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The Role of Government

You can acquire skills that are more in demand. Remember property owners need to buy goods and services, to build and improve their properties, to run businesses etc etc.

In my view, it's easier to acquire money in a society where money buys power than it is to acquire power in society where power gives you control of resources.
 
You can acquire skills that are more in demand. Remember property owners need to buy goods and services, to build and improve their properties, to run businesses etc etc.

How do you acquire skills while working all the hours god sends just to pay the rent?

In my view, it's easier to acquire money in a society where money buys power than it is to acquire power in society where power gives you control of resources.


This doesn't make sense.
 

I believe that he's attempting to imply, in the usual cack-handed way his ilk has, that the experience you garner from working long hours in order to get by helps you take a step up the labour ladder.
I know that you realise this, and see it for the bunkum it is, but I just thought I'd type it out so that everyone can see how intellectually bankrupt a statement of the likes of Mr. Friedman's is. ;)
 
I believe that he's attempting to imply, in the usual cack-handed way his ilk has, that the experience you garner from working long hours in order to get by helps you take a step up the labour ladder.
I know that you realise this, and see it for the bunkum it is, but I just thought I'd type it out so that everyone can see how intellectually bankrupt a statement of the likes of Mr. Friedman's is. ;)

I'll be sure to inform imported warehouse labour and Cash era cotton picking families of this stunning insight
 
What if you don't have any property? What good are property rights then?

I'm not sure why exactly you would care though to be honest the majority of the time? If I don't own a house with a garden (which I don't) then why would I care what somebody does with their house or garden? 95% of the time I would have thought what would be covered under property rights would have no bearing on my life unless somebody decided to use their property for ends that directly endagered my life i.e. stood shooting their shot gun by the side of the road on their side of the fence or started destroying historical buildings.

Although it might be a good idea to actually specify what we mean by property rights, since I believe different political camps would define what rights you would have differently.

For example if we where take Dr Sean Gabb (Director of the Libertarian alliance) approach to absolute property rights, this could not only affect those without property, but those with property in an adverse way.
For example this strain Libertarianism would argue that on your property it is perfectly OK for you to place signs up saying "No Black, No Irish, No Dogs". They would also argue since you own the property, if it where say a shop, you have the right to ban Muslims, or Jews from entering your premisis.

I can't imagine the public seeing this as acceptible though can you?

If jane and john go out to cut wheat, but jane hasn't tools as good as the ones john inherited from his father, where then is fair society?

DotCommunist> I don't think society will ever be fair. Some people may want to play guitar like Slash, will buy the best guitar and rigg in the world and not have the inate ability he has.

Also your example is a bit simplistic IMO. In real life of course many other factors come into play. Jane could take a loan to buy better equipment. If she is more skilled at the job then John then she will obviously have an advantage over him.
John's parents may have sacraficed much in their life in order to see John have a better start in life they did, so John may have had a less comftable upbringing then Jane, but have an advantage later in life.
So do I believe it is unfair for John to inherit those tools? No. It's what he does with them, or if they where aquired through repression/violence etc. that matters to me.

and what if people say they want more for their labour and their intelligence?
Fridgemagnet> I'd say good on them and go for it. That's what Unions are for. If companies want to hire people then they have to accept people will want a bigger slice of the pie, better benefits and what have you. If they don't like it that tough really, don't open a company.

But clearly, if there is a vacant building that is "owned" by somebody, in an area where there are people who are homeless, enforcing an absolute condition that the "owner" can keep people out of the property regardless means that those people won't be able to live in that property.

I think if it has got to the stage where councils have to force people to allow the homelsss to live in their vacant property, then they are fire fighting and the issue should have been addressed before it got to that stage (obviously it will be argued there are exceptions like natural disasters etc.).



In my view, it's easier to acquire money in a society where money buys power than it is to acquire power in society where power gives you control of resources.

