The reason why the left are in the political wilderness is because....

[derf]

On the tenth page, as always, the conclusion will be "m/c activists do not pay enough attention to the issues on the ground".

You got it baby.

I keep trying to hammer that home when they whine on about how the BNP are doing so well but no fucker ever listens.

No bastard gives a fuck what Marx said. All they want to know is if they have the cash to live through the week and if someone is likely to break into their house.
The left have sod all idea how to get any message over. While that is an advantage to the country it's also good for the likes of the BNP who milk lefty bullshit for every vote they can.

 

[greenman]

4 main reasons
The electoral system which means that unlike other parts of Europe the left is denied representation and therefore presented as extreme, unelectable and irrelevant in the media.
The collapse of British communism since the demise of their favoured role model in the East, and the consequent hollowing out of the labour movement organisations they had colonised. (e.g. Trades Councils)
The dominance on the British left since the 1970s of Trotskyism - a dead end, particularly in forms which have prioritised the quick fix of transient middle class student recruitment. (Leading to what Fridge Magnet said )
Labourism which has degenerated into a system for absolving anyone of doing anything for themselves and evolved a political class whose concerns and interests and fawning to capitalists have alienated much of their base.

 

[fractionMan]

It's because m/c activists do not pay enough attention to the issues on the ground

 

[Streathamite]

They've become too obsessed with minority issues, too cultural relativist, and wanky slogans like "We are all hizbollocks now" don't exactly help.

The left has lost its connection with the working class (of all races) for the sake of promoting rather divisive multiculturalism. IMO.

absolutely, and i'd add - they've lost connection with bread-and-butter issues. but above all else, they've forgotten how to LISTEN to workers, and base ppolicies and views on their needs and hopes

 

[tbaldwin]

...?

I have my theories. What's yours?

They are too negative.

Negative about Middle Class people.
Negative about Working Class people.

Negative about Democracy.

Negative about each other.

 

[treelover]

Labour have gone far more for multicuturalism than the left. They know there's votes in it. With the possible exception of the I/P thing I dont know anyone on "the left" who obssess on those kind of issues.

Er, ever read the Socialist Unity/Respect blog

 

[glenquagmire]

I agree that Eurocommunism and identity politics is a dead end but lumping everyone on 'the left' in with Socialist Action and Martin Jacques just displays ignorance.

 

[isitme]

They are too negative.

Negative about Middle Class people.
Negative about Working Class people.

Negative about Democracy.

Negative about each other.

that's cos it's all bollocks

 

[pk]

 

[Stoat Boy]

I think that their personal hygine standards have a lot to do with it. The left, as a whole, do tend to look rather scruffy and you do wonder how many of them have a daily and on-going relationship with a bar of soap.

They need to smarten up. The men need to have a hair cut and polish their shows and left wing women need to put on a bit of war paint and a nice frock. There really is no need to look so frumpy and miserable.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Yes I think a 'nice frock' could end all of the problems of the left.

 

[Stoat Boy]

Yes I think a 'nice frock' could end all of the problems of the left.

It might help. Seriously if you could all stop looking like rejects from an Oxfam shop modelling agency then people might take you seriously. Working class people take pride in their appearance and expect those hoping to represent them doing like wise.

Dont get me wrong I am a working class Tory so dont really want the left to go anywhere other than the wilderness but if you middle class lefties want to get people to vote for you then smartening up is not going to do you any harm what so ever. Just a wash now and again would be a start

Oh and you need to all stop looking so constipated. You might be full of shit but there is no need to look it.

 

[isitme]

It might help. Seriously if you could all stop looking like rejects from an Oxfam shop modelling agency then people might take you seriously. Working class people take pride in their appearance and expect those hoping to represent them doing like wise.

