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The morality of fare dodging?

Yossarian said:
All public transport should be free - not just the bendy buses!

Nothing's free pal - someone has to pay. Just means higher taxes (again)

So can you explain why I should contribute to public transport when I don't use it ?
After all it's dirty, you never know if a bus will be on time and you have to mix with people like tbaldwin. :D

<wanders off with nose in air like a good snob>
 
Yossarian said:
All public transport should be free - not just the bendy buses!

Who will have the pleasure of paying for it all and what's public? - anything that's not private - e.g. taxis? Long Distance Trains? airline flights?
 
Used to bunk the trains when I was skint - still skint but working now ;)

Depends, if you haven't got the money then you takes your chances - never liked it though or felt comfortable about it. Something distinctly teenage about bunking trains, if you know what I mean.
 
tbaldwin said:
Not to mention the ridiculous amount of public subsidies the private companies get.....

And if they were totally publicly funded, it's even more money !

Also, let me ask this: If they were totally public funded, would everyone immediately say "That's it ! I'll never fare dodge again" and keep to it. Or would peeps just continue to fare dodge anyway ?
 
big footed fred said:
What a load of bollocks (again)

Business works like this.
Some hard working guy puts his money into a new business and takes a massive risk he will loose it all if the business fails.
He collects money from that business to pay his staff and make the business better.
If it's a public transport business he provides a handy service for people like you.
If theives steal from him by avoiding paying the fare maybe he will stop the service and that leaves you walking and a lot of people without a job.
So what if he makes a pile of money from it - he put money in and took a risk so good luck to him and fuck you for stealing.

If you want morals I think commandment number 9 is "Thou shall not steal"

Except the way the privatised public transport industries came about and work doesn't relate to that at all. They were set up by the government, sold off and are then propped up with public subsidy. That has nothing to do with 'risk' or any of that stuff.
 
It's simple - if you buy into that 'liberation shopping' bollocks (using your politics to justify theft) then you'll have no problem with stealing from a PT systems whether it's wholly public or not. If you're 14 you'll try and bunk the fares cos...well, that's the kind of idiot thing you do with your mates to appear cool when you're 14 (I remember doing it before the age of ticket barriers on the trains to Colchester and back)
 
Mrs Miggins said:
I don't really understand why some people think they are entitled to use public transport for free. The fares may well be high but what gives you the right to just decide not to pay for a paying service? Get a bike if you object that much :)


I really dont understand why some people think they should pay twice?
Once in public taxes that go to a private firm and then again for a ticket to the private firm....Very strange.....
 
big footed fred said:
Nothing's free pal - someone has to pay. Just means higher taxes (again)

So can you explain why I should contribute to public transport when I don't use it ?
After all it's dirty, you never know if a bus will be on time and you have to mix with people like tbaldwin. :D

<wanders off with nose in air like a good snob>

The companies who took over the rail network made a fortune overnight because at the prices they paid it was a steal......But not content with that they come back year after year to get more and more public subsidies.....

Fred perhaps if the shareholders got less money the buses might be cleaner and on time....

Why should we have to pay the crooks who run the transport companies so much money?
 
tbaldwin said:
The companies who took over the rail network made a fortune overnight because at the prices they paid it was a steal......But not content with that they come back year after year to get more and more public subsidies.....

Fred perhaps if the shareholders got less money the buses might be cleaner and on time....

Why should we have to pay the crooks who run the transport companies so much money?

Presumably if the Government felt that there was something wrong with the contractual arrangements, then they'd seek to have them amended. As they haven't bothered and seem perfectly happy. there would appear to be no justification to drool on about shareholders ripping off the travelling public etc.

I agree that public transport shouldn't be subsidised - I don't use it so why should I have to pay for it?
 
"The companies who took over the rail network made a fortune overnight because at the prices they paid it was a steal......"

In which case why doesn't the Government sue whoever they used as consultants in the bidding process - OR re-nationalise them?

