The other side of the migration debate; Brits leaving the UK

[neprimerimye]

Neprimermye (or however you spell it..) collapses into nationalist bollocks! Get on!

Firstly, pensions are deferred wages as far as I'm concerned. Or to look at it another way paople pay taxes and NI for 40 odd years, and that's what earns their right to their pension. Where they chose to spend it is up to them.

Second, a Spanish equivalent of the BNP would of course echo Nep's comments to the hilt, the people coming in are vermin, and should be dragged back where they came from.

What happened to 'No borders?' No borders except for Brit pensioners and ex-pats?

My impressions of this country after a few short days in France is that it is an insane, stressed out lunatric asylum. One short (as if!) car trip across Brum in the middle of the day was enough.. Fucking neo-liberal post Thatcher Blairite overworked underinvested dump. But it is home...

If pensions are deferred wages, they aren't in reality except with regard to private pension schemes by the way, then oly those who have paid into such schemes ought to have the right to be paid pesnsions. A position which if you are serious would lead to many of the most oppressed and economically marginal in this society being pushed further into poverty.

I've no objection to pensioners spending their pittacen anywhere they wish to do so. What I object to is those pensioners who fuck off out of Britain while railing against it being a dump while they continue to live of income derived from a country they affect to despise. If they dislike this country so much they ought not to draw on pensions paid for by the current workforce.

No Borders if fine by me. If pensioners wish to move away from this country thats fine by me too. I see no reason why they should be supported by workers currently living in Britain however but should draw a pension on the country they are now domiciled in. That is after all their home.

 

[neprimerimye]

neprimerimye - what are you on, ffs? You mean a British person shouldn't retain the right to vote or other rights they have as a citizen of the country they were born in if they dare have the gall to actually want to live in another country? You've gotta be on a wind-up, right?

Why should a person have the right to vote in a country in which they do not live? Especially when many living and working here do not. It offends against the very basis of democracy as being based on both rights and duties.

A person voting in elections for the imperial parliament will in theory be voting for a body which can increase taxation, abolish the NHS or go to war and none of these decisions will touch on the voter concerned in the least. What is democratic about such people making decisions will touch on the lives of citizens and non-citizens actually living in the country?

On the other hand those British citizens actually living abroad should have the right to vote in the country they are currently and permanently domiciled in.

 

[neprimerimye]

As stated above, your pension is not a benefit like the dole. I've paid, and continue to pay my national insurance contributions. In theory I'm investing for my own future but in reality I'm paying for neprimerimye's granny's pension.

In theory National Insurance supports welfare payments including pensions. In practice it is just another tax payment of which entitles those paying to benefits actually paid for out of general taxation. Which is why socialists advocate the abolition of NI as a regressive form of taxation.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

In theory National Insurance supports welfare payments including pensions. In practice it is just another tax payment of which entitles those paying to benefits actually paid for out of general taxation. Which is why socialists advocate the abolition of NI as a regressive form of taxation.

OK, but I am less paracitical, as an expat, than say, some one languishing on the dole in the UK

 

[kakuma]

i left britain cos the jobs were crap, and everything was too expensive

i'll go back there for a bit soon, but i dunno about settling there for a while, and this whole voting thing, well i'm prepared to sacrifice my right to that since its a fucking charade anyway

 

[neprimerimye]

OK, but I am less paracitical, as an expat, than say, some one languishing on the dole in the UK

The bourgeoisie is parasitical on the working class which produces all the wealth of society. Workers who are forced to claim the dole do so due to the irrational nature of bourgeois society and are not parasites.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

The bourgeoisie is parasitical on the working class which produces all the wealth of society. Workers who are forced to claim the dole do so due to the irrational nature of bourgeois society and are not parasites.

1/10 for trolling attempt

 

[pseudonarcissus]

The bourgeoisie is parasitical on the working class which produces all the wealth of society. Workers who are forced to claim the dole do so due to the irrational nature of bourgeois society and are not parasites.

we're back to the age-old debate. A lot has changed since Marx popped his clogs. (of course, Marx never did wear such working class footwear)

"Bourgeoise is defined as some one earning more than me." As we all now survive by selling our labour.

forget the now-ridiculous "working class hero" myth that only manual unskilled or semi-shilled labour is respectable. You live in an advanced western country which relies on the exploitation of the third world. You are as much a bourgeoise parasite as the next man.


Having said that, I'm surprised so many people moved abroad for negative reasons. I still love the UK and will probably return one day. I just thought it would be interesting to live overseas for a while, and the money was also an inducement. I don't bitch about blighty, or the natives when sipping my G&T on the varandah.

