The Politics of the Workhouse!

[ViolentPanda]

That could be dealt with through Tax Credits System...

Actually, it can't.
I'll even tell you why. It's because HMRC can't handle their current system, let alone one which would need regional variation to take into account rental price differentials nationwide.

under European Law their is a threshold upon which these parasitical scroungers have to be paid...

Care to tell me the name of this law? The name of the act, the chapter, paragraph and clause will do.
Excuse me if I don't hold my breath while I wait, though.

...and I suspect that is true of decent people in part time work.

Amazing how often people with reactionary views hedge their suppositions with words like "suspect", seems", feels" etc.

You're such a hard man dishing out aggressive insults, but you can't really take them can you.

I can take anything you dish out, you poor little crybaby.

Perhaps as the nanny state disappears and your delusions and psycho sematic illnessnes dissapate...

Wow, Nigel's not only a twat, he's a psychiatrist too!
The problem for you is that all my health problems are physiological, the half a dozen different consultants I've been referred to have all told me so.

..through the re-introduction of a work environment comes about (in your case picking up litter in the park,as thats probably the level of your abilities, wearing a bright orange suite so you can't scive) you might develop better people skills.

Ooh, you're so cutting, you're almost as sharp as a butter knife. Careful, you might cut yourself, and that would be a shame, wouldn't it?

Try again, preferably once you've grown a pair and actually know what you're talking about, soft lad.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What's so great about work anyway?

Well, I suppose that for people like Nigel, who have little else except their employment status to hang their self-respect on, it's a great thing for preventing him seeing the utter futility of his worthless soi-disant "Working Class Socialist" reactionary right-wing existence.

 

[Nigel]

Those Who Do Not Work Do Not Eat!!!!!!!

What's so great about work anyway?

Nothing much, however it means that people can stand on their own two feet and have a sense of self worth.

And have more of a self of righteousness in themselves for what is just and act collectively for social revolution

 

[Spion]

What's so great about work anyway?

I see disabled people every day of the week who get a great deal of social and psychological benefit from work. And that goes for many many other people too, who are not in that situation, health-wise

I admit there's a lot wrong with a lot of the work humans do, but I'd never say it was inherently a bad thing - quite the opposite in fact. It's just we mostly don't do the right work.

(NB, this was a contribution with no knowledge of the context of the thread. I just wanted to question your statement)

 

[ViolentPanda]

I see disabled people every day of the week who get a great deal of social and psychological benefit from work. And that goes for many many other people too, who are not in that situation, health-wise

I admit there's a lot wrong with a lot of the work humans do, but I'd never say it was inherently a bad thing - quite the opposite in fact. It's just we mostly don't do the right work.

(NB, this was a contribution with no knowledge of the context of the thread. I just wanted to question your statement)

I think that there's an essential problem in that many people say "work" when what they mean is (paid) employment.
I work, I even still pay Income Tax for my sins, but I'm not in paid employment, and aren't likely to be. I stay happy (and relatively sane ) by doing what I can when I can, and not crying over the fact I can't do more.
I think your comment about "the right work" is spot on, and I believe it's important to feed the soul (for want of a better word) as well as the belly. Paid employment often doesn't do the former, only the latter.

 

[Spion]

I think that there's an essential problem in that many people say "work" when what they mean is (paid) employment.
I work, I even still pay Income Tax for my sins, but I'm not in paid employment, and aren't likely to be. I stay happy (and relatively sane ) by doing what I can when I can, and not crying over the fact I can't do more.
I think your comment about "the right work" is spot on, and I believe it's important to feed the soul (for want of a better word) as well as the belly. Paid employment often doesn't do the former, only the latter.

Yep, work is pretty much essential to being human. Wage labour, however, is not

 

[bluestreak]

Does anyone else have less of a sense of self-worth when they're working?

I always found that slogging my arse off doing something terribly dull for as little money as they could get away with in order to make someone else rich severely LOWERED my self-worth, as I got to look at my pay packet compared to my surplus value and assign a terribly low number to it.

