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The morality of fare dodging?

Fare dodging on trains in London is wholly justified if you have a pre-pay oyster card, which network south east, silverlink, southern and south west trains will not let you use. (Not sure about the train companies in North London.)

These train companies do not want to invest in the card readers. They are greedy private companies making profits from hordes of commuters on their over-crowded services. If they are not prepared to invest in card readers to make the lives of those commuters easier, then I see no reason why commuters should buy tickets.

A public protest non-payment of fares might help make them realise that modernisation of the system is part of the service.
 
Cobbles said:
Renationalisation without compensation - now we're really talking about theft!

So vote for a Government that's insane enough to have that as a manifesto pledge - once they get their snouts into the trough, they'll find something else to tinker with.

In any event I'd rather not see a return to British rail with endless strikes, crap food and elderly rolling stock.

Mind you, I can't recall rail travel being free in those days...


In the days of BR the public subsidies were about a third of what they are now.....Bring back BR i say even if it was a bit shit....its a lot better than the privatisation thieves......
 
roryer said:
Fare dodging on trains in London is wholly justified if you have a pre-pay oyster card, which network south east, silverlink, southern and south west trains will not let you use. (Not sure about the train companies in North London.)

These train companies do not want to invest in the card readers. They are greedy private companies making profits from hordes of commuters on their over-crowded services. If they are not prepared to invest in card readers to make the lives of those commuters easier, then I see no reason why commuters should buy tickets.

A public protest non-payment of fares might help make them realise that modernisation of the system is part of the service.
What a sensible train of thought - as the Government isn't willing to pay to upgrade Scotland's 2 lane M-roads to proper 3/4 lane motorways I don't see why I should pay my road tax.....

Why on earth should these companies have to fork out for new hardware - why didn't TFL have the basic sense to design a system that was compatible with existing ticket barriers? Anyway, I see that TFL is to pay to upgrade barriers in all zone 1-6 stations so you won't have to steal train rides for too much longer.
 
Cobbles said:
why didn't TFL have the basic sense to design a system that was compatible with existing ticket barriers?

Probably because it wouldn't have met any of the design parameters for the Oyster card.

The existing ticket barriers rely on a magnetic strip on the back of a paper ticket.

Problems with this:

- The strip would hold insufficient data to do the same job as the embedded chip inside an Oyster card. It's 1970s technology.

- They weren't particularly secure (they could be 'wiped' and re-set with a suitable gizmo).

- The magnetic strips wear out. If you have an annual card, it wasn't uncommon to have to replace it two or three times during the period.

- The existing machines are prone to paper jams, particularly with old, worn Travelcards.

The Oyster also offers the following advantages, which could not have been achieved with a magnetic-paper card system

- Contactless swiping (you don't have to take your Oyster out of your wallet when passing through the barriers) which improves passenger flow at stations.

- Renewable online - you don't have to visit a station to renew your card.

- TfL have the opportunity to generate revenue by adding extra functions to the Oyster such as cashless payments for other services.

I'm sure there are other things I have missed.
 
roryer said:
A public protest non-payment of fares might help make them realise that modernisation of the system is part of the service.

That might well be, but it's not a valid excuse for casual fare-dodging. If it were an organised campaign then someone may take notice, but otherwise fare-dodging is going to be construed as just that.

If people want to save themselves a few quid by dodging a fare then that is up to them. But concocting 'ethical' justifications is just a load of crap. If you want to complain about the price/service/privatisation/ticket barriers etc then write to your mp, organise a campaign or something but don't be under any illusion that not buying a ticket is going to do anything but raise ticket prices or increase the amount of revenue enforcement.

Mr Fat Cat isn't going to look at his figures and say 'hmm, fare dodging is up 5%, let's look at cutting my annual bonus' :rolleyes:
 
I spent a few years fare-dodging and couldn't have managed otherwise (it's not always easy to find a job within walking - or even cycling - distance of your home and moving house isn't that straightforward). I'm grateful that I was able to do it. Hell, I've even done it recently - and I really had no choice. It would take my life history to tell you why, but really, I had no choice. There's no doubt that I'd be costing the taxpayer (including myself) far more in unemployment benefit than in lost train fares if I couldn't have bunked at the time. (I do cycle part of the way, but it's too far to cycle the whole distance in the time I have). However, I always accepted that if I get caught, it's only fair that I would have to pay the fine. Fare-dodging is allowed by the system (unintentionally), but so is punishment for that.

