The other side of the migration debate; Brits leaving the UK

[pseudonarcissus]

Yes the locals in Dubai would be very 'chilled' given that they live in a country where free speech is banned, trades unions and political parties illegal and not a single member of the majority of the population has any legal rights at all. The locals then live a parasitical existence which is supported by opil revenues and protected by the military of the USA.

but the oppressed live behind big high walls and are transported to work in old school busses very early in the morning so people quite forget they exist....so that's OK

I think UAE is pretty scary....some how Saudi seems better as at least the poverty isn't hidden

 

[neprimerimye]

but the oppressed live behind big high walls and are transported to work in old school busses very early in the morning so people quite forget they exist....so that's OK

I think UAE is pretty scary....some how Saudi seems better as at least the poverty isn't hidden

Yes Saudi does seem preferable to UAE less chance of one having to mix with common types such as the Beckhams.

 

[fela fan]

Yes the locals in Dubai would be very 'chilled' given that they live in a country where free speech is banned, trades unions and political parties illegal and not a single member of the majority of the population has any legal rights at all. The locals then live a parasitical existence which is supported by opil revenues and protected by the military of the USA.

It's a struggle to find something in this post that is correct.

Can you tell me how speech can be banned?

 

[Red Faction]

im probably going to leave the UK

last year over 250 newly qualified doctors from london medical schools were left jobless
it will increase now as more EU docs are let in
so after 5 years of study, and at great cost to the british taxpayer
and with personal debt of AT LEAST 30k
i will be presented with 2 options,
emigrate or sign on.

im not signing on.

so...
ireland, australia and new zealand are the big 3 im considering...

shame really- i went to uni with the intention of practising medicine in this country- but they just wont let me

 

[neprimerimye]

It's a struggle to find something in this post that is correct.

Can you tell me how speech can be banned?

Are you arguing that free speech and freedom of the press, let alone the right to organise labour unions and political parties are current in the UAE? Indeed are you arguing that the ruling elite in the UAe are a tiny parasitical group supported by the labour of others and backed by the force of US guns?

If so you are an even bigger lying shithead than I take you for.

 

[neprimerimye]

im probably going to leave the UK

last year over 250 newly qualified doctors from london medical schools were left jobless
it will increase now as more EU docs are let in
so after 5 years of study, and at great cost to the british taxpayer
and with personal debt of AT LEAST 30k
i will be presented with 2 options,
emigrate or sign on.

im not signing on.

so...
ireland, australia and new zealand are the big 3 im considering...

shame really- i went to uni with the intention of practising medicine in this country- but they just wont let me

Come now be hionest you are going to emigrate to a country where your skills command top dollar. End of story.

Nobody is preventing you from practicing medicine you're just greedy.

 

[Red Faction]

Nobody is preventing you from practicing medicine you're just greedy.

last year over 250 newly qualified doctors from london medical schools were left jobless

does not wanting to sign on really count as greed?

 

[Fruitloop]

Well quite. Heaven save us from dreary Marxists!

 

[Julie]

Why don't you all move to Oz? Sydney, preferably.

Bugger it; that's an order

 

[treelover]

What a ridiculous comment, no wonder the left is fucked!

Come now be hionest you are going to emigrate to a country where your skills command top dollar. End of story.

Nobody is preventing you from practicing medicine you're just greedy.

 

[jæd]

does not wanting to sign on really count as greed?

Well... Have you applied for any jobs and been turned down...?

 

[neprimerimye]

does not wanting to sign on really count as greed?

Come now don't be silly. If you wish to work there are options for a wo/man with your qualifications. Perhaps not at the salary you might hope for perhaps not in the speciality you want to work in but employment there most certainly is. There is moreover no shame in signing on if you need to do so.

Indeed if traditional forms of employment proof difficult to find at present perhaps you might consider volunteering for MSF? I note that in comparison to say France few doctors chose to do so although they are remunerated while thus employed. moreover such an experience is considere by many to both personally rewarding and advantageous in the jobs market.

