The NUJ's unjust boycott of Israel, why?

[fanciful]

But surely the difference between Israel and every other state in the world is that it is predicated on the oppression of others, the Palestinians. There are other horrible states, Zimbabwe, the USA/UK etc. all engaged in the slaughter of innocents in a gross scale, but unlike all these states, Israel can only exist as long as the oppression of the Palestinians continues. And it seems to me that's why the boycott is justified.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

thing is that an acutally boycott of isreali good outside of palestine isn't going to make a blind bit of difference in terms of activism it's nothing more than tokenism...

The biggest and most profitable market for the isreali good which 100% of the time will never been boycotted is the palestinian people. Largely due to the israeli prevention technqiues which stop exports from palestine and at times is total, and also becuase they prevent near enough all manufacturing from happening. so the boycott will fail until the (under the terms of the boycott) palestinians show soildarity with the boycott... which of course makes a mockery of the whole process far better to set in place a demand, if capitalist methodologies are your version of activism, for palestinain goods and services and then this will directly aide the palestinians...

is it unjust well not under the terms of the OP no but under the terms that it expects the largest importer to show solidarity with it in order for it to gain purchase and have any effect then yes it's unjust it's another way of beating the palestinian people...

most isreali goods with the exception of kibutz goods which are primarly design to economically break the palestinians, are made by palestinains any form of boycott will ultimaly cause more hardship to palestinains or conversely be so utterly unsucessful as to be nothing short of useless....

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Yeah all states are repressive, some more so than others. I'll ask again why don't the NUJ take an interest in other more repressive or do you think the NUJ and other bodies should just stick to Israel?

Didn't the BBC spend a huge some of cash recently to cover up its apparent biased reporting of Israeli affairs?

I don't know about the most recent BBC report, but I'm aware of some earlier research by independent academics from Glasgow uni

Bad News From Israel by Greg Philo et al.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/centres/mediagroup/badnews.htm

It kind of bust apart the assertions that the BBC has an anti-Israel bias, because if anything, it showed the reverse, it gave Israelis more airtime, and there were discrepancies in reporting, i.e. Israeli attacks on Palestinians were usually shown as retaliation, whereas Palestinian retaliation was usually shown as an attack, i.e. reports usually went along the lines of Palestinians attack, Israelis retaliate; they didn't intermittently flip over and report Israelis attack, Palestinians retaliate. (I purposely worded it like that, not intending to take one side or the other, but to highlight the chicken:egg nature of the attacks:retaliations.)

Like I said though, I don't know the results of the more recent BBC study. I can imagine either way it would be harmful:

* if it showed a pro-Israeli anti-Palestinian bias (i.e. if it came up with similar findings to the Glasgow study), then that could be tricky. I wouldn't want to be Alan Johnson if the BBC is reported conclusively to be biased against the Palestinians.

Alternatively:

* if it showed a pro-Palestinian anti-Israel bias, then the BBC would get more hate mail from American Zionists than it already does.

And while I don't have a clue about the contents of the report, and I'm just guessing, given the earlier findings of the earlier independent study, and given how difficult it is to report from the West Bank and Gaza, I'd be guessing the latest report, commissioned by the BBC, probably shows more of the same, i.e. pro-Israeli bias, but I might be wrong.

 

[Grandma Death]

Nor it doesn't happen on the same scale as say Zimbabwe where something like 300,000 people were turfed out their homes

Eh-what planet are you on firky?

How many palestinians do you think have been displaced since the creation of Israel?

 

[ymu]

I don't know about the most recent BBC report, but I'm aware of some earlier research by independent academics from Glasgow uni

Bad News From Israel by Greg Philo et al.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/centres/mediagroup/badnews.htm

It kind of bust apart the assertions that the BBC has an anti-Israel bias, because if anything, it showed the reverse, it gave Israelis more airtime, and there were discrepancies in reporting, i.e. Israeli attacks on Palestinians were usually shown as retaliation, whereas Palestinian retaliation was usually shown as an attack, i.e. reports usually went along the lines of Palestinians attack, Israelis retaliate; they didn't intermittently flip over and report Israelis attack, Palestinians retaliate. (I purposely worded it like that, not intending to take one side or the other, but to highlight the chicken:egg nature of the attacks:retaliations.)