 

[neprimerimye]

we're back to the age-old debate. A lot has changed since Marx popped his clogs. (of course, Marx never did wear such working class footwear)

"Bourgeoise is defined as some one earning more than me." As we all now survive by selling our labour.

forget the now-ridiculous "working class hero" myth that only manual unskilled or semi-shilled labour is respectable. You live in an advanced western country which relies on the exploitation of the third world. You are as much a bourgeoise parasite as the next man.

Having said that, I'm surprised so many people moved abroad for negative reasons. I still love the UK and will probably return one day. I just thought it would be interesting to live overseas for a while, and the money was also an inducement. I don't bitch about blighty, or the natives when sipping my G&T on the varandah.

'We' don't all control the means of production and distribution however. But the boss class does.

The idea that workers in the advanced coutries are beneficiaries of the super exploitation of the former colonial countries is, as afar as i know, only mainatained by few ultra-ortho trots and various insane maoists. And a few clueless academics.

Why have you changed your name by the way?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I might change mine to "vermin".

 

[pseudonarcissus]

'We' don't all control the means of production and distribution however. But the boss class does.

The idea that workers in the advanced coutries are beneficiaries of the super exploitation of the former colonial countries is, as afar as i know, only mainatained by few ultra-ortho trots and various insane maoists. And a few clueless academics.

Why have you changed your name by the way?

I suspect the old folks claiming their pension in the sun are as likely to be former "workers" as former "bosses". Pensioners are "paracitical", and where they choose to live is neither here nor there, we, as a caring society, have a duty to look after them. As I said above, let's have an MP or two for expats, save the blue rinse brigade foisting a tory on you.

"Workers", by and large (i.e the less affluent), are more likely to shop at the local Asda/Walmart than a fairtrade boutique. Look at where all that is made and tell me there isn't significant exploitation going on.

it's years since I changed my name. the previous one was very boring

 

[neprimerimye]

I suspect the old folks claiming their pension in the sun are as likely to be former "workers" as former "bosses". Pensioners are "paracitical", and where they choose to live is neither here nor there, we, as a caring society, have a duty to look after them. As I said above, let's have an MP or two for expats, save the blue rinse brigade foisting a tory on you.

"Workers", by and large (i.e the less affluent), are more likely to shop at the local Asda/Walmart than a fairtrade boutique. Look at where all that is made and tell me there isn't significant exploitation going on.

it's years since I changed my name. the previous one was very boring

A user name is for life not Christmas.

I can assure you that many working class pensioners are unable to afford to move to sunnier climes. How for example could a worker retiring on a state pension be able to afford to BUY a retuirement home on the costas?

In which country, as you have dual nationality, do you vote? The one you live, work and pay taxes in or here? Just curious.

If anybody were to do a driveby on the local fair trade boutiques i would piss myself with laughter.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

I can assure you that many working class pensioners are unable to afford to move to sunnier climes. How for example could a worker retiring on a state pension be able to afford to BUY a retuirement home on the costas?

"assure you" . . . calls out for a "please provide references" retort.
Hows about renting, and away from the tourist areas? (rhetorical question 'cos clearly you don't have a scooby).

(bet you have wet dreams about being on the Grunwick picket line don't you?)

 

[neprimerimye]

"assure you" . . . calls out for a "please provide references" retort.
Hows about renting, and away from the tourist areas? (rhetorical question 'cos clearly you don't have a scooby).

(bet you have wet dreams about being on the Grunwick picket line don't you?)

Try talking to a few pensoners or is that too difficult for you?

I dream of French film stars not long past picket lines.

 

[big footed fred]

Incidentally, if Fred emigrated almost anywhere else, certainly in Western Europe, he would find that the tax was higher, the sentences were lower and the health and safety regulations tighter. However, he'd find plenty of pig ignorance to match his own.

Indeed, one could observe that the only reason people in the UK are able to believe the sort of crap that Fred believes is that they know so little about anywhere else.

Why the hell would I want to stay in Western Europe?
All hung up with the same crap.
Odd that the place I would like to go, if anywhere, is Malaysia.

The tax is lower
The criminal justice system is stacked well against the criminal (still have flogging and death on the list of things to do with bastards)
Health and safety regulations are a little too slack but they don't have the daft "I'll sue you" bit that we have.
It's not perfect but it is a nice place and they have yet to piss about with the shit we have to put up with.