But perhaps your real problem is with the increased competition from other doctors from the new EU countries? In which case I note that this country needs more not fewer doctors working fewer not more hours. One barrier to this historically being the restrictive practices of your professional body.

 

[Yossarian]

PC shit, massive tax and a system of law that allows criminals to get away with whatever in case it upsets their human rights.
An immigration system that allows the lazy and greedy to enter while excluding those who wish to work or better themselves.

I haven't got the slightest problem with any of those things, in fact, I think the high tax rate to pay for social services and the reasonably enlightened immigration policy are two of the things that people in this country have to be proud of.

One of the reasons that I am going to moving abroad again, though besides the crappy weather and a desire for a change of scenery, is that there's too many people like Fred in this country and the next government is likely to be one they'll like a lot.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Come now don't be silly. If you wish to work there are options for a wo/man with your qualifications. Perhaps not at the salary you might hope for perhaps not in the speciality you want to work in but employment there most certainly is.

The problem is that such a well qualified person, saddled with student debt, might be forced to engage in employment with some managerial or supervisory component and would thus become member of the paracitical bourgeoisie. It's a loose-loose situlation Red Faction is bound to become a paracite if he does almost anything EXCEPT sign on.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

I miss British weather. I went for a swim in the sea yesterday. The water was 87F (30C). Not exactly bracing.

Te weather just seems such a, well, trivial reason to move

 

[Fruitloop]

The problem is that such a well qualified person, saddled with student debt, might be forced to engage in employment with some managerial or supervisory component and would thus become member of the paracitical bourgeoisie. It's a loose-loose situlation Red Faction is bound to become a paracite if he does almost anything EXCEPT sign on.

I reckon also that a protracted spell on the dole could well be the kiss of death to any aspirations to be a doctor. Also, a lot of people I know seem to be finding it most difficult to find work straight after they qualify, when the lack of relevant experience makes it particularly hard to find anything outside the obvious channels.

Edited to add: my own experience of borrowing money to study was pretty unpleasant as well. Career development loans and stuff want their money back more or less as soon as you finish studying, and they don't much care whether you're gainfully employed or not. Cue bailiffs, CCJs and all manner of nastyness...

 

[neprimerimye]

The problem is that such a well qualified person, saddled with student debt, might be forced to engage in employment with some managerial or supervisory component and would thus become member of the paracitical bourgeoisie. It's a loose-loose situlation Red Faction is bound to become a paracite if he does almost anything EXCEPT sign on.

Assuming that our friend pursues a career as a doctor his work will inevitably include supervisary and managerial functions. Thus almost all GP's have some managerial function unless it is delegated to a practice mamager and even then they, the GP's, are the actual employers. And in the hospitals even the most junior doctor has some similar functions with regard to clinical work and as a result of their status the step into senior executive positions is by no means rare.

Although they are being slowly proletarianised their wage level and social status, not to mention business opportunities arising as a result of their oprimary occupation, serve to make doctors not bourgeois but a part opf the new middle classes or petty bourgeois if you lie.

I should say i'm sympathetic to our friends plight but there is work for doctors here if he wishes to take it. Just ot at the salary or in the specialities he might prefer.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

.....serve to make doctors not bourgeois but a part opf the new middle classes or petty bourgeois if you lie.

....and therefore paracites expoiting the working classes, and is therefore the enemy. If you're going to be a paracite you might as well do it in a sunnier clime.

I just think spending so much time defining strict, clearly deliniated class structures is just the navel gazing of the irrelevant left.

We are straying from the point.

I still don't see the problem with people drawing their UK pensions, state or otherwise, and living in the sun. Voting in UK elections is debatable.

The "brain drain" aspects when highly educated people choose to leave in order find a suitable job, or where the rewards are greater is a problem. I went to the hospital in the USA a couple of years ago and saw 3 doctors. They were from Jamaica, India and Nigeria. All of them were trained in the NHS.

Then there appear to be the people that just dislike the UK because of the weather, the crime, liberal tendancies, lack of capital punishment etc. I suspect these people aren't missed terribly.