Like I said though, I don't know the results of the more recent BBC study. I can imagine either way it would be harmful:

* if it showed a pro-Israeli anti-Palestinian bias (i.e. if it came up with similar findings to the Glasgow study), then that could be tricky. I wouldn't want to be Alan Johnson if the BBC is reported conclusively to be biased against the Palestinians.

Alternatively:

* if it showed a pro-Palestinian anti-Israel bias, then the BBC would get more hate mail from American Zionists than it already does.

And while I don't have a clue about the contents of the report, and I'm just guessing, given the earlier findings of the earlier independent study, and given how difficult it is to report from the West Bank and Gaza, I'd be guessing the latest report, commissioned by the BBC, probably shows more of the same, i.e. pro-Israeli bias, but I might be wrong.

Exactly.

The BBC were forced to take on a "Middle East" Czar a few years ago who now vets everything for anti-Israel "bias" (which usually boils down to reporting of fact as far as Zionists are concerned). Curiously, there is no equivalent checking for anti-Palestinian bias.

Consequently we get such gems as a BBC report on Tom Hurndall being fatally wounded in "an exchange of fire" - some weeks after his killer was convicted in Israel of manslaughter and of lying about there being an exchange of fire. On speaking to the producer at the BBC, her opinion was that to object to the use of this term to describe a one way hail of bullets directed at some Palestinian children and Tom was "nitpicking".

Or during the Gaza invasions, when Israel are busy bulldozing houses under the pretext of finding tunnels the BBC helpfully shows a map of the area sitting right on the border with Egypt - making the tunnel excuse more plausible, yet failing to question why bulldozers were more effective than geophysics equipment for locating said tunnels. Yet when the invasion moved on, miles away from the border, the same "looking for tunnels" excuse was used for indiscriminately bulldozing houses but mysteriously the BBC failed to show a map which would have blown the story wide apart.

"Bad News from Israel" is an excellent academic report (and very readable book). I'm not sure the recent BBC report will have come from quite so neutral a standpoint of there Israel Czar has had anything to do with it.

Another useful one, for people genuinely interested in trying to understand the situation, as opposed to simply declaring their opinion, is "Disenchantment" by an Israeli journalist, Daphna Baram, charting the Guardian newspaper's relationship with Israel - from one of its most vociferous supporters to one of its harshest critics.

 

[ymu]

Eh-what planet are you on firky?

How many palestinians do you think have been displaced since the creation of Israel?

You think he's thought about this at all?

700,000 Palestinians were "displaced" (aka ethnically cleansed, aka subject to genocidal practices) in 1947/48. Currently around 4 million are registered with the UN as refugees and a substantial but unknown number of others are unregistered. There are approximately 4 million Palestinians total remaining in The West Bank, Gaza and Israel. 250,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem have no citizenship or vote.

Israel was granted membership of the UN on condition that it fulfilled its obligations to existing UN resolutions at that time, which included allowing the return of all the refugees. These resolutions remain outstanding, as do an accumulated couple of hundred other resolutions to date. But hey, as long as they say they're free and democratic and noone's allowed to argue it's all OK, isn't it?

 

[nino_savatte]

no, but when asked about something that you your moral stance on can only be purely theoretical due to history it's an honest answer.

It's an excuse that was used in the run up to the Iraq War, among other things. The denial of history is one of the means employed by the ruling classes to brutalise citizenry and prosecute illegal wars for the benefit of greedy industrialists.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ya pair of fucking bores.

When was the last time you actually made a relevant and informed contribution to any of these threads? Never.

Go fuck yourself, Nutsboy.

 

[bluestreak]

It's an excuse that was used in the run up to the Iraq War, among other things. The denial of history is one of the means employed by the ruling classes to brutalise citizenry and prosecute illegal wars for the benefit of greedy industrialists.

it's not denying history nino, it's being honest enough to say that you can't say truly what would have done. i can tell you what i would have like to have done in those times on that issue, and what i definitely wouldn't have done, but due to not having been there at the time i can't tell you for sure. that's not denying history, that's a perfectly reasonable response.

