The Minutemen

[nino_savatte]

No. They can't justly make the charge because it is not so. It's not about being Mexican. It's about entering the country illegally. Period.



You're making judgements, Nino, against all the members and their motives? And for your info, not all the Minutemen are white. There are some Hispanics and Asians involved too. Maybe not up front, and certainly not seen in the media reports, but that only serves to feed your own view, and others like it, that maintain this whole thing is racially motivated. It is not about race or ethnicity. It's about breaking the law. Just because some would USE the issue to further their racist ends does not change the fact.

The Old Sarge

I like the way you accuse me of "making judgements" (how remarkably patronising of you). I call it how it how I see it. The Minutmen are all white (I would like to see you evidence to the contrary). Secondly, those persons who have been declared "illegal" are overwhelmingly Mexican or would you deny this?

Vigilante groups are accountable to no one but themselves and the danger of allwing groups like this to dictate policy is the beginning of the slippery slope. After all, Nazi Germany used to have similar concerned citizens groups all of whom claimed to act in the interests of the state.

 

[nino_savatte]

Tell me the historic significance of the name "Minutemen." ... if you can.

This vigilante group have appropriated the name "Minutemen" because of the name's historical associations but they are nothing like the original Minutemen because they are not fighting for the independence of a nation.

 

[spring-peeper]

This vigilante group have appropriated the name "Minutemen" because of the name's historical associations but they are nothing like the original Minutemen because they are not fighting for the independence of a nation.

Fighting for the independence of a nation is not what they are about, it's protecting the nation.

I seem to remember that they were part of the rabble that attacked British North America in 1812. Whingy bunch if I remember my Pierre Burton correctly. Anyway, one of the reasons that the invasion failed was because these gentlemen turned on their leader and refused to cross the border.

 

[nino_savatte]

Fighting for the independence of a nation is not what they are about, it's protecting the nation.

I seem to remember that they were part of the rabble that attacked British North America in 1812. Whingy bunch if I remember my Pierre Burton correctly. Anyway, one of the reasons that the invasion failed was because these gentlemen turned on their leader and refused to cross the border.

Ostensibly they saw themselves as "freedom fighters". Of course the latter day namesakes are nothing more than a vigilante group.

 

[spring-peeper]

Ostensibly they saw themselves as "freedom fighters". Of course the latter day namesakes are nothing more than a vigilante group.

I saw the original group as vigilante as well. Maybe we are learning different versions of history.

 

[nino_savatte]

I saw the original group as vigilante as well. Maybe we are learning different versions of history.

I don't think so. What I've read was that they were a small elite force that was set up to repel would be invaders...this was during the 18th century. What this vigilante group are doing is totally different and yes, they are racist.

 

[spring-peeper]

I don't think so. What I've read was that they were a small elite force that was set up to repel would be invaders...this was during the 18th century. What this vigilante group are doing is totally different and yes, they are racist.

And what do you think to-days group is doing? Patrolling the borders to repel invaders.

Who Were the Minutemen?

Although the terms militia and minutemen are sometimes used interchangeably today, in the 18th century there was a decided difference between the two. Militia were men in arms formed to protect their towns from foreign invasion and ravages of war. Minutemen were a small hand-picked elite force which were required to be highly mobile and able to assemble quickly. Minutemen were selected from militia muster rolls by their commanding officers. Typically 25 years of age or younger, they were chosen for their enthusiasm, reliability, and physical strength. Usually about one quarter of the militia served as Minutemen, performing additional duties as such. The Minutemen were the first armed militia to arrive or await a battle.

link

 

[nino_savatte]

It looks as though some people are preapred to stand up to these racists.
http://swarmtheminutemen.com/

Perhaps this is a reason why Mexicans flood north; they've been fucked by US backed and enforced trade agreements. The trade only flows in one direction too.
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/cafta/

The SPL (the scourge of the neo-confederates) has an interesting angle
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

 

[nino_savatte]

And what do you think to-days group is doing? Patrolling the borders to repel invaders.



link

Not on the basis of ethnicity, peeper. They were set up to warn of, or repel British attacks...big bloody difference.

Please don't tell me that the British are a race.

 

[chilango]

blahblahblahblah

Same old tired bullshit. The fact of the matter is, it's US territory now and the illegals are not coming here to claim territory. It (territory, prior claim, blahblahblah) has absolutly nothing to do with it.

Get over it.