Dont get me wrong I am a working class Tory so dont really want the left to go anywhere other than the wilderness but if you middle class lefties want to get people to vote for you then smartening up is not going to do you any harm what so ever. Just a wash now and again would be a start

Oh and you need to all stop looking so constipated. You might be full of shit but there is no need to look it.

i thought you were a tory because a left wing government would at the very least take more of the money you make from the properties that you own (you working class hero you) and reinvest it in essential services like schools and hospitals rather than letting you spend it on shit to make yourself feel like a big man

but it turns out it's just that they don't dress well

 

[treelover]

There is a thread on Guardian CIF about the coming welfare reforms propelled by the cheat Purnell, one can tell there is real anger and yes fear about these US style welfare sytsems, yet who is articulating that anger, who is championing this cause which resonates with and will affect millions.

maybe one reason for the above OP


waaits for certain posters to shoot the messenger

 

[tbaldwin]

There is a thread on Guardian CIF about the coming welfare reforms propelled by the cheat Purnell, one can tell there is real anger and yes fear about these US style welfare sytsems, yet who is articulating that anger, who is championing this cause which resonates with and will affect millions.

maybe one reason for the above OP


waaits for certain posters to shoot the messenger

Can i go first?

How about saying something positive for a change. Proposing changes that mean disabled people who want to work are supported and not penalised for finding part time work might be a start.

Forgive me if im wrong but you seem very keen to defend the welfare state and i think that is a shame.
As it stands it helps to keep people in relative poverty and means that people are often isolated and depressed.

 

[Stoat Boy]

i thought you were a tory because a left wing government would at the very least take more of the money you make from the properties that you own (you working class hero you) and reinvest it in essential services like schools and hospitals rather than letting you spend it on shit to make yourself feel like a big man

but it turns out it's just that they don't dress well

Almost right although I am out of the rental property market or at least those that I own. Saw the writing on that wall.

But my 'point' about lefties not dressing smart does I think contain at least a hint of why the left has become so marginalised in that it seems to lost that notion of the aspiration for the individual which did make up part of its collective perception in the relatively near past.

Now many left wing activists are seen as being too preachy and hypocritcal in terms of what they want to impose on the working class whilst retaining the elements of choice for themsevles (education is the most obvious example of this but to a less extent the bleating about cheap air-flights or petrol) and on the whole notion of things such as multiculturalism have just adopted a stance of not being even willing to listen to peoples concerns whilst being percieved as being relatively untouched by its affects beyond being able to go to a wider range of restaurants.

I guess I become a Tory because I percieved them, under the leadership of Lady, as being a party for people who wanted to achieve something in their lives and not be punished by excessive taxes as opposed to Labour who just seemed to want to tell me what I could not do and generally seem to view white working class males as thuggish louts (which to be fair was not an unrealistic view of some of our behaviour but it certainly was not the entire picture).

Oddly enough I must be one of the few people who have grown more left wing as I have gotten older but even so, I would never vote for Labour because I still percieve it as the party of the hypocritical middle classes who look down their noses as me which is perhaps a tad paranoid but its my experience.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I know that the "m/c activists don't care" thing will end up being what people say again and again but it doesn't mean I agree with it.

I don't really think it's a very meaningful question, really, unless it's a bit more precisely defined, and that's part of the problem; the place is full of lots of people claiming to be "left-wing". Is Polly Toynbee a symbol of the failure of "the left"? The whole point of Toynbees is to damage other individuals and groups that might actually achieve something and grouping them together is how it happens.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Oddly enough I must be one of the few people who have grown more left wing as I have gotten older

no, I have, lots of people have, most people I know actually, though I suspect I started out a bit further along the line than you did

but even so, I would never vote for Labour because I still percieve it as the party of the hypocritical middle classes who look down their noses as me which is perhaps a tad paranoid but its my experience.

New Labour calling themselves "the left" is a deliberate tactic and one which has worked well. Though it's falling apart a bit now.

 

[Stoat Boy]

New Labour calling themselves "the left" is a deliberate tactic and one which has worked well. Though it's falling apart a bit now.

Thats fair enough but given the fractured nature of the left it still remains by far the biggest entity that might be considered 'left'.

Which I think is the lefts problem. I suppose you could argue that the Greens are the main left wing party after Labour but I think that would be pushing it somewhat and that link up is one I still think will end in tears and it seems that in terms of something that might be able to present itself as a left wing working class alternative to the BNP, well its just not out there and there are no signs of it emerging for a variety of reasons not least of which is this obsession with Internationalism.