Friedman> I'm not sure what you are getting at here. If you are seriously suggesting though that power to control the state, local government etc. should be based upon money then I disagree with you 100% I am afraid.
Business should stay out of government, no more lobbyists, no more government backing BAe systems. The government should also stay out of meddling in the business world and using the pwoer of the state to smash Unions and what have you.
 
I'm not sure why exactly you would care though to be honest the majority of the time? If I don't own a house with a garden (which I don't) then why would I care what somebody does with their house or garden?

Because you have to pay rent to them! You have to be employed by them! They determine your wages, your rent!
 
DotCommunist> I don't think society will ever be fair. Some people may want to play guitar like Slash, will buy the best guitar and rigg in the world and not have the inate ability he has.

Life isn't fair arguments do not excuse one from working towards fairness rather than defending the status quo
Also your example is a bit simplistic IMO. In real life of course many other factors come into play. Jane could take a loan to buy better equipment. If she is more skilled at the job then John then she will obviously have an advantage over him.
John's parents may have sacraficed much in their life in order to see John have a better start in life they did, so John may have had a less comftable upbringing then Jane, but have an advantage later in life.
So do I believe it is unfair for John to inherit those tools? No. It's what he does with them, or if they where aquired through repression/violence etc. that matters to me.

Could she? all the time, anyone who needs money can get it on loan regardless of circumstance?

The problem the whole 'johns parents worked themselves to the bone to give him what they didn't have' thing is that it doesn't address structural inequalities but just says 'if you beggar yourself to promote your child he might be able to move further up the social scale'. It's not a solution, it's a rags to riches fairytale.
 
Life isn't fair arguments do not excuse one from working towards fairness rather than defending the status quo

Of course.
Could she? all the time, anyone who needs money can get it on loan regardless of circumstance?

Of course not. But as I said life isn't simple and there are many variables. However just because Jane can't get a loan, shouldn't mean that John can't inherhit his families tools. It's not John fault Jane can't the loan after all so why should he be punished?
I don't think inequalities can be addressed by this sort of attitude.


It's not a solution, it's a rags to riches fairytale.

Your answer to this seems to be take John's tools off him then? State sanctioned theft of John's goods maybe?
I'm not sure how you could consider that to be any kind of solution either to be honest
 
Of course.


Of course not. But as I said life isn't simple and there are many variables. However just because Jane can't get a loan, shouldn't mean that John can't inherhit his families tools. It's not John fault Jane can't the loan after all so why should he be punished?
I don't think inequalities can be addressed by this sort of attitude.




Your answer to this seems to be take John's tools off him then? State sanctioned theft of John's goods maybe?
I'm not sure how you could consider that to be any kind of solution either to be honest

who was talking about punishment or theft? certainly I wasn't. It's telling how you see that as the only alternative to inequality. How about if John gave some of his wheat surplus to Jane, or took on some of her workload so that she might be able to go to tool making class part time, to forge tools as good as his?

Why would he do that, you ask. Perhaps because he doesn't agree that life and society have to be intrinsically unfair and realises that by helping Jane to get on he betters himself and society, so that Jane won't spend her life working twice as hard and long as him to better her children. After all, his parents worked themselves to the bone to give him his advantage, why should he not share that around?
 
DotCommunist> And that solution would be the perfect one i.e. Charity and would be how I would personally approach the situation.
State Sponsored Theft was me alluding to tax basically. The whole gun against the head idea which leads to resentment in itself, which seems to be a lot of peoples solution to problems...
 
DotCommunist> And that solution would be the perfect one i.e. Charity and would be how I would personally approach the situation.
State Sponsored Theft was me alluding to tax basically. The whole gun against the head idea which leads to resentment in itself, which seems to be a lot of peoples solution to problems...

Ah, see charity. That's not quite what I was talking about. If people taking 50% profit tax and Luxury tax on high end items like supercars and third homes could be made to see that as charity and social improvement we might get somewhere. However they persist in seeing it as state sponsored robbery, comforting themselves as to their integrity by throwing crumbs from the table to the underclass rather than addressing the real issue of why an underclass exists in the first place.
 