It's not cut-and-dried either way. To elaborate, at regretable length ...

The system is supported by taxpayers, and they benefit indirectly even if they don't use public transport themselves: by having people be able to get to work to keep the economy going, especially service people or others in low-wage industries; by reducing emissions; by increasing social mobility; by making high house prices spread out a bit further, and lessen the overall impact; by reducing road traffic for car-drivers; by increasing accessibility to work and cultural events for those who can't physically drive, which increases the pool of labour and increases the revenues of such cultural events, enabling them to continue; by decreasing the number of drunk or incompetant drivers: those are some of the benefits you're paying for, Cobblers, and anyone else who doesn't use public transport personally.

If public transport suddenly had no subsidies, everyone would soon be wondering why their streets weren't clean and the prét a manger were closed (the cleaners and shop workers can't get to work) and why the roads were even worse than usual (more people using cars) and why their Grandad could't get to his lunch club (because he failed his post-75 driving test and can't afford a taxi), and why most people with epilepsy are suddenly unemployed (because, legally, they can't drive).

All the same, the system still - economically and morally - should be supported additionally by those who actually use the system, through the fares they pay. It's not like there were no train fares before privatisation. We pay through taxes for the social benefits and a reduced personal cost to ourselves, but if we use the system we pay extra, because we are getting extra, personal benefits from it.

However, there are not enough systems in place to alleviate the high costs for those who can't afford them, and the costs, especially outside London, are very high. There is a negligible student discount within London, and while there is a discount card for people on certain benefits, it's a recent thing, the rate of discount changed a lot recently, and it still doesn't help those on low incomes who cannot receive benefits. Also, as far as I know, the discount card for people on benefits is only in London and local routes (on buses and trains) outside London don't give student discounts. I could be wrong about that.

The lack of ability to use Oystercards on some London train routes is a travesty. Quite often I've used the tube and buses, etc., often enough to upgrade to a daily travelcard, only to have to buy an extra paper ticket for a fair amount of money to make one train journey. This has even happened when the only reason I had to use the overland train is that the tube was fucked. Grr!

Paper daily travelcards cost a fair bit more and are intended for those who don't have Oystercards (namely those who don't live in London and don't support the transport systems even more through local taxes). They shouldn't be necessary for London internal routes. That is why, Cobblers, fare-dodging is more justifiable on those London routes which don't support Oyster. (Sorry for addressing you directly so much, Cobblers; you just brought up a couple of things which I thought I could answers to, although I don't disagree with your general POV).

Train guards do check teenagers more, in my experience, but that is for the good reason that teenagers are more likely to bunk. Though that's partly because teenagers are more likely to be poor, and many older teenagers have a low income and no recourse to student/benefit discounts.

Softybabe - are all buses free for under 16s now then? I've seen someone else mtnion this elsewhere, but previously I thought it was just for under-11s. That's progress, if so :)

Honestly? I've paid tax for many years, and I expect to be a tax-payer for the rest of my life, even eventually a higher-rate tax-payer, and I wouldn't resent it at all if my taxes were a tiny percentage higher to allow for the tiny percentage who bunk public transport, especially those who, like me, had no other choice.
 
pootle said:
That's a v valid point! Honestly now, how many people would dodge if they knew they could get away with it?

I already do as much as possible!! :cool:

Saved myself a fortune over the years, cant really do it on LT but outside of london on the trains pah!!

Also dont forget most of Thameslink seems to be free! :):)
 
tbaldwin said:
I do pay for it generally unfortunately...And the times when i am lucky enough not too are only a small compensation for the huge rip off that happened when public transport was taken over by private companies.....

Did local or national government start public transport or was it a product of capitalism ?
If the second is true then the capitalist takeover is just returning things to the natural state.
Capitalist saw a chance to make money providing a service useful to the masses.
What's so wrong about that ?
 
big footed fred said:
What's so wrong about that ?

Because some services can't be run as a private enterprise. These companies cannot run without huge amounts of public money (IIRC more than when they were in public hands) to me unless they can prove that without the 'savings' they are making as a private company would mean that they would need even more public money to run the service they may have a case. However, on the Railways when they gave some of the services back to network rail they were cheaper to run.

I'm normally for private enterprise over public ownership, however there is no country in the EU that has more expensive public transport, and the UK's us substantially below the standard of France, Germany, Holland and Finland - from my experience.
 
scifisam said:
Honestly? I've paid tax for many years, and I expect to be a tax-payer for the rest of my life, even eventually a higher-rate tax-payer, and I wouldn't resent it at all if my taxes were a tiny percentage higher to allow for the tiny percentage who bunk public transport, especially those who, like me, had no other choice.