 

[_angel_]

I see disabled people every day of the week who get a great deal of social and psychological benefit from work. And that goes for many many other people too, who are not in that situation, health-wise

I admit there's a lot wrong with a lot of the work humans do, but I'd never say it was inherently a bad thing - quite the opposite in fact. It's just we mostly don't do the right work.
(NB, this was a contribution with no knowledge of the context of the thread. I just wanted to question your statement)

It's not inherently a good or bad thing. No other animals engage in paid work. It's an artificial concept.

The evangelising of 'work is good for you' is VERY wrong however.

 

[Spion]

It's not inherently a good or bad thing. No other animals engage in paid work. It's an artificial concept.

I think work is a good thing fundamentally, historically speaking, like - it's what we do as a species that makes us different from animals. I just think in this society we are doing mostly the wrong thing for the wrong reason because we're not working for our own good primarily, but that of a small class who rule us.

</abstract and probably getting off topic>

 

[Blagsta]

Having a focus and doing something meaningful and fulfilling is important. That's not often the same thing as "work" though.

 

[Blagsta]

Nothing much, however it means that people can stand on their own two feet and have a sense of self worth.

And have more of a self of righteousness in themselves for what is just and act collectively for social revolution

This idea that people ever "stand on their own two feet" seems to me to be a very Liberal idea - we are all independent individuals. Except we're not of course, we're all dependent on others. The idea that work automatically instills a sense of self worth seems like another Liberal idea.

You hold some funny views for a socialist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Does anyone else have less of a sense of self-worth when they're working?

I always found that slogging my arse off doing something terribly dull for as little money as they could get away with in order to make someone else rich severely LOWERED my self-worth, as I got to look at my pay packet compared to my surplus value and assign a terribly low number to it.

I've done a few jobs in my time that made me feel worthless, and not through a comparison of amount of labour to size of wage, but through comparison of the odiousness of the particular labour to my sense of self.

 

[Nigel]

This idea that people ever "stand on their own two feet" seems to me to be a very Liberal idea - we are all independent individuals. Except we're not of course, we're all dependent on others. The idea that work automatically instills a sense of self worth seems like another Liberal idea.

You hold some funny views for a socialist.

What do you mean by liberal?

 

[Blagsta]

Individualism, work being great, that kind of stuff. I struggle to see anything socialist in your posts.

 

[Spion]

The idea that work automatically instills a sense of self worth seems like another Liberal idea.

I think work should instill self worth. It's what we do that separates us from animals. But, sadly, we don't work for 'ourselves' as humankind but for a small class of exploiters, so it's their worth we actually work for

 

[Blagsta]

I'll repeat what I said earlier.

Having a focus and doing something meaningful and fulfilling is important. That's not often the same thing as "work" though.

 

[Nigel]

Individualism, work being great, that kind of stuff. I struggle to see anything socialist in your posts.

So you would rather that people were weak spineless fuckwits relying on handouts, rather thanstanding up on their own two feet and in a position to fight for their rights. I can't see a bunch of doley scroungers refusing to conform to the system changing anything, rather than sabotaging genuine workers struggles for change.

The paternal state has led to this weakening of people, both individually and collectively. I would see this as having more of a wishy washy liberal outlook than trying to get people off their backsides and doing something.

I'm sure that great socialist thinkers such as Marx, Engels and even Proudhon was very critical of Lumpen Proletarian Elements.
Great Socialist leaders such as Stalin, Mao & even Tito were'nt that accomodating of them ever.

As one leading light in the Communist Movement once explained to me..."Their nothing but filthy scavengers"
I would'nt go that far, but I can understand where he's and other people from that ilk are coming from.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Deutschland, Deutschland über alles..."

 

[teqniq]

"Deutschland, Deutschland über alles..."

Only if it's the Dead Kennedys version....

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Why is it....

...that to incentivise rich people you pay them more...

...but to incentivise poor people you threaten them with redundancy or repossession of their homes and possessions?

Why is it...

...that when poor people try to get the better of the tax man it's called "benefit fraud" ...