Ah, see charity. That's not quite what I was talking about.
I think we are probably heading towards a semantics argument here. If we mean giving for the common good, to help your neighbour and to see them do well, to not tread on them and see them as some kind of serf, I would call that charity personally.

If people taking 50% profit tax and Luxury tax on high end items like supercars and third homes could be made to see that as charity and social improvement we might get somewhere. However they persist in seeing it as state sponsored robbery, comforting themselves as to their integrity by throwing crumbs from the table to the underclass rather than addressing the real issue of why an underclass exists in the first place.

Obviously not going to happen. This is also why income tax doesn't work in my opinion and why every fucker who can is obviously going to avoid paying it unless they genuinely believe in paying it for the common good.
 
I think we are probably heading towards a semantics argument here. If we mean giving for the common good, to help your neighbour and to see them do well, to not tread on them and see them as some kind of serf, I would call that charity personally.

I always saw charity as selfless giving, whereas what I am talking about is the sort of enlightened self awareness that realises that by by sharing your surplus you benefit society and so benefit you and yours too.


Obviously not going to happen. This is also why income tax doesn't work in my opinion and why every fucker who can is obviously going to avoid paying it unless they genuinely believe in paying it for the common good.

Don't see why it is obviously not going to happen. Nor why income tax 'doesn't work'. UK healthcare is markedly better than american healthcare precisely because it is funded by tax on earnings rather than packaged as part of your employment benefits. Yes every fucker who can employ a decent bookkeeper is going to avoid it, but these are structural issues. Proper legislation and laws can make the consequences of doing so unpleasant enough that they outweigh the advantage.
 
Don't see why it is obviously not going to happen. Nor why income tax 'doesn't work'. UK healthcare is markedly better than american healthcare precisely because it is funded by tax on earnings rather than packaged as part of your employment benefits.
Well I live in the US (from England originally) and the NHS is 100% better then the shit system here, I still pay NI back in England.
We have to pay for healthcare privatly as I'm self employed and my wife's company doesn't offer it, it is a crap system (as I have posted about before). So yes the NHS does work because it is funded from the public purse and open to everyone. However does it work because tax used on universal healthcare works, or does it work because Income Tax works?

Yes every fucker who can employ a decent bookkeeper is going to avoid it, but these are structural issues. Proper legislation and laws can make the advantages of doing so unpleasant enough that they outweigh the advantage.

Which happens to be the people who control the majority of the wealth, or anyone who is a contractor, freelancer, self employed etc.
So what you are talking about is closing the loop holes in Income Tax right? That to me already implies it is flawed because it has holes, but I have no reason to believe that anyone will get into power to change the Income Tax laws in such a way that those who would really lose out ...will.
 
Well I live in the US (from England originally) and the NHS is 100% better then the shit system here, I still pay NI back in England.
We have to pay for healthcare privatly as I'm self employed and my wife's company doesn't offer it, it is a crap system (as I have posted about before). So yes the NHS does work because it is funded from the public purse and open to everyone. However does it work because tax used on universal healthcare works, or does it work because Income Tax works?

your asking a strange question here. Does the way a tax is spent work effectively? of course it does, if spent well. Does a particular type of tax work? depends if it is spent well.

Which happens to be the people who control the majority of the wealth, or anyone who is a contractor, freelancer, self employed etc.
So what you are talking about is closing the loop holes in Income Tax right? That to me already implies it is flawed because it has holes, but I have no reason to believe that anyone will get into power to change the Income Tax laws in such a way that those who would really lose out ...will.

You have an Income Tax axe to grind here, and I agree that the evasion and avoidance of tax is a really infuriating thing, but again we are talking structural details, not a the shift in economic thinking I am talking about.
As for your belief about who will get into power on what agenda, well I am pessimistic myself, but to sit back and say 'oh well we gotta work within this unfair system' is not an attitude I share.
 
The role of Government isn't to make life good for everyone, it's to set up the frameworks were life can be good for everyone.
 