 

[nino_savatte]

it's not denying history nino, it's being honest enough to say that you can't say truly what would have done. i can tell you what i would have like to have done in those times on that issue, and what i definitely wouldn't have done, but due to not having been there at the time i can't tell you for sure. that's not denying history, that's a perfectly reasonable response.

It's a convenient way to let oneself off the hook. The very same people weren't around during WWII but would have no problem with commemorating the victims of the Holocaust.

I wasn't around during the days of English Revolution but that doesn't mean that I can't discuss it or its consequences.

 

[ViolentPanda]

VP and Nino:

if you genuinely believe the OP is a troll, then I suggest your best course of action is to reappraise yourself of the term as a definition, or seek to become slightly more broad minded.

The points raised are more than reasonable and sound. I'd suggest that most right thinking people would at the very least have considered such a view as having salience.

You two, if you don't mind me saying, are really quite bitter, chewed up people.

Maybe you're orphans. Or dropped on the heads as children. Or maybe you just believe everything Indymedia and the Independent on Sunday tells you.

Either way, I'm more inclined to view you two nasty bitter cunts as trolls as Firky - your pathetic, thinly veiled anti-semitism could only appeal to the Stevie Wonders of the World of Political Insight.

Do us all a favour, and go give eachother a nice, fresh reach around and release all that pent up frustration, cos your writings are giving me a headache.

Ya pair of fucking bores.

Ah, right, I'm a self-hating Jew.

Nice one Pete, I haven't heard that one for at least a couple of months.

Tell you what. How about you actually set out where I've been "anti-Semitic", instead of just calling me names, so I can rip your "analysis" to shreds and make you look more stupid than you already do?

Deal?

E2A: I've PM'ed my reply to you as well as posting it here, so you can't claim you missed it. I wouldn't want you trying the old "I didn't reply 'cos I didn't see your challenge" schtick.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I am totally fucking disappointed in you. You seem to have lost the ability to see both sides of the coin, even going so far as to claim that there's "a huge amount of anti-Semitism connected with criticism of Israel".

I can see both sides. The Palestinians have been discriminated against and that is WRONG. The question is how to redress this without involving more killing. Its a fact there ARE Islamist groups and fellow travellers who are peppering anti Israeli propaganda with a shit load of anti semitic stuff. There will always be a current of anti semitism within Islam the same as there is this current amongst certain Christians - its there it happens. What bothers me is that some mosques and uni Islamic societies are allowing poisonous rhetoric to be promlugated of a type that if directed at them would immediatly and rightly invoke cries of Islamophobia.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Plus it is hard to ignore that arabic states are pretty oppresive, Israel has had a female prime minster, foreign minsters and some of the most sexist regimes in the world are arabic states such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and of course Hamas.

All the good things about Israel are ignored, is it not the only state in the Middle East where the government is elected by its people, albeit women, arabs, muslims, gays. Criticism of Israeli policies are openly talked about in the israeli haaretz (sp?) newspaper.

If I was gay, if I was a woman, I know where I'd choose to live in the Middle East!

Spot on. I wonder how many people on the left who should know better and who moan about Israel would be prepared to live under some of the disgusting oppressive regimes that surround Israel.

Want to try being an independent woman or a gay man in Saudi Arabia for instance? Didn't think so.

Someone earlier said Olmert is not Mugabe well even Mugabe isn't as bad as some of the regimes that have not had the fraction of the criticism from western groups. Where are the high profile Justice For Burma groups? why isn't the SWP aligning itself with oppressed Zimbabwans etc?

I would have no problem at all with valid criticism of Israel (and fuck me there is a lot to criticise) if there was an equal level of criticism aimed at really oppressive regimes like Burma, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Egypt etc etc etc.

 

[fanciful]

That is complete crap. Obviously the left do campaign against injustice across the world, including in Zimbabwe etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I can see both sides. The Palestinians have been discriminated against and that is WRONG. The question is how to redress this without involving more killing. Its a fact there ARE Islamist groups and fellow travellers who are peppering anti Israeli propaganda with a shit load of anti semitic stuff. There will always be a current of anti semitism within Islam the same as there is this current amongst certain Christians - its there it happens. What bothers me is that some mosques and uni Islamic societies are allowing poisonous rhetoric to be promlugated of a type that if directed at them would immediatly and rightly invoke cries of Islamophobia.