That's the longest excuse for stealing I've ever seen.
 
big footed fred said:
Did local or national government start public transport or was it a product of capitalism ?
If the second is true then the capitalist takeover is just returning things to the natural state.
Capitalist saw a chance to make money providing a service useful to the masses.
What's so wrong about that ?

I don't know the answer to your initial question - don't know if anyone else here does, but as the economy exists now, it's not the main point. Public transport is one of many things we take for granted (like, say, street-lighting) that can't be run purely on a consumer-pays-per-use purpose. Natural monopolies, even if they're not supposed to be monopolies any more (as if, living in Southend and working in London, you could choose to get a train from Doncaster to Leeds rather than a train from Southend to London).

The reason is that the social benefits are so high that they benefit everyone on a personal basis too. Unless you disagree with any of my examples of why public transport benefits those who don't directly use it. Maybe you do.

Just to take one of my examples, that of enabling low wage-earners to get to work: running public transport in a purely capitalist way entails either not having low wage earners come to work, having them only work within walking distance of their homes, raising their wages to cope with the prices of public transport - which I'm sure low wage-earners wouldn't disagree with, but it would mean rampant inflation - or subsidising public transport. In a way, subsididing public transport is a way of increasing wages without increasing inflation. It works perfectly well within a capitalist mindset.

Except that, of course, my previous post was just an 'excuse for stealing,' according to another poster, so you may as well disregard anything I say.:rolleyes:
 
scott_forester said:
Because some services can't be run as a private enterprise. These companies cannot run without huge amounts of public money (IIRC more than when they were in public hands) to me unless they can prove that without the 'savings' they are making as a private company would mean that they would need even more public money to run the service they may have a case. However, on the Railways when they gave some of the services back to network rail they were cheaper to run.

I'm normally for private enterprise over public ownership, however there is no country in the EU that has more expensive public transport, and the UK's us substantially below the standard of France, Germany, Holland and Finland - from my experience.

We are hammered with fuel taxes and safety rules that make any transport harder to run.
If that means that some services can't be run as a private enterprise as it's not viable then if the government wants them to continue they must add money to the pot.
Still seems fair to me.
 
big footed fred said:
We are hammered with fuel taxes and safety rules that make any transport harder to run.
If that means that some services can't be run as a private enterprise as it's not viable then if the government wants them to continue they must add money to the pot.
Still seems fair to me.

Dear MP, It's not viable for me to run my car and if I don't, then the social cost will be enormous.

Please let me have some dosh.

Many thanks.
 
Cobbles said:
Dear MP, It's not viable for me to run my car and if I don't, then the social cost will be enormous.

Please let me have some dosh.

Many thanks.

Sod off we subby public transport.
Love and kisses,
Your MP
 
Cobbles said:
Dear MP, It's not viable for me to run my car and if I don't, then the social cost will be enormous.

Please let me have some dosh.

Many thanks.

How would the social cost of you not being able to run your car be enormous?
 
scifisam said:
And that's a ridiculous response.

I'm pretty sure if you were caught you wouldn't try this excuse.

My wife employees two people who both pay tax, can she commit tax fraud because then she could lower her fees and employ more people therefore benefiting the economy in general? She seems to be able to in your World.
 
big footed fred said:
We are hammered with fuel taxes and safety rules that make any transport harder to run.
If that means that some services can't be run as a private enterprise as it's not viable then if the government wants them to continue they must add money to the pot.
Still seems fair to me.


And me, however peoples' general gripe about the train companies who are running unviable, state subsidised, industries is that more often than not they are making a greater profit margin than many businesses that have to stand on their own legs. Which gives the impression you are just pouring public money into private hands.
 
scott_forester said:
And me, however peoples' general gripe about the train companies who are running unviable, state subsidised, industries is that more often than not they are making a greater profit margin than many businesses that have to stand on their own legs. Which gives the impression you are just pouring public money into private hands.

So who said capitalism was about being 'fare' (hihi).
The idea of a business is to make money. If a company can get cash it has a duty to do regardless of where it comes from.
I don't have the numbers available but I'm sure that no business turns down cash. In the case of transport companies if they have managed to screw the government then it's between them and the department they screwed.

Assuming what you say is true it MAY be wrong but from the point of view of the business and it's shareholders it's a good move.
 