I've bin busy :)

I am pessimistic myself, but to sit back and say 'oh well we gotta work within this unfair system' is not an attitude I share.

So what is your alternative? Violent action against? Peaceful action against?

if you have a planning system then you have to have the other side of the equation, you have to build houses UP to soak up the excess demand and to return the price of property to a reasonable level. To not do so perpetuates inequality.

Is the role of government to limit the inequality of a modern, capitalistic state?

Why would you waste an asset like [property] when you could sell it? Of course it will happen, but not as much as it would happen if it didn't belong to anyone, IMO.

This is false logic - you might not be able to see a rationale for keeping a building empty, but the existence of vast numbers of empty unused buildings indicates that the owners do see the rationale. The existence of way too many empty properties indicates a market failure. If Landowners wish to keep an amount of space empty within a community then they should pay a charge per metre square for the privilege.

I was on Gloucester road in Bristol the other day, and I saw the old Bath House, completely empty and boarded up. I estimated a volume of about 13,500 cubic meters in a dynamic area. This space represents a big hole in the local community. If the price were right I'm sure that another owner would open it out and rent it out, creating jobs and maybe doing it up over time.

No, I mean what personal price, in terms of the diminution of other freedoms and rights, are you prepared to pay to the state so that they guarantee your property rights?

We need them and they need us - so we need to work out a system. My right to not be tortured is a right I cherish and I couldn't choose to waive it if I wanted to, if I could it would stop being a right.

...all the incentives are in the wrong place.

Indeed we need to apply our brains and work out a system which limits the abuse and to aligns the incentives. There are some things which cannot be left to the market. Rubbish will not be collected without some manipulation of the market.

Abolishing the planning laws

Common land has often been over farmed in the past - if land is not owned then it is abused by the population.

The planning agencies are instinctively conservative, wanting to preserve 'England's green and pleasant land'. I like Labour's policy to rule that all new builds will have a certain percent put to one side for social sources but the building of large scale, good quality high-rise living is not happening. If the planning rules were relaxed or abolished then people would build wherever they wanted and with good regulation on quality of new builds this would lead to moving the supply curve to the right thus reducing prices. It would not of course improve the flexibility of the usage of current empty buildings. For that we need a tax per square metre as described above.

So we have two issue - existing buildings which are not being released for rent or sale, and the planning laws which are there to prevent people building on England's Green and Pleasant Land - and which contribute to the restriction of supply and the resulting higher prices.

To add to the above. I do believe in property rights, and do not believe they should be abolished. They probably do need an overhaul though as they are open to abuse.

Land is a factor of production and is limited in comparison with other countries. So the inflexible lack of supply which our system results in is a market failure and the govt should look at ways to free this up.

Jane and John

So John has an inherited advantage - I think that's ok, most people want to give their children the bast and by definition that will be at the expense of another child. And if Jane goes off to the bank and takes out a loan to better herself then good for her. Is this 'unfair' on John?

A Fair Society

We have a certain degree of fairness in society. Education for all and the NHS for example. Many are paying the price for the decision not to take the opportunities that they had as a kid. Everyone had a chance at school, and i'm sure that more than one teacher told them that it made sense to work at school coz it gives them a better life later.

The key thing is to have a system where if you work hard and educate yourself you can make it. So we should be making sure that education is fixed and that Adult education is available to all.

Inheritence tax could be set higher, but if it were set too high then the rich would leave, so there has to be a balance.

and what if people say they want more for their labour and their intelligence?

They were born with brains or they got an education, and there is nothing 'unfair' about that.

where then is fair society?

Who claims that life is fair? Is the role of govt to limit the unfairness?

In the UK we see one of the roles of govt is to ensure that the NHS is supported. It is one of the greatest feats of our system to have such an idealistic role for govt and it is one I applaud.

No wonder Europe is going for openness first and foremost. You can make fun of anything that is based on faith but I applaud the progressiveness of such libertarianism, giving a primacy to issues of freedom before the authoritarianism - it is the height in trusting the people.
 
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