You're contradicting yourself, is it mostly Islamic anti-Semitism, or is it "a huge amount of anti semitism connected with criticism of Israel a lot of which is coming from pro palestinian groups and their cheerleaders in groups like Respect and in unions etc and within campus Islamic societies. I think that basically well meaning people have been given propaganda and have taken it as fact" (your post #3 on this thread)?

I'm quite aware anti-Semitism exists, and the degree of it. I've been given enough insults, kickings and plain hassle to know that fact in spades, but I don't use my personal experience to justify coming out with ill-thought out sentiments about there being a "huge amount" of it, there isn't. There are pockets of it, same as there have always been.

I know you're full of the desire to explore your new faith, and I've no doubt you'll want to "fit in" with the prevailing sentiments of those people you might meet at synagogue, but that's no reason to don a pair of blinkers, is it?

Try reading stuff on this subject you posted a year or two years ago, and compare it with what you've posted in the last couple of months, then answer me these questions (if you don't mind):
1) Do your cirrent sentiments accord with your previous sentiments, and
2) If not, why not?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Spot on. I wonder how many people on the left who should know better and who moan about Israel would be prepared to live under some of the disgusting oppressive regimes that surround Israel.

Want to try being an independent woman or a gay man in Saudi Arabia for instance? Didn't think so.

Someone earlier said Olmert is not Mugabe well even Mugabe isn't as bad as some of the regimes that have not had the fraction of the criticism from western groups. Where are the high profile Justice For Burma groups? why isn't the SWP aligning itself with oppressed Zimbabwans etc?

I would have no problem at all with valid criticism of Israel (and fuck me there is a lot to criticise) if there was an equal level of criticism aimed at really oppressive regimes like Burma, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Egypt etc etc etc.

The state of Israel is regarded as a democracy. None of the other countries you mention are.

People expect more from Israel because of their democratic and secular credentials, what they don't expect is state violence often more savage than anything Egypt, for example, has conducted in the last 30 years.

Oh, and don't equate a lack of will or action by the intellectually-geriatric trot left with a lack of criticism on those issues by rational people.

 

[Pete the Greek]

Ah, right, I'm a self-hating Jew.

Nice one Pete, I haven't heard that one for at least a couple of months.

Tell you what. How about you actually set out where I've been "anti-Semitic", instead of just calling me names, so I can rip your "analysis" to shreds and make you look more stupid than you already do?

Deal?

E2A: I've PM'ed my reply to you as well as posting it here, so you can't claim you missed it. I wouldn't want you trying the old "I didn't reply 'cos I didn't see your challenge" schtick.

I think this paranoia over me calling you self loathing is a bit of a tell-tell sign of your own insecurities mate. I never called you self loathing and I have zero idea of your racial/ethnic/religious background, so how would I be able to call you a self loathing jew even if I wanted to?

I don't think you're self loathing, but I do strongly believe that your passionate feelings towards Israel belie your lurking anti-semitism, which may be witting or unwitting.

It is not logical or rational for you to form the biased, ridiculous opinions against Israel as you do. It is an isolated democracy amidst a field of wolves and aggressors. It is under potential siege ALL THE TIME. Of course it takes a certain tough line against the Palestintians. It's to secure the safety of citizens.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Either give concrete examples, or retract your accusation.

 

[Pete the Greek]

Either give concrete examples, or retract your accusation.

are you joining maddalene in the shit stirring stakes?

bugger off and mind your own business.

 

[laptop]

But the opposite is also true - many criticisms of anti-Semitic views are shouted down by saying 'you are pro-zionist'.

Show us an example. Just one.


Warning: you may have to think carefully. If you can see no difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism, you (a) would be taking a zionist line and (b) would see anti-semitism everywhere, yea even in odd corners of Ha'aretz.

 

[Pete the Greek]

Show us an example. Just one.