It's a forward thinking country that allows most people to just get on with their lives and does it without the hang ups that we see here.
Only time you hear racism mentioned is when some daft brit takes exception to something. very little problem in the street. You can walk past a large gang of lads at night and all that happens is they want to talk.
A girl can walk alone with almost no chance of being attacked and no hassle from pissed up bastards.

Why is this ?
Easy - they grew up to respect others and if someone steps too far out of line they get hammered.
last year I read of two robbers stealing a girls bag. Four local lads chased them in thier car, rammed the criminals off the motorbike they were escaping on, and beat them up before calling the police.
The criminals got six lashes of the rotan (bamboo cane), six months in the nick and deported as they were illegals.
The four lads got a handshake from the cops.

Islam is seen as a religion of peace and they just accept that others want to pray another way.
I have made many good friends out there from all three major groups including the majority muslims and the more I see, the more I like the way they are.
It may not be perfect but from Britain teaching them up to 50 back they have some things we could well do with learning from them now.

If you have never been out there DF I suggest you go. May show you that all this lefty PC shit is a waste of time and life is better with it in the bin. Europe is a shit hole infested with daft regulation and we hunt for biggots like the yanks were hunting "reds under the bed".
It's when you see another world that you come to see how crap Europe is.

 

[jæd]

If you have never been out there DF I suggest you go. May show you that all this lefty PC shit is a waste of time and life is better with it in the bin. Europe is a shit hole infested with daft regulation and we hunt for biggots like the yanks were hunting "reds under the bed".
It's when you see another world that you come to see how crap Europe is.

Well in loony left wing PC, sue you culture London, I can go out to a gay bar, take some pills and then have a naughty time with a dildo and only be arrested for the pills. (homosexuality is illegal, as is supplying sex toys*) And at least in the UK I'll still be alive after dealing with the cops.

Not to wsay that Malayisa isn't a nice place, just not somewhere I could see myself living at the moment. Right at the moment, several blind eyes are applied to what goes on in KL. But I'd rather laws protecting me...

*Story in the local KL paper two years or so where a shopkeeper was sent to gaol for two years....

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Try talking to a few pensoners or is that too difficult for you?
. . .

So you can't back up your assertion.
Next.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

I can assure you that many working class pensioners are unable to afford to move to sunnier climes. How for example could a worker retiring on a state pension be able to afford to BUY a retuirement home on the costas?

I agree, you've got no chance on the state pension if that is your only income. Work for the NCB, British Shipbuilders, the council, the civil service for 40 years and you have a final salery pension scheme and you are not, generally, in poverty and may have a few bob to spare. I'm not trying to justify the level of the state pension, and I'm under no illusions that most final salery schemes will disappear before long.

In which country, as you have dual nationality, do you vote? The one you live, work and pay taxes in or here? Just curious.

I don't. I live in the USA but remain a British subject. I pay taxes both places, but mainly in the US.

We are sort of getting side tracked here. Surely we should strive for a society where we can all have a dacha on the costa del sol, rather than demonizing those that already have them.

 

[big footed fred]

Well in loony left wing PC, sue you culture London, I can go out to a gay bar, take some pills and then have a naughty time with a dildo and only be arrested for the pills. (homosexuality is illegal, as is supplying sex toys*) And at least in the UK I'll still be alive after dealing with the cops.

Not to wsay that Malayisa isn't a nice place, just not somewhere I could see myself living at the moment. Right at the moment, several blind eyes are applied to what goes on in KL. But I'd rather laws protecting me...

*Story in the local KL paper two years or so where a shopkeeper was sent to gaol for two years....

There are bars where gays go and are left alone by the cops as long as they stay in their own circle.
I know how to get drugs in KL but choose not to. A guy called Man will be happy to supply you but for reasons that are clear I'm not going to post where he hangs put.
I have a rather nice photo of a cop smoking a fatty that again I can't post.
Have real sex seems to be the answer to the last but sex toys are available and the cops leave the sellers alone as long as it's quiet.

It is also true that many cops take "coffee money" to become blind but at the same time a girl can walk down the street with little fear of rape or other attack.
The place isn't perfect but it's system is biased to looking after the victim and human rights are second to keeping bastards off the street.
I have to admit it was nice to walk around and have no worry about drunken gangs and to know that those I know in Malaysia are safe and well.
I see the saturday night shit in city centres here and wonder who has it right.
We have pissed up gangs fighting and there they have armed cops with fucking big sticks so no one starts in the first place.
Suits me.

 

[big footed fred]

*Story in the local KL paper two years or so where a shopkeeper was sent to gaol for two years....

Why ?

 

[Julie]

'The most popular choices for emigration were Australia*, Spain, Canada, New Zealand and the US.'