 

[jæd]

....and therefore paracites expoiting the working classes, and is therefore the enemy. If you're going to be a paracite you might as well do it in a sunnier clime.

Isn't the point of being a doctor in the NHS to help the "working classes"

 

[neprimerimye]

....and therefore paracites expoiting the working classes, and is therefore the enemy. If you're going to be a paracite you might as well do it in a sunnier clime.

I just think spending so much time defining strict, clearly deliniated class structures is just the navel gazing of the irrelevant left.

We are straying from the point.

I still don't see the problem with people drawing their UK pensions, state or otherwise, and living in the sun. Voting in UK elections is debatable.

The "brain drain" aspects when highly educated people choose to leave in order find a suitable job, or where the rewards are greater is a problem. I went to the hospital in the USA a couple of years ago and saw 3 doctors. They were from Jamaica, India and Nigeria. All of them were trained in the NHS.

Then there appear to be the people that just dislike the UK because of the weather, the crime, liberal tendancies, lack of capital punishment etc. I suspect these people aren't missed terribly.

If one is interested in pursuing the class war to a succesful conclusion, as you are not, then attempting to uncover the delineations of class is by no means irrelevant. Although, alas, the far left is.

As for UK pensioners drawing their pensions on the costas or Florida i have no problem with that at all. I object to those who do so and then witter on about how crap this country is - of course its shite largely cos of such people - and then once their capital runs out return to use its social services.

Not sure what problems with crime or liberalism you think we have in the UK. In actual fact this is a viciously illiberal country - we are not permitted the elementary democratic freedom of the right to ber firearms for example - with rerlatively little serious crime. Unless one defines mass murder in Iraq as a crime or the endemic tax avoidance of the rich as such.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

If one is interested in pursuing the class war to a succesful conclusion, as you are not....

I don't belive there is ever a sucessful conclusion to war, any war.

As for UK pensioners drawing their pensions on the costas or Florida i have no problem with that at all. I object to those who do so and then witter on about how crap this country is ... and then once their capital runs out return to use its social services.

Fair point. Whether these people should be a burdon to their adopted country (probably less affluent) I'm not sure. The problem would apparently be in people failing to provide adequately for their retirement as you can run out of capital in the UK too.

Not sure what problems with crime or liberalism you think we have in the UK.

I don't but Fred appears to.

...we are not permitted the elementary democratic freedom of the right to ber firearms for example

There is no elementary democratic freedom of the right to bear firearms. I remain a pacifist, see above.

Unless one defines mass murder in Iraq as a crime or the endemic tax avoidance of the rich as such.

I do

 

[neprimerimye]

I don't belive there is ever a sucessful conclusion to war, any war.

There is no elementary democratic freedom of the right to bear firearms.

Depends on which side one is on.

There is no democratic right to bear firearms and therein lies a problem.

Pacifist........

 

[Red Faction]

Assuming that our friend pursues a career as a doctor his work will inevitably include supervisary and managerial functions. Thus almost all GP's have some managerial function unless it is delegated to a practice mamager and even then they, the GP's, are the actual employers. And in the hospitals even the most junior doctor has some similar functions with regard to clinical work and as a result of their status the step into senior executive positions is by no means rare.

that is neither here nor there

Although they are being slowly proletarianised their wage level and social status, not to mention business opportunities arising as a result of their oprimary occupation, serve to make doctors not bourgeois but a part opf the new middle classes or petty bourgeois if you lie.

what is your issue?!
do people need doctors or not?
if no, then what does it matter if i emigrate?
if yes, then stop complaining and be grateful

I should say i'm sympathetic to our friends plight but there is work for doctors here if he wishes to take it. Just ot at the salary or in the specialities he might prefer.

no, clearly you didnt understand what i said earlier.
when you qualify, the NHS designates you a job as a PRHO in a random ward within a random trust according to what 'the computer' says.

last year 250 newly qualified london doctors were not allocated a job.
they are unemployed.

i didnt go to medical school so i can work in mcdonalds
if i cant practice medicine i will leave the country so that i can.