Warning: you may have to think carefully. If you can see no difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism, you (a) would be taking a zionist line and (b) would see anti-semitism everywhere, yea even in odd corners of Ha'aretz.

Why should he have to dredge out examples? it's patently obvious this is the norm in this forum

Fucking joke.

 

[laptop]

TAE, though wrong, will understand the question (whether he chooses to admit this or not).

PtG, you have never got beyond "My side good, everyone else... ug." Fuck off back to supporting your ice-hockey team or whatever floats your tribalist boat, and stop littering the forum, there's a good troll.

 

[Luther Blissett]

are you joining maddalene in the shit stirring stakes?

bugger off and mind your own business.

your pathetic, thinly veiled anti-semitism could only appeal to the Stevie Wonders of the World of Political Insight.

You accused a Jew of 'thinly veiled anti-semitism. In what way is this not my business?

This struggle for Jewish liberation is not only about Israel, but can be viewed as a wider struggle for liberation against all forms of oppression. In what way are Jews liberated when they live in a an oppressive, occupying society? How is racism, chauvinism, forced militarism to be thought of as 'freedom' for Jews? How is imprisonment upon refusal to seve in the Occupied Territories 'freedom for Jews'? How can it be that Jews are free of struggle for liberation when they are subject to homophobia in the State that was meant to keep them safe from 'antisemitism'? Outside of Israel, when most Americans cannot tell an Mizrahi (Arab) Jew from an Arab Muslim - how is that freedom from antisemitism?

You, Pete the Greek, resort to a common divisive stratgey, so often used in raging desparation by the American and Israeli far-right to label Jews against the occupation, anti/non/post-zionist Jews (living in our outside of Israel), Jews who speak out against atrocities made by the Israeli State in the name of achieving 'freedom from oppression for Jews', as 'self-hating', or 'less than Jewish', 'traitors', or in your case your unsubstantiated accusation of 'thinly veiled antisemitism' against ViolentPanda.

Please provide concrete evidence, as requested.

 

[bluestreak]

i know a lot of jews who would be very unhappy to discover that their opposition to certain israeli policies is anti-semetic. the argument is one only made by people who think it's an easy win and can;t argue the real points.

 

[Pete the Greek]

I'm almost tempted to view your ^ rant as a troll or flame tactic in itself...seeing as you have clearly misconstrued what I was saying.

I merely believe the views of Nino and VP to be misguided, in so far as

a) you can't get away from the fact that Israel is a democracy, and people vote for parties they want, in what is one of the most representative forms of democracy on earth. This is a simple fact that is over looked time and time and time again on this board. Laughable, seeing as Israel is a bit of a beacon when it comes to the region as a whole.

b) Perhaps Israel would not be so aggressive and reactionary in its stance towards peoples if it wasn't in the situtaton it is in. I.e. a State surrounded by enemies and terrorists. Cliche? probably. Just a shame it's true.

Anyone who can't understand these basic, crude, yet highly valid points, continuing to rail against "Zionism" like a true brainwashed SWP-y, is the real fucking idiot here. The real troll. Not me.

Don't try and swerve things by claiming I called people self loathing Jews which is blatantly something i wouldn't dream of doing.

Get a reality check, you people. FS.

 

[becky p]

VP and Nino:

if you genuinely believe the OP is a troll, then I suggest your best course of action is to reappraise yourself of the term as a definition, or seek to become slightly more broad minded.

The points raised are more than reasonable and sound. I'd suggest that most right thinking people would at the very least have considered such a view as having salience.

You two, if you don't mind me saying, are really quite bitter, chewed up people.

Maybe you're orphans. Or dropped on the heads as children. Or maybe you just believe everything Indymedia and the Independent on Sunday tells you.

Either way, I'm more inclined to view you two nasty bitter cunts as trolls as Firky - your pathetic, thinly veiled anti-semitism could only appeal to the Stevie Wonders of the World of Political Insight.

Do us all a favour, and go give eachother a nice, fresh reach around and release all that pent up frustration, cos your writings are giving me a headache.

Ya pair of fucking bores.