The Old Sarge

How charmingly ahistorical of you.

 

[The Old Sarge]

I like the way you accuse me of "making judgements" (how remarkably patronising of you). I call it how it how I see it.

You did judge the minutement by what you see on the news or read in the paper, no? You have any personal knowledge of the organization? Did you not paint the minutemen with the broad brush of racist? I assure you, not even a large MINORITY of the minutemen fit your idea.

The Minutmen are all white (I would like to see you evidence to the contrary). Secondly, those persons who have been declared "illegal" are overwhelmingly Mexican or would you deny this?

I'll see if I can find a reference I can post here. But from PERSONAL knowledge, I assure you, they are not all white.

Those persons were "declared illegal" because they broke the law to come here. If that's not "illegal" then nothing is. And, yes, they ARE overwhelmingly Mexicans. Ya think!!?? They come from Mexico.

Does a desire to keep out illegal immigrants make me a racist? Hardly. As I said,it's about breaking the law and entering the country illegally ... not where you came from to do it.

Vigilante groups are accountable to no one but themselves and the danger of allwing groups like this to dictate policy is the beginning of the slippery slope. After all, Nazi Germany used to have similar concerned citizens groups all of whom claimed to act in the interests of the state.

All citizens are accountable to the sheriff or the state police. If you're messing around the US-Mexico border you better believe you're accountable to the Border Patrol and whatever military units are helping out. Don't fall for the notion that the vigilanties are automatically evil or racist and they are interested only in making trouble. It just ain't so.

And since when are they (the vigilanties or the Minutemen) dictating policy? It seems to me the politicians are still very much in control. If the citizens, thru vigilanti groups like the Minutemen, want to send a message to the gov ... well, it's their/our right ... under the Constitution.

As long as no laws are broken and those entering the US illegally are being treated humanely and legally ... where's the problem?

Next, I suppose somebody's going to tell me the immigrants rights are being violated.

The Old Sarge

 

[The Old Sarge]

This vigilante group have appropriated the name "Minutemen" because of the name's historical associations but they are nothing like the original Minutemen because they are not fighting for the independence of a nation.

You sure about that, Nino?

Some here see it that they are doing just that.

When this country is being invaded by outside forces, from whatever quarter, are we not fighting for our independence? Are we not in danger of losing our independence when our hands are tired in dealing with things as simple as who we allow into the country in the first place? Give it some serious thought. I know you're capable.

The Old Sarge

 

[The Old Sarge]

I don't think so. What I've read was that they were a small elite force that was set up to repel would be invaders...this was during the 18th century. What this vigilante group are doing is totally different and yes, they are racist.

There you go with the judgement again. lol Can't help yourself can you, Nino? lol

Use of such buzzwords and accusasions is indeed an effective tactic. Not necessarily an honest one, but effective. As pointed out before, just because the vermine show up does not mean the original intention meshes with that of the vermine.

If your mum bakes a cake and the rats and flies show up to eat it, does that make your mum a pest? Does it make her cake vermine bait? Get real.

The Old Sarge

 

[spring-peeper]

Not on the basis of ethnicity, peeper. They were set up to warn of, or repel British attacks...big bloody difference.

Please don't tell me that the British are a race.

Yes, British, French and any other group that they felt were infringing on their territory. I'm willing to bet that they even had a go at a couple of Indian tribes.

The point is that they were there to defend their borders. And that is what they are doing - defending their borders.

 

[chilango]

...and do you think these fools can tell the difference between an "illegal", a legal immigrant, a mexican over for shopping, a mexican visiting relatives, a mexican living in the area since before the border moved or indeed a native american.

I have my doubts.

 

[nino_savatte]

You did judge the minutement by what you see on the news or read in the paper, no? You have any personal knowledge of the organization? Did you not paint the minutemen with the broad brush of racist? I assure you, not even a large MINORITY of the minutemen fit your idea.



I'll see if I can find a reference I can post here. But from PERSONAL knowledge, I assure you, they are not all white.

Those persons were "declared illegal" because they broke the law to come here. If that's not "illegal" then nothing is. And, yes, they ARE overwhelmingly Mexicans. Ya think!!?? They come from Mexico.

Does a desire to keep out illegal immigrants make me a racist? Hardly. As I said,it's about breaking the law and entering the country illegally ... not where you came from to do it.