MSF only accepts you if something like... youve been an SHO for over two years and done x amount of time in A+E... i think
need to check up on that stat.

basically its not an option.

there are not enough jobs as PRHOs for all the doctors that qualify in the UK
and because of students who, i can only describe as UTTER UTTER CUNTS
in places like nottingham, the BMA hasnt yet come down on our side in the issure.
the jobs tend to be allocated in the trusts you qualify from.
nottingham and the north dont have this problem with unemployment- its london that is most badly affected

and those FUCKERS dont think its necessary for our union to take sides in a simple matter of representation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

as i said, i dont fully understand some of your above points
maybe we've got our wires crossed somewhere

 

[Red Faction]

Depends on which side one is on.
There is no democratic right to bear firearms and therein lies a problem.
Pacifist........

it would only be a problem if the people wanted that right and it was refused
why should we be able to have guns?

 

[neprimerimye]

it would only be a problem if the people wanted that right and it was refused
why should we be able to have guns?

Off topic but...

In fact we did once have th right to keep and bear weapons, including firearms, but that right was like so many other removed for reasons of state security. That is to say the ruling class disarmed the exploited and oppressed in order that the former could not effectively challange their misrule.

It is besides the point what the 'people', whoever they might be want, as the right to self defense is just that a right not something that can be limited or removed by decision of the 'people'.

 

[neprimerimye]

that is neither here nor there

what is your issue?!
do people need doctors or not?
if no, then what does it matter if i emigrate?
if yes, then stop complaining and be grateful

no, clearly you didnt understand what i said earlier.
when you qualify, the NHS designates you a job as a PRHO in a random ward within a random trust according to what 'the computer' says.

last year 250 newly qualified london doctors were not allocated a job.
they are unemployed.

i didnt go to medical school so i can work in mcdonalds
if i cant practice medicine i will leave the country so that i can.

MSF only accepts you if something like... youve been an SHO for over two years and done x amount of time in A+E... i think
need to check up on that stat. basically its not an option.

there are not enough jobs as PRHOs for all the doctors that qualify in the UK
and because of students who, i can only describe as UTTER UTTER CUNTS
in places like nottingham, the BMA hasnt yet come down on our side in the issure.
the jobs tend to be allocated in the trusts you qualify from.
nottingham and the north dont have this problem with unemployment- its london that is most badly affected

and those FUCKERS dont think its necessary for our union to take sides in a simple matter of representation.

You may be of the opinion that it is besides the point whether or not doctors have a managerial or supervisory function but is important with respect to their objective social class. My remark was in reply to the narcissist btw.

Of course people need doctors but they also need refuse coleectors. Should I be grateful to them too? Or is your petulance an example of the arrogance too many doctors seem blessed with?

OK you've made your position clearer and it is tight spot your in I admit. (I checked out MSF and you're right btw.) But this ever so precious attitude pisses people off. Look nobody studies for a degree in order to work in MacDonalds so your not unique in that. And there are other options open to you in terms of temporary employment that are not open to many other people with fewer qualifications even if MSF is not an option. Drug or medical supplies rep for example. Not good but it would be better than the dole until you do get a position.

The real question is why is there a shortage of positions for junior doctors? Here your remarks about Nottingham are confusing as I and i suspect others here have no idea what the problem is. Perhaps you could explain?

The real problem, if we move beyond the obvious attempt of the government to reduce beds in the NHS in oder to encourage privatisation of the health care industry, is that you lack any trade union representation. The BMA being both a regulatory body and a professional association is not a trades union. (Perhaps you see where the question of class comes in now?) And as such it represents the interests not of all doctors equally but of senior doctors and their interests. And it is in their interets to restrict entrance to their 'trade' thereby placing them in a position by virtue of which they can control not jkust the clinical aspects of their profession but the economic.

Frankly you ned to join a trade union for protection against senior doctors and managers every bit as much as any other members of staff in the NHS. Which of course is your problem in that you aren't in the NHS as yet. But the solution to that problem is societal not personal I'm afraid. I sympathise with your plight, if not your arrogance, but there are many in this country in far worse situations with far fewer, if any, options.