I think its easy to convice people that discriminating on the basis of race is just plain daft but far less easy to persuade them that slogans such as 'British jobs for British workers' have no validity. Its that which the left needs to grapple with because its here that I percieve them to be most out of touch with those working class people interests it claims to have at heart.

 

[liampreston]

There is something to be said about sticking together and moving forward as one group.

UKIP, Greens, BNP - any tuppence marketing course will tell you about their brand recognition and how important it is that their name and brand has been the same for so many years (as well as but as we have found not necessarily always policies, natch).

If we're playing Jeopardy here, the answer "BNP" could well be the answer to the question "Can you name a right-wing UK party?"

I really, really want my own party and the left to do well, far better than at present, because the mood of the nation only seems at the mo to be attracting extremes from the wrong side of the spectrum. But if you drew lines showing the history of political parties over, say, a ten year period, what would you see? The stop start lines of the left, and continued straight lines of the mainstream centre and right.

The reason why the left are in the political wilderness is because...They did not stick to one , erm, socialist alliance with enough respect.

 

[Greenfish]

Almost right although I am out of the rental property market or at least those that I own. Saw the writing on that wall.

But my 'point' about lefties not dressing smart does I think contain at least a hint of why the left has become so marginalised in that it seems to lost that notion of the aspiration for the individual which did make up part of its collective perception in the relatively near past.

Now many left wing activists are seen as being too preachy and hypocritcal in terms of what they want to impose on the working class whilst retaining the elements of choice for themsevles (education is the most obvious example of this but to a less extent the bleating about cheap air-flights or petrol) and on the whole notion of things such as multiculturalism have just adopted a stance of not being even willing to listen to peoples concerns whilst being percieved as being relatively untouched by its affects beyond being able to go to a wider range of restaurants.

I guess I become a Tory because I percieved them, under the leadership of Lady, as being a party for people who wanted to achieve something in their lives and not be punished by excessive taxes as opposed to Labour who just seemed to want to tell me what I could not do and generally seem to view white working class males as thuggish louts (which to be fair was not an unrealistic view of some of our behaviour but it certainly was not the entire picture).

Oddly enough I must be one of the few people who have grown more left wing as I have gotten older but even so, I would never vote for Labour because I still percieve it as the party of the hypocritical middle classes who look down their noses as me which is perhaps a tad paranoid but its my experience.

What he said. spot on. i will always vote labour, though - and never tory

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Thats fair enough but given the fractured nature of the left it still remains by far the biggest entity that might be considered 'left'.

Which I think is the lefts problem.

How can it be "the left"'s problem when for the biggest entity in "the left", it's not a problem at all - it's what they meant to do?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There is something to be said about sticking together and moving forward as one group.

Who should stick together with whom?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

This constant derision of the "middle class" gets on my tits. For one thing it smacks of bigotry, for another class is very nebulous. People could think I was MC because of my family, being a teacher or the fact that I like theatre, R4, classical music and all that. That is cultural. I happen to have lived in deprived areas most of my life on very little income and have to sell my labour. Ms TG happens to come from a very old aristo family line, but her financial circs are similar to mine.

The takeover by the finance oligarchs has made me know it is a lot more accurate to call myself working class, which most people obviously are. And I know full well that knocking on a door and talking about finance oligarchs, or telling BNP waverers that the BNP is fascist, generally wouldnt cut it. For a final thing, some degree of middle class support is neccessary for just about any kind of worthy revolution. "Revolutionary" governments that do away with the MCs and intellectuals are essentially reactionary powermongers and not to be trusted.

 

[Greenfish]

most of politics you hear talked about is unscientific trollocks that i find difficult to get excited about either way. very few peoples opinions are evidence based, which is understandable - but it's difficult to get involved in that on any level. guess work. not saying it's worthless. just flawed. i am right! you're wrong! based on what?! Fuck all! Just how I feel!

best just to go read a book and make sure one's actions are good and caring.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

This constant derision of the "middle class" gets on my tits. For one thing it smacks of bigotry, for another class is very nebulous. People could think I was MC because of my family, being a teacher or the fact that I like theatre, R4, classical music and all that. That is cultural. I happen to have lived in deprived areas most of my life on very little income and have to sell my labour. Ms TG happens to come from a very old aristo family line, but her financial circs are similar to mine.