*But of course

 

[fela fan]

So you were educated in Britain and then took whatever skills you have to another country but if things go badly you plan on returning to Britain and using services which you have not contributed towards? Parasite.

Whatever education you got, it didn't teach you to read very well. I will never willingly go back to britain, so how do you come to think i will go back if 'things go badly'?

The skills i use to make money in this other part of the world i didn't have when i lived in england. Furthermore it's not very clear exactly what skills one learns at school.

You see nations, i see one earth, one planet, one people. Whatever skills i have, there for other people, of any colour or race. Matters not to me. I owe britain nothing, i owe humanity.

You see parasites. Hope you improve your karma one day mate.

 

[fela fan]

neprimerimye - what are you on, ffs? You mean a British person shouldn't retain the right to vote or other rights they have as a citizen of the country they were born in if they dare have the gall to actually want to live in another country? You've gotta be on a wind-up, right?

Fela - your comment about moving to Thailand because of capitalism in Britain made me smile - as if the Thais haven't embraced capitalism! You make it sound like the whole country is just hanging out under a palm tree, when really they have a thriving capitalist system. Nothing wrong with that.
I love the Thais and their country and culture, btw.

Hang on a moment mate! I didn't move anywhere coz of capitalism. I moved coz i wanted to see more of the world. And strictly speaking i never moved, never intended to emigrate. I just went with a grand and a one-way ticket, and simply never went home, in fact thailand is my home now. (But i'd say in 91, the capital had only one or two shopping malls, it took off in a big way at the beginning of the 90s.)

Yes, the country is doing its best over capitalism, the disease is here okay. But i do discern between capitalism (inherent in humans i believe) and the rampant variety that leaves us with the appalling wealth gap. Thailand is unfortunately going the way of all developing countries, ie the way pointed out by US, european countries. Horrible.

I've spent a considerable amount of my time hanging out under a palm tree, and the great thing is that the embrace of capitalism does not affect this particular pastime.

In many ways, thailand is fantasyland, and i feel most lucky to have basically accidentally found the country.

 

[fela fan]

I'm not better than anybody. Only an arrogant clown believes his/herself superior to others.

Well, at the minute i have to conclude you are an arrogant clown then. You may say you're not superior to others, but the way you go on about 'parasites' (with me being one of them), you have identified people who are inferior to yourself.

 

[fela fan]

It's a forward thinking country that allows most people to just get on with their lives and does it without the hang ups that we see here.

...

Islam is seen as a religion of peace and they just accept that others want to pray another way.
I have made many good friends out there from all three major groups including the majority muslims and the more I see, the more I like the way they are.

Your post resonates with me mate. I have been there a few times and countries like that, and my thailand, have lots for europeans to learn from. But they're developed people, and know everything, and have nothing to learn. Arrogant about their failings! Apologetic for their successes. Bloody weird if you ask me.

Incidentally, on a trip back to UK once, i stopped in dubai and sharjah to see a mate for a few days, met a few local lads, and was most impressed by their peaceful and chilled out attitude towards life.

Thailand too will see almost no random violence. I've been here 15 years and seen just one beating up involving thai men. I've seen about three other fights, with glasses flying, but all involved european men...

 

[fela fan]

'The most popular choices for emigration were Australia*, Spain, Canada, New Zealand and the US.'

*But of course

Four out of those five are english speaking countries, bloody cowards!!

If politically i ever got chucked out of thailand (i have no rights whatsoever here) i'd choose australia first, then spain second. But not the sydney or melbourne australia, the FNQ australia. The former has the rampant western capitalism disease and all the attendant social problems that go with this unfair way of life.

 

[jæd]

Why ?

Because he was supplying sex toys...

 

[jæd]

The former has the rampant western capitalism disease and all the attendant social problems that go with this unfair way of life.

Um... Which part of Thailand did you live...? Is this some commnist enclave...?

 

[jæd]

We have pissed up gangs fighting and there they have armed cops with fucking big sticks so no one starts in the first place.
Suits me.

I thought the reason people wanted to leave the UK was becasue they didn't want to live in a police state...

 

[neprimerimye]

Incidentally, on a trip back to UK once, i stopped in dubai and sharjah to see a mate for a few days, met a few local lads, and was most impressed by their peaceful and chilled out attitude towards life.

Yes the locals in Dubai would be very 'chilled' given that they live in a country where free speech is banned, trades unions and political parties illegal and not a single member of the majority of the population has any legal rights at all. The locals then live a parasitical existence which is supported by opil revenues and protected by the military of the USA.