I don't fare dodge, because in Bristol it's impossible trying to get past the driver without paying. However, if I had the opportunity, I would fare dodge as much as I could. I morally justify this, because the money I would save could be used to either pay off the huge amounts of debt that I have, put money into worthy charities/causes that I believe in rather than lining the pockets of shareholders of First through a capitalist system which i do not believe in.
icon3.gif
 
big footed fred said:
Did local or national government start public transport or was it a product of capitalism ?

Depends a little where you're looking at, but mostly it was originally private enterprise, with government taking over where the markets failed.

However, the first acknowledged recognisable bus service in the UK was George Shillibeer's London Omnibus service in 1829, copying an idea he'd used in Paris a couple of years earlier. From 1855 onward, buses in London became dominated by the London General Omnibus Company, before that was acquired in 1912 by the Underground Group of companies. In London, the whole lot was effectively nationalised under the London Passenger Transport Board in 1933.

There were a number of municipal bus services across the country created and run by local authorities right up to the 1980s. Many of them have now been sold off to private companies, though a few examples still remain in places like Nottingham and Cardiff.

The railway boom of the 1840s was as big a capitalist bubble as the Internet boom of the 1990s. With a few exceptions, private railway companies were always in a somewhat shaky financial position up to (and after) the forced mergers into the 'Big Four' (LMS, LNER, GWR, and Southern Railways) under the 1921 Railways Act and full nationalisation as British Rail after WWII.
 
zenie said:
I already do as much as possible!! :cool:

Saved myself a fortune over the years, cant really do it on LT but outside of london on the trains pah!!

Also dont forget most of Thameslink seems to be free! :):)
DLR's mostly free too :cool:
 
strung_out said:
I morally justify this, because the money I would save could be used to either pay off the huge amounts of debt that I have,
put money into worthy charities/causes that I believe in rather than lining the pockets of shareholders of First through a capitalist system which i do not believe in.
icon3.gif

I've read some evasive, self-serving bollocks on this thread, but this takes the fucking cake.
 
scott_forester said:
I'm pretty sure if you were caught you wouldn't try this excuse.

You're right to be sure. I already said that I accept that if I was caught I'd pay a fine, or rather accept a fixed penalty fare and pay it later.[/QUOTE]

The circumstances were that I lived in one place and worked in another. This was between the ages of 16 and 18. I was self-supporting, had only one GCSE and it was not easy to find work; my income was only slightly more than my rent. I got very thin through actually not being able to afford to eat. At that age, I couldn't claim benefits, so I had to do this job, and I just did not have the money to get there. So I bunked. It was that or not work and end up on the streets. So, yeah, I do feel it was justified.

At no point did I ever feel it was right (and I haven't said so on this thread), but it was necessary and I'm very glad I could do it.

I don't agree with those who say it's moral to fare-dodge, but I don't agree with those who view it as a black-and-white situation where fare-dodging is out-and-out theft either. The world just is not as simple as that.
 
scifisam said:
I don't agree with those who say it's moral to fare-dodge, but I don't agree with those who view it as a black-and-white situation where fare-dodging is out-and-out theft either. The world just is not as simple as that.

The thing which makes fare-dodging more justifiable than, say, shoplifting is that it is not really 'theft' in so much as you're not taking anything - the trains/buses are running anyway, it's just a question of whether you're on them or not.

In a situation like scifisam's where your choices are effectively not make the journey or make the journey without paying, you can make an argument that you're not actually depriving the rail/bus company of money because you if you'd had to pay you wouldn't have travelled at all.

Similarly I've sometimes justified myself being lazy and jumping on the train for one stop - because it is only 10 minutes walk and if there were any barriers etc and I had to pay the £2, I simply wouldn't pay, I'd walk instead. Again, it's not really 'right', but I can live with it ;)
 
strung_out said:
I morally justify this, because the money I would save could be used to either pay off the huge amounts of debt that I have, put money into worthy charities/causes that I believe in rather than lining the pockets of shareholders of First through a capitalist system which i do not believe in.

You could do those things anyway if you got a bike :p :D

But I bet you'd really spend the money on shiny things and cider :D
 
Mrs Miggins said:
You could do those things anyway if you got a bike :p

But I bet you'd really spend the money on shiny things and cider :D
well i did have one, but like you and scifisam, i had my bike nicked... twice :mad:

anyway, this is all accademic as it's impossible to dodge the fares on bristol buses anyway :D

:mad:
 
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