The takeover by the finance oligarchs has made me know it is a lot more accurate to call myself working class, which most people obviously are. And I know full well that knocking on a door and talking about finance oligarchs, or telling BNP waverers that the BNP is fascist, generally wouldnt cut it. For a final thing, some degree of middle class support is neccessary for just about any kind of worthy revolution. "Revolutionary" governments that do away with the MCs and intellectuals are essentially reactionary powermongers and not to be trusted.

Oh come off it - the reason I don't think "m/c lefties ruining it all" is accurate is not because class doesn't exist and anyway people are mean to them. Denying the existence of class is just crippling any sort of analysis about how things are targetted and how they work.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Oh come off it - the reason I don't think "m/c lefties ruining it all" is accurate is not because class doesn't exist and anyway people are mean to them. Denying the existence of class is just crippling any sort of analysis about how things are targetted and how they work.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick there FM. I wasnt getting at you and I don't deny the existence of class. But class theory is generally not a doorstep issue, even if doorstep issues like housing are often class-related.

There are loads of good answers on this thread but I think it is key that if leftists want to get elected they have to target wards just like any other party does. They might also find it helpful not to overtly refer to themselves as leftists. Thinking aloud, the most promising wards for a left party would probably be wards where Labour dominate but are complacent and others dont think they have a chance of winning. You have to come 2nd before you come first generally and that would mean appealing to people beyond the left. Referring to being left might well alienate them.

Repeating myself again, the model of groups like Wigan CAP and Oxford IWCA are interesting to learn from despite imperfections.

 

[butchersapron]

This constant derision of the "middle class" gets on my tits. For one thing it smacks of bigotry, for another class is very nebulous. People could think I was MC because of my family, being a teacher or the fact that I like theatre, R4, classical music and all that. That is cultural. I happen to have lived in deprived areas most of my life on very little income and have to sell my labour. Ms TG happens to come from a very old aristo family line, but her financial circs are similar to mine.

The takeover by the finance oligarchs has made me know it is a lot more accurate to call myself working class, which most people obviously are. And I know full well that knocking on a door and talking about finance oligarchs, or telling BNP waverers that the BNP is fascist, generally wouldnt cut it. For a final thing, some degree of middle class support is neccessary for just about any kind of worthy revolution. "Revolutionary" governments that do away with the MCs and intellectuals are essentially reactionary powermongers and not to be trusted.

What's this bollocks got to do with the thread? Unless you're offering it as a reason for the lefts maginality. Are you?

 

[butchersapron]

I think you have the wrong end of the stick there FM. I wasnt getting at you and I don't deny the existence of class. But class theory is generally not a doorstep issue, even if doorstep issues like housing are often class-related.

There are loads of good answers on this thread but I think it is key that if leftists want to get elected they have to target wards just like any other party does. They might also find it helpful not to overtly refer to themselves as leftists. Thinking aloud, the most promising wards for a left party would probably be wards where Labour dominate but are complacent and others dont think they have a chance of winning. You have to come 2nd before you come first generally and that would mean appealing to people beyond the left. Referring to being left might well alienate them.

Repeating myself again, the model of groups like Wigan CAP and Oxford IWCA are interesting to learn from despite imperfections.

Bullshit - you're just putting your own perspective forward as the universal one -the same way the midde lcalss always does. The IWCA has done well by rejecting this sort of happy clappy bullshit not by adopting it - by mamking class utterly central. The clue is in the name.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Bullshit - you're just putting your own perspective forward as the universal one -the same way the midde lcalss always does.

Straight from the Department of Things Butchers Makes Up, and probably the most vacuous toss I have ever read you post.

The easiest way of dissing someone you disagree with is to just fictionalise.

And this "same way the middle class always does" is hyperbole and homoginisation. The only things middle class about me are cultural. Economically I am working class and my perspective is working class.