"But not content with that they come back year after year to get more and more public subsidies....."

Indeed - why not just ban subsidies and put up the fares to their true economic level.

"Why should we have to pay the crooks who run the transport companies so much money?"

I don't know whether Lothian Region Transport are crooks or not.
 
tbaldwin said:
The companies who took over the rail network made a fortune overnight because at the prices they paid it was a steal......But not content with that they come back year after year to get more and more public subsidies.....

Fred perhaps if the shareholders got less money the buses might be cleaner and on time....

Why should we have to pay the crooks who run the transport companies so much money?

So businessmen put money into a project and assuming you are correct made money from these actions.
Shareholders put their money into a project knowing they may loose it too.
Just what is wrong with them making money from it.
Even if you don't like other people's success or just jealous of it why do you consider theft to be OK ?
 
Its 6 for me to get from Angel islington to the safeways in Holloway road
It would be less than a pound in petrol if a had a car
Don't drive its good for London but bad for your pocket
 
Volt said:
Yep, they're cunts :mad: I've been chucked off nightbuses by the bastards before :mad: :mad:


One way of describing low-paid working-class people trying to do a dificult job. Personally as someone who has to pay, because barriers at my destination station, I'm always happy to see fare dodgers caught. What I really dislike are those who cheat and then abuse the revenue people. They're happy to play the game, but whinge when they lose - pathetic.

As to the companies, well they've clearly been handed a nice little subsidised earner by friends in government, but the people who suffer through parasite fare-dodgiers are not the likes of Brian Souter and Beardy Branston but people like me who are forced to pay higher fares.
 
Cobbles said:
Indeed - why not just ban subsidies and put up the fares to their true economic level.

Because where revenue support is provided for buses and trains, it is to subsidise socially desirable routes for which there is no economic level of fares.

A good example would be a bus route through small villages in a country area. The level of fares that would be required to maintain the service at a break-even point would be so high as to deter any potential passengers. A fare £10 return from somewhere in the Beacons into the centre of Brecon would never be sustainable.

It is in recognition of the fact that there are people who live on such routes who would never be able to use their own personal transport (such as the poor, elderly or disabled) that government provides the funds to support the service.

Since the question has already been raised, it may be worth putting this into proper historical context. I'm more familiar with the bus industry, but I believe similar principles apply to rail.

In pre-deregulation days bus companies would 'cross-subsidise' loss making routes with revenue from profitable routes in the centres of towns.

This arrangement dated from the 1930 Road Transport Act, well before the partial nationalisation of bus services in the UK in 1947 when Thomas Tilling, Scottish Motor Traction and Red & White were sold by their owners to the British Transport Commission and with the formation of the National Bus Company in 1969, which acquired the operations of the last remaining major independent operator, British Electric Traction.

Traffic Commissioners for each region would regulate the routes that bus companies were permitted operate, and subsidies were paid after taking account of surpluses from profitable routes.

The 1985 Transport Act specifically outlawed this practice, on the basis that it was keeping the price of fares on profitable routes at an artificially high level. Outside London, Traffic Commissioners would have to find good reasons to reject applications for licences to run buses, reversing the previous rules. Operators would compete with each other in a free market to achieve the lowest prices. This is commonly known as 'deregulation'.

Subsidies from government would be only for those routes deemed socially necessary. Naturally, the levels of subsidy on some individual routes would be proportionately larger than they had been previously, as they would not be benefiting from hidden cross subsidies. These routes would be put out to tender to the lowest bidder.

The move was accompanied by the privatisation of the nationalised bus companies and those operated by local authorities (such as the West Midlands and South Yorkshire).

In the ten years following the 1985 Transport Act, subsidies by local authorities fell from £974 million to £279 million. The average costs per mile of bus operation fell by 44% in real terms. Rural bus subsidies in the years since 2000 have been in the order of £50 million, on approximately 16% of operated routes with the balance being operated commercially.