They really are a pair of self obsessed cretins.
I agree though that to criticise Israel is not in itself anti semitic.But those who seem to be obsessed about critcising Israel are.

 

[Pete the Greek]

They really are a pair of self obsessed cretins.
I agree though that to criticise Israel is not in itself anti semitic.But those who seem to be obsessed about critcising Israel are.

Two lines that pretty sum up my thoughts on the matter.

Now if everyone will excuse me, I'm done with this thread - I'm clearly not going to get anywhere discussing something where the dominators of the forum (VP and NINO) are intent on tag-teaming and going way overboard at every opportunity.

it's like trying to discuss ethics with a sociopath.

I give up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think this paranoia over me calling you self loathing is a bit of a tell-tell sign of your own insecurities mate. I never called you self loathing and I have zero idea of your racial/ethnic/religious background, so how would I be able to call you a self loathing jew even if I wanted to?

If you've actually bothered to read any of the middle east threads you drop your little pearls of wisdom in, you'll have noticed I make no secret of my ethnic background, so which is it, do you actually pay any attention to the content of threads you post on (in which case you'd be aware that I'm Jewish, and therefore might insinuate that I'm a "self-hating jew"), or do you not pay any attention to the content of the threads you post on,besides gifting us with your little nuggets of homely wisodm?

I don't think you're self loathing, but I do strongly believe that your passionate feelings towards Israel belie your lurking anti-semitism, which may be witting or unwitting.

It is not logical or rational for you to form the biased, ridiculous opinions against Israel as you do. It is an isolated democracy amidst a field of wolves and aggressors. It is under potential siege ALL THE TIME. Of course it takes a certain tough line against the Palestintians. It's to secure the safety of citizens.

Fine, care to post any credible examples of my "lurking anti-semitism"?

They do have to be credible, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why should he have to dredge out examples? it's patently obvious this is the norm in this forum

Fucking joke.

Right, so it's fine to make accusations without giving examples, then just roll your eyes and walk away?

I reckon that makes you the fucking joke, "mate".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm almost tempted to view your ^ rant as a troll or flame tactic in itself...seeing as you have clearly misconstrued what I was saying.

I merely believe the views of Nino and VP to be misguided, in so far as

a) you can't get away from the fact that Israel is a democracy, and people vote for parties they want, in what is one of the most representative forms of democracy on earth. This is a simple fact that is over looked time and time and time again on this board. Laughable, seeing as Israel is a bit of a beacon when it comes to the region as a whole.

It's the very fact that the state of Israel is hailed as a democracy that makes it incumbent on the state of Israel to set a good example. It doesn't.
You can piss and moan all you want, but the state of Israel's exclusionary policies fly in the face of democracy.

I'm surprised, as you claim to be Greek, you don't have a finer appreciation of what democracy actually means, considering your own people were deprived of it by their own military within my lifetime.

b) Perhaps Israel would not be so aggressive and reactionary in its stance towards peoples if it wasn't in the situtaton it is in. I.e. a State surrounded by enemies and terrorists. Cliche? probably. Just a shame it's true.

Here's a little economics lesson for the man who says "Israel is surrounded by enemies". Egypt's economy is dependent on exports to Israel in order to even approach a balance of payments, it also depends on US aid, second only in size to what the US gifts the state of Israel with, to import much of it's pharma and tech needs. Egypt is neutralised.
Lebanon is a building site.
The Saudis depend on US armaments, advisors and intel to control their own population.
There's a threat to Israel, but it's not the threat you've painted. That's rightwing dreck fed to gullible Yanks.

Anyone who can't understand these basic, crude, yet highly valid points, continuing to rail against "Zionism" like a true brainwashed SWP-y, is the real fucking idiot here. The real troll. Not me.

That might be true if your points were indeed "highly valid", which makes it a pity they read like something out of AIPAC's "Primer on Israel for moral and intellectual buffoons", doesn't it?

Don't try and swerve things by claiming I called people self loathing Jews which is blatantly something i wouldn't dream of doing.

Of course ytou wouldn't, Pete. Same as you'd swear black is blue you haven't come out with half the rightwing bullshit you puke up.

Get a reality check, you people. FS.

After you, sunshine. You need it more.