a deliberate provocation and unneccesary from a government which openly celebrates the role of fascist war criminals as part of their 'National Liberation' http://www.dol.ru/users/lawass/Nazi_e.htm. Many of those who served in the 20th Waffen SS Division recieve pensions.

Russia is in no place to feel aggrieved. The Soviet Union had invaded and occupied Estonia in 1939 following a secret pact with Hitler. Estonia remained illegally occupied by the Soviet Union for 48 years until restoration of its independence in 1991. During that time, the Soviet Union engineered mass immigration into Estonia from Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, and executed and deported many ethnic Estonians.

The Russians were clearly going to be aggrieved by the removal of a war grave. The Estonians clearly knew that. Estonian fascists were responsible for ensuring the extermination of their jewish population as well as left wing political opponents. Is it really fair/productive to blame the current Russian government for actions carried out during the war/Soviet era? If so why not constantly harp on about the unpunished estonian mass murderers?

Russia responded to Estonia's action with an unprecedented campaign of cyber war which disrupted many systems in a very highly computerised society and economy.

Is this proven? If so, it's not something I'd condone. Other countries respond in a far worse manner for example carpet bombing civilians USA/Isreal/Britain but of course they are not 'fascist'. You have also failed to mention in your previous posts that the Nashi who are being labelled as 'fascists' are in fact a group who protested at the British Ambassador sharing a platform with the National Bolsheviks who actually are fascistic. This remains little reported in the British press. Why is that?

NATO and the EU should recognise that Russia is the one which is being provocative. They should apply the principle that an injury to one is an injury to all.

What are you suggesting here Fully? Carpet bombing/war/civilian murdering sanctions/gunboat diplomacy?

 

[Fullyplumped]

Estonia isn't a fascist state. It has emerged from nearly fifty years of occupation by the Soviet Union into a multiethnic western democracy fit to join the EU and NATO. It is our ally and it is being bullied by a huge former superpower which is flexing its muscles and reverting to totalitarianism. It can move a war grave if it wants and if that upsets the Russians so be it - we should stand by it. Our ambassador should also be supported if a right-wing mob supported by the state should harass him. Perhaps we could arrange for the Woodcraft Folk to mob the Russian ambassador? Maybe not.

How should we apply the principle that an injury to one is an injury to all? Resolutely. History tells us that the Russians respect strength and despise weakness. This is a test of the EU's and NATO's resolve and they must respond accordingly.

 

[Mallard]

Estonia isn't a fascist state. It has emerged from nearly fifty years of occupation by the Soviet Union into a multiethnic western democracy fit to join the EU and NATO. It is our ally and it is being bullied by a huge former superpower which is flexing its muscles and reverting to totalitarianism.

I never said it was Fully I said that it paid and celebrated it's previous fascist history. 'Our ally' Are you appealling to patriotism here? Your government has recently murdered thousands imposing it's will and fully supports totalitarian regimes such as the Saudis. In terms of 'totalitarian' compare the system of internmet that your PM wants to introduce or your governments appalling record of human rights abuses and extra judicial murders in Northern Ireland.

It can move a war grave if it wants and if that upsets the Russians so be it - we should stand by it.

So your government should support its allies regardless of their actions out of blind loyalty/hatred for who you see as the oppostion?

Our ambassador should also be supported if a right-wing mob supported by the state should harass him. Perhaps we could arrange for the Woodcraft Folk to mob the Russian ambassador? Maybe not.

Your ambassador was on a platform with the National Bolsheviks Fully. It is the British government's representative who associates with fascists. Russians have a right to protest against this.

How should we apply the principle that an injury to one is an injury to all? Resolutely. History tells us that the Russians respect strength and despise weakness. This is a test of the EU's and NATO's resolve and they must respond accordingly.

This is madness. For someone so keen to call others a 'right wing mob' you display a very simplistic and aggressive mentality here Fully. You must be right at home in New Labour looking for another war

 

[Fullyplumped]

I''m sorry - I didn't realise that you were a foreigner. Yes, I think my country and the other EU and NATO countries should stand by our ally, Estonia. That's the point of having allies.

 

[Mallard]

I''m sorry - I didn't realise that you were a foreigner. Yes, I think my country and the other EU and NATO countries should stand by our ally, Estonia. That's the point of having allies.

In which way Fully/yet another war?

 

[Fullyplumped]

In which way Fully/yet another war?

Resolutely.

 

[likesfish]

of course estonia is going to celebrate its SS veterans they only had four years of nazi occupation compared with 48 years of soviet occupation
plus it will piss off russia surprise fucking surprise treat your occupied territory like shit don't expect them to be your best friends or respect anything you leave behind

 

[obanite]

Evidence for this 'cyber warfare' please?

 

[Fullyplumped]

Evidence for this 'cyber warfare' please?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=estonia+cyber+warfare'&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

[laptop]

You mean the USA. It isn't a fascist state. It is a democracy. Not a perfect one and poorly led in many ways but a state where freedom is cherished and taken seriously and the leaders of government can be kicked out.

Yesterday I read Al Gore's The Assault on Reason. He doesn't say the US is a fascist state. He does draw telling comparisons between the Cheney/Bush putsch and Mussolini (and Stalin).

That's Al Gore.

 

[TAE]

To be fair, though, I do think Cheney/Bush will go peacefully when their term is up.