 

[Red Faction]

You may be of the opinion that it is besides the point whether or not doctors have a managerial or supervisory function but is important with respect to their objective social class. My remark was in reply to the narcissist btw.

Of course people need doctors but they also need refuse coleectors. Should I be grateful to them too? Or is your petulance an example of the arrogance too many doctors seem blessed with?

you're comment about doctors being petit bourgios seemed like a gripe at the profession- i didnt know what your issue with doctors was- do you want them or not?

OK you've made your position clearer and it is tight spot your in I admit. (I checked out MSF and you're right btw.) But this ever so precious attitude pisses people off. Look nobody studies for a degree in order to work in MacDonalds

no i accept that- my point was when i qualify i dont want to do anything except practice medicine, and if that oppurtunity isnt available in the UK, i will have to look elsewhere for it.
being a drugs rep just isnt an option- its a waste of a lot of money really to train doctors and then not employ them.

The real question is why is there a shortage of positions for junior doctors? Here your remarks about Nottingham are confusing as I and i suspect others here have no idea what the problem is. Perhaps you could explain?

these links might help: http://www.medical-student.co.uk/issues/current/files/March2006.pdf
http://www.medical-student.co.uk/issues/current/files/April2006.pdf

The real problem, is that you lack any trade union representation. The BMA being both a regulatory body and a professional association is not a trades union. (Perhaps you see where the question of class comes in now?) And as such it represents the interests not of all doctors equally but of senior doctors and their interests. And it is in their interets to restrict entrance to their 'trade' thereby placing them in a position by virtue of which they can control not jkust the clinical aspects of their profession but the economic.

Frankly you ned to join a trade union for protection against senior doctors and managers every bit as much as any other members of staff in the NHS. Which of course is your problem in that you aren't in the NHS as yet. But the solution to that problem is societal not personal I'm afraid. I sympathise with your plight, if not your arrogance, but there are many in this country in far worse situations with far fewer, if any, options.

the big unions- for misconduct and so on are the MDU and MPS.
they dont deal with large scale issues such as this, similarly the BMA dont deal with contractual disputes

 

[neprimerimye]

you're comment about doctors being petit bourgios seemed like a gripe at the profession- i didnt know what your issue with doctors was- do you want them or not?

no i accept that- my point was when i qualify i dont want to do anything except practice medicine, and if that oppurtunity isnt available in the UK, i will have to look elsewhere for it.
being a drugs rep just isnt an option- its a waste of a lot of money really to train doctors and then not employ them.

these links might help: http://www.medical-student.co.uk/issues/current/files/March2006.pdf
http://www.medical-student.co.uk/issues/current/files/April2006.pdf

the big unions- for misconduct and so on are the MDU and MPS.
they dont deal with large scale issues such as this, similarly the BMA dont deal with contractual disputes

Describing medical doctors as petty bourgeois, or more accurately new middle class, is not a gripe it is an objective judegement as to their class identity. Theres nothingsmart or clever being a worker in my opinion but it is, in my opinion, that class and that class only which can effect a solution to the looming crisis facing man. Its to the credit of the medical profession that so many of them have become good socialists.

Sure you want to practice medicine and if you cannot do so here then you will leave the country. I've no problem with that at all. It simply tells me that this country is mismanaged by a bunch of clowns. But if you want to practice medicine here then other worlk might be useful as a stopgap is all.

I'll check those links tomorrow. As for the BMA it doesn't deal with contractual affairs because its not a union. I'm not sure what the MDU or MPS are so cannot comment. But if they do ot deal with the larger issues that touch of those they represent then they are not properly representing their members. Without knowing more of them I suspect they operate in lockstep woth the BMA which operates for the benefit of senior doctors not for the benefit of the entire profession and patients. Its a class thing.....

 

[neprimerimye]

Just realised I do know what the MDU and MPS are. Mutuals not unions.

Such bodies do not represent doctors in the way that unions do as employees.

I'm not certain but AMICUS may have a section for doctors.

 

[kage]

Four out of those five are english speaking countries, bloody cowards!!

I emigrated to Québec ya cheeky bastard...