However, these gains have been at the expense of increased fares and reduced bus usage (an effect opposite to that anticipated by the 1985 Act). Bus passenger miles outside London fell from 9% to 6% as a proportion of all journeys in the 20 years after deregulation. Bus use in South Yorkshire dropped 62% in the period.

The curiosity is that London, which retained its regulated bus environment under the 1985 Act (though with private operating companies) has bucked the national trend, with steadily rising levels of bus use. London is becoming an example for the rest of the nation that deregulation, open competition and bringing subsidies out into the open, while it may have cost the taxpayer less and improved efficiencies within the industry, has also led to the public abandoning buses as a significant means of transport.
 
cybertect said:
The curiosity is that London, which retained its regulated bus environment under the 1985 Act (though with private operating companies) has bucked the national trend, with steadily rising levels of bus use. London is becoming an example for the rest of the nation that deregulation, open competition and bringing subsidies out into the open, while it may have cost the taxpayer less and improved efficiencies within the industry, has also led to the public abandoning buses as a significant means of transport.
Perhaps the public outside the M25 have abandoned buses as private vehicles are far more effective at delivering their transport needs. In cities bus lanes and other artificial congestion generating devices promulgated by Local Authorities have brought buses to prominence.
 
remember, if you do have a valid ticket and the train is late, you have a moral obligation to apply a similar delay to showing anyone your ticket on request.. It's also against railway bylaws to sell someone a ticket and then not supply a train on demand.

Try telling first great western's platform ticket bouncers that you can't show them your ticket right now, but it's expected in 10 minutes. pisses them right off:D
 
elliot said:
It's also against railway bylaws to sell someone a ticket and then not supply a train on demand.

Try reading the Terms and Conditions of travel adn find out exactly what your ticket entitles you to. Certainly not law to provide you with a train and also no actual entitlement to a seat once you are on a train
 
tbaldwin said:
I really dont understand why some people think they should pay twice?
Once in public taxes that go to a private firm and then again for a ticket to the private firm....Very strange.....

OK - you may be a clever c**t but you're not answering the question of why you think you're somehow entiteld to just not pay the fare.
 
strung_out said:
if i knew i could get away with it, i would dodge the fares every time

That's a v valid point! Honestly now, how many people would dodge if they knew they could get away with it?
 
big footed fred said:
So businessmen put money into a project and assuming you are correct made money from these actions.
Shareholders put their money into a project knowing they may loose it too.
Just what is wrong with them making money from it.
Even if you don't like other people's success or just jealous of it why do you consider theft to be OK ?


They stole the Railways and i dont believe in voluntarily giving to thieves.
They knew they were onto a winner when they bought it,there was very little risk involved unless it was renationalised without compensation......Which it should be.
 
Mrs Miggins said:
OK - you may be a clever c**t but you're not answering the question of why you think you're somehow entiteld to just not pay the fare.


I already have paid thru my taxes thanks......
 
Mrs Miggins said:
But you are also required to pay a fare when you physically use the system...


Required by who the? The kind of people who put shareholders profits before public safety? Why would i want to do that?
 
tbaldwin said:
Required by who the? The kind of people who put shareholders profits before public safety? Why would i want to do that?

If you want to use public trasport, fucking pay for it like everyone else.
Get a bike if you think that doesn't apply to you.
 
Mrs Miggins said:
If you want to use public trasport, fucking pay for it like everyone else.
Get a bike if you think that doesn't apply to you.


I do pay for it generally unfortunately...And the times when i am lucky enough not too are only a small compensation for the huge rip off that happened when public transport was taken over by private companies.....
 
lightsoutlondon said:
Renationalisation without compensation - now we're really talking about theft!

So vote for a Government that's insane enough to have that as a manifesto pledge - once they get their snouts into the trough, they'll find something else to tinker with.

In any event I'd rather not see a return to British rail with endless strikes, crap food and elderly rolling stock.

Mind you, I can't recall rail travel being free in those days...
 
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