All citizens are accountable to the sheriff or the state police. If you're messing around the US-Mexico border you better believe you're accountable to the Border Patrol and whatever military units are helping out. Don't fall for the notion that the vigilanties are automatically evil or racist and they are interested only in making trouble. It just ain't so.

And since when are they (the vigilanties or the Minutemen) dictating policy? It seems to me the politicians are still very much in control. If the citizens, thru vigilanti groups like the Minutemen, want to send a message to the gov ... well, it's their/our right ... under the Constitution.

As long as no laws are broken and those entering the US illegally are being treated humanely and legally ... where's the problem?

Next, I suppose somebody's going to tell me the immigrants rights are being violated.

The Old Sarge

Sorry Sarge, but you can shout and scream "bias" or "you are judging them" all you like but the simple truth is The Minutemen are a knee jerk group of reactionary bigots whose fear has run out of all proportionate of the reality.

 

[chilango]

I´ll tell you what.

In a few weeks I´ll be going to Arizona with some friends.

We´ll see what the Minute men (is that a comment on the size of their genitalia btw?) make of us. Tell em to keep an eye out for a car driving round the desert with mexican and cuban flags and loud cumbia on the stereo.

Defending borders? sin fronteras, pendejos...

 

[The Old Sarge]

It looks as though some people are preapred to stand up to these racists.
http://swarmtheminutemen.com/

Did You actually read this site? It advocates what amounts to anarchy. And their your rallying point agains the Minutemen? WHat makes you think the sponsors of that site are any more honest, sincere, or honorable than the minutement? Because soemone TOLD you they are? Because you agree with their politics and policies?

Perhaps this is a reason why Mexicans flood north; they've been fucked by US backed and enforced trade agreements. The trade only flows in one direction too.
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/cafta/

Perhaps all that can be laid at the door of their own government just as easily and forthrightly. Ever consider that?

The SPL (the scourge of the neo-confederates) has an interesting angle
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

A few details about your link ...

THis is beginning to approach what In Bloom and some of the others are NOT doing. Posting proof. However, there are some major holes in the info on this site you post ...

1. No matter what Gilchrist said about carrying guns, there is no requirement to have a permit if you carry the gun openly. i.e. not concealed on your person or in your vehicle. That's one of the nice things about most of our states ... the "right to keep and bare arms ..."

2. The neo-Nazis that sat in the lawn chairs with the sign? Why do you think they showed up? Because they can never get the media attention they crave unless they break the law or crash somebody else's gathering. Would you blame the bride, or the groom, for wedding crashers, Nino? Come on. Which one? Don't think. Just choose. Which one?

3. After mention of the assholes-in-lawnchairs, the article noticably never returns to the Minutement. Hmmmmmm. All that copy about National Alliance, Aryan Nations, and all their horseshit ... I guess the reporter could not be troubled to stick to the original topic. I guess the party crashers sell better, huh? And why bother going back to the Minutemen anyway? The damage has been done. Mission accomplished.

4. Ok, Gilchrist has some credibility issues. Maybe his issues are destroying the Minutemen's credibility. Maybe, before it's too late and the Minutement are tarred and feathered, they ought to crack down on the assholes that crash the party. Maybe the press ought to be a bit more fair and honest and let in some of that sunlight they brag about. If you can't see the obvious slant/bias against the Minutemen, it only proves your ignorance? detachment? from the issue, Nino.

The Old Sarge

 

[The Old Sarge]

Not on the basis of ethnicity, peeper. They were set up to warn of, or repel British attacks...big bloody difference.

Please don't tell me that the British are a race.

Then don't tell us that the Mexicans ARE.

 

[spring-peeper]

I´ll tell you what.

In a few weeks I´ll be going to Arizona with some friends.

We´ll see what the Minute men (is that a comment on the size of their genitalia btw?) make of us. Tell em to keep an eye out for a car driving round the desert with mexican and cuban flags and loud cumbia on the stereo.

Defending borders? sin fronteras, pendejos...

What country does Arizona border on again?

eta: I think you are referring to the State Troopers

 

[chilango]

Then don't tell us that the Mexicans ARE.

the vast majority of Mexicans are either indigenous or Mestizo. Only a tiny proportion are of wholly European origin. The "white" mexicans are usually pretty damn rich dueto historic landownership etc and are therefore unlikely to be "illegal immigrants", they probably have a legal home in San Diego.