...but when rich people do it it's called "offshore investment" or "having a non-domiciled tax status"?

 

[northernhord]

Why is it....

...that to incentivise rich people you pay them more...

...but to incentivise poor people you threaten them with redundancy or repossession of their homes and possessions?

Why is it...

...that when poor people try to get the better of the tax man it's called "benefit fraud" ...

...but when rich people do it it's called "offshore investment" or "having a non-domiciled tax status"?

One Law for the Poor, one law for the whore.

 

[Blagsta]

So you would rather that people were weak spineless fuckwits relying on handouts, rather thanstanding up on their own two feet and in a position to fight for their rights. I can't see a bunch of doley scroungers refusing to conform to the system changing anything, rather than sabotaging genuine workers struggles for change.

The paternal state has led to this weakening of people, both individually and collectively. I would see this as having more of a wishy washy liberal outlook than trying to get people off their backsides and doing something.

I'm sure that great socialist thinkers such as Marx, Engels and even Proudhon was very critical of Lumpen Proletarian Elements.
Great Socialist leaders such as Stalin, Mao & even Tito were'nt that accomodating of them ever.

As one leading light in the Communist Movement once explained to me..."Their nothing but filthy scavengers"
I would'nt go that far, but I can understand where he's and other people from that ilk are coming from.

You didn't understand my post did you.

 

[Blagsta]

Great Socialist leaders such as Stalin, Mao & even Tito were'nt that accomodating of them ever.

Actually, you're a bit of a dick aren't you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nothing much, however it means that people can stand on their own two feet and have a sense of self worth.

And have more of a self of righteousness in themselves for what is just and act collectively for social revolution

Does wage slavery equate to "self-respect" in your book? As for "self-righteousness" that's a rather unfortunate turn of phrase, since it conjures up images of you hectoring posters for being unemployed.

 

[_angel_]

Actually, you're a bit of a dick aren't you.

A bit?

 

[treelover]

Nigel, are you winding us all up, you must be, 'Mao the great leader'? 'filthy scavengers' go on, tell us its (rather laboured) satire?

 

[dennisr]

Nigel, are you winding us all up, you must be, 'Mao the great leader'? 'filthy scavengers' go on, tell us its (rather laboured) satire?

just 'rather laboured' i reckon

fuck whats wrong with P&P has it become 'depressive's and hyper-manic's corner' or something? (i mean, i know theres element of that in all those politico types but...)

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not sure he is on the wind up. It's been a fairly consistent theme of his over the past while.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Only if it's the Dead Kennedys version....

That was "California über alles", and the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy version of it was quite good too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you would rather that people were weak spineless fuckwits relying on handouts, rather thanstanding up on their own two feet

Has anyone said that?
No, they haven't, have they?
Windbag.

...and in a position to fight for their rights.

For about 50 years we had things called "Claimant Unions", where the unemployed etc could at least organise to "fight for their rights".
Nowadays, for some strange reason, "Claimant Unions" don't last long. Nothing to do with punitive measures being taken against those who form them for rendering themselves "unavailable for work", though, apparently.

I can't see a bunch of doley scroungers refusing to conform to the system changing anything, rather than sabotaging genuine workers struggles for change.

Must be fun living in a world so non-complex that if something doesn't fit into category A it must, ipso facto, fit into category B.

The paternal state has led to this weakening of people, both individually and collectively. I would see this as having more of a wishy washy liberal outlook than trying to get people off their backsides and doing something.

Ah, but your problem appears to be that you're so blinkered you don't actually "see" anything.

I'm sure that great socialist thinkers such as Marx, Engels and even Proudhon was very critical of Lumpen Proletarian Elements.

I think you'll find there are classificatory differences between their definitions and yours.

Great Socialist leaders such as Stalin, Mao & even Tito were'nt that accomodating of them ever.

As you should know, calling yourself a socialist doesn't actually make you a socialist.

As one leading light in the Communist Movement once explained to me..."Their nothing but filthy scavengers"
I would'nt go that far, but I can understand where he's and other people from that ilk are coming from.

Because you too are an elitist.