 

[The Old Sarge]

...and do you think these fools can tell the difference between an "illegal", a legal immigrant, a mexican over for shopping, a mexican visiting relatives, a mexican living in the area since before the border moved or indeed a native american.

I have my doubts.

I have my doubts you gave this post any serious thought, Chilango.

Are you aware of the process of entering legally? Are you aware that the Minutemen are patrolling the border itself, not the towns and shopping malls?

If you see people heading north across the desert, crossing the US-Mexico border, away from roads, out of sight of towns, no habitation of any kind, and especially under cover of darkness ... what ya think the odds are that they are entering the US illegally? Does the color of their skin, if you can even see it, make a difference?

Instead of trying to MAKE an issue where non exists, why don't you just get right to the heart, the core, of the REAL issue. The REAL issue is illegal entry into the US ... nothing to do with race, ethnicity, national origin, or who your mommy and daddy are. Just legal vs illegal. Period.

The Old Sarge

 

[nino_savatte]

Then don't tell us that the Mexicans ARE.

Actually they are: many of them - as Chilango points out - are Mestizo...that is to say they are descended from the indigenous peoples of that land. Of course the indigenous were practically exterminated, then they suffered the indignity of having no citizenship - they became the property of the USG.

No, the British are not a race any more than Americans are a homogenous group of people.

 

[The Old Sarge]

Sorry Sarge, but you can shout and scream "bias" or "you are judging them" all you like but the simple truth is The Minutemen are a knee jerk group of reactionary bigots whose fear has run out of all proportionate of the reality.

That may be your impression, and you're free to hold it and stroke it, and feed it all you want. You can even convince yourself it's true. Seems you have done just that.

I know it is not true.

 

[The Old Sarge]

I´ll tell you what.

In a few weeks I´ll be going to Arizona with some friends.

We´ll see what the Minute men (is that a comment on the size of their genitalia btw?) make of us. Tell em to keep an eye out for a car driving round the desert with mexican and cuban flags and loud cumbia on the stereo.

Defending borders? sin fronteras, pendejos...

You entering the US legally? You here already?

 

[The Old Sarge]

the vast majority of Mexicans are either indigenous or Mestizo. Only a tiny proportion are of wholly European origin. The "white" mexicans are usually pretty damn rich dueto historic landownership etc and are therefore unlikely to be "illegal immigrants", they probably have a legal home in San Diego.

And what does any of that have to do with the post you quoted?

 

[nino_savatte]

That may be your impression, and you're free to hold it and stroke it, and feed it all you want. You can even convince yourself it's true. Seems you have done just that.

I know it is not true.

All you can do is chuck out words like "bias" and "judgemental" but I get the feeling that your emotional attachment to these people is what is really at the heart of the matter. So you don't like immigrants; that's you and almost every white person in the US since the year 1776 that has had a problem with others who are different. Only this time, it's a group of people who hav been designated "illegal" by whom?

So how can you tell who is legal and who is not? Do they bear a visible mark upon their bodies?

The Minutemen, like so many so-called grassroots groups, can claim legitimacy by declaring themselves to be "true patriots"...but as Dr Johnson once said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". I would add that "patriotism" is also the last refuge of the racist.

 

[chilango]

I have my doubts you gave this post any serious thought, Chilango.

Are you aware of the process of entering legally? Are you aware that the Minutemen are patrolling the border itself, not the towns and shopping malls?

If you see people heading north across the desert, crossing the US-Mexico border, away from roads, out of sight of towns, no habitation of any kind, and especially under cover of darkness ... what ya think the odds are that they are entering the US illegally? Does the color of their skin, if you can even see it, make a difference?

Instead of trying to MAKE an issue where non exists, why don't you just get right to the heart, the core, of the REAL issue. The REAL issue is illegal entry into the US ... nothing to do with race, ethnicity, national origin, or who your mommy and daddy are. Just legal vs illegal. Period.

The Old Sarge

You obviously aren´t all that familiar with the area.


There are communities and farms that cross the border, the border arrived later and divided them.

There are parks and hiking trails etc in the border area, what if a "legal" mexican was hiking would the minute men check his documents first?

could a minute men tell the difference between a migrant and the existing population mexican or indigenous who live and work in border deserts?

Its not like there´s a huge vacuum around the border.

 

[chilango]

And what does any of that have to do with the post you quoted?

whether the mexicans are a race or not?

 

[chilango]

You entering the US legally? You here already?

what does that matter?