The Minutemen

[nino_savatte]

Nino, there are a couple of reasons for the white thing ...

1. The people that make up the majority of this group cpme from areas that are overwhelmingly white.

2. It's been my experience that minorities in America tend not to get involved in demonstrations, rallies, etc unless their particular minority stands to gain. (Not a critisim, just an observation.)

As an aside, we are currently experiencing local debate and angst over illegal immigration. Illegals in this county of Idaho (polutaion about 250,000) number in the thousands. It's somewhat a joke that nothing is done to curb illegal immigration and that the illegals actually get preferential treatment. (Cases in point ... most do not file income taxes because it exposes them to scutny, their non-citizen kids qualify for college scholarships that American citizens cannot get. Why? Because they are so "disadvantaged."

I, like most of my fellows, cannot understand why someone that lives every day in violation of the law should be treated "better" than loyal, law-abiding citizens.

Having said all that, IF the Minutemen are a racist, Neo-Nazi thugs, as has been implied, inferred and assumed by some, then lets deal with them appropriately. OTOH, I still see no proof so far. Just more accusations and finger-pointing.

And don't even start knocking the concept of vigilantism ... anybody.

The Old Sarge

The issue of illegal immigration is one that tends to be transmitted to 'concerned citizens' by politicians. At times it's nothing more than a means of deflecting attention away from more pressing issues. The political parties here do it and the parties of the right on the European continent do it.

You say that the Minutemen come from areas that are overwhelmingly white. I think that says it all really. Those who live in other neighbourhoods do not seem to be as concerned about this problem, possibly because - as persons of colour - they know only too well what it is like to be on the receiving end of hatred.

My problem with all of this stems from the fact that over the course of US history, immigrants of every description have borne the brunt of suspicion and irrational hatred; the Irish, then the Poles, then the Chinese, then the Mexicans.

I don't think the Minutemen actually understand anything beyond their own interests but I also believe that such movements attract elements of the extreme right who also share their in fear of illegal immigration.

Illegal immigrants don't file taxes for obvious reasons but then, they aren't the only people who disappear from the state's radar either. There are those who disappear into the hills with literally the same aim: to avoid surveillance and detection.

2. It's been my experience that minorities in America tend not to get involved in demonstrations, rallies, etc unless their particular minority stands to gain. (Not a critisim, just an observation.)

"Stands to gain" or is already being oppressed and is taking a stand for its political rights? Of course one hopes to gain something by rallying and by organising; during the civil rights marches, blacks were hoping to gain the rights that had been denied to them by Jim Crow laws. If blacks hadn't taken to the streets, nothing would have changed and we would still have segregated facilities.

 

[The Old Sarge]

The issue of illegal immigration is one that tends to be transmitted to 'concerned citizens' by politicians. At times it's nothing more than a means of deflecting attention away from more pressing issues. The political parties here do it and the parties of the right on the European continent do it.

True enough. But in areas of the country, like mine, things like school over-crowding ... when almost 25% of the students are illegal immigrants? And property tax increases to pay for things like a new county jail (and more new schools) ... while more than 32% of the inmates of the existing jail are illegal immigrants? Then there's the issue of "free medical care for the 'indigent' ... when the majority of the 'indigent' around here are illegal immigrants? See? They cost money. Money we taxpayers have to fork over.

You say that the Minutemen come from areas that are overwhelmingly white. I think that says it all really. Those who live in other neighbourhoods do not seem to be as concerned about this problem, possibly because - as persons of colour - they know only too well what it is like to be on the receiving end of hatred.

I'm not referring to neighborhoods. I,m talking about large regions of the country. The population of my state is more than 88% white ... when you count only legal residents. When you throw illegal immigrants into the mix, the white pop falls to less than 80%. And we do not, contrary to popular myth, discourage minorities. It's simply that few minorities, other than Hispanics, have ever come here ... whether to visit OR to stay.

My problem with all of this stems from the fact that over the course of US history, immigrants of every description have borne the brunt of suspicion and irrational hatred; the Irish, then the Poles, then the Chinese, then the Mexicans.

Hear, hear! My own great, great grandparents came here from County Tyrone during the first potato famine. It was not until my grandfathers generation that they finally overcame the stigma of "Immigrant."

I don't think the Minutemen actually understand anything beyond their own interests but I also believe that such movements attract elements of the extreme right who also share their in fear of illegal immigration.

Exactly! The attraction is always there and orgs like the Minutement should be vigilant against the assholes that always hover at the edges.

Illegal immigrants don't file taxes for obvious reasons but then, they aren't the only people who disappear from the state's radar either. There are those who disappear into the hills with literally the same aim: to avoid surveillance and detection.

True again. But, the gov makes a special effort to root out such rebels. All the while ignoring the illegal immigrants who flaunt their illegality as well as their evasion of taxes.

... during the civil rights marches, blacks were hoping to gain the rights that had been denied to them by Jim Crow laws. If blacks hadn't taken to the streets, nothing would have changed and we would still have segregated facilities.

So where are some of the same blacks when it comes to standing for something that is not a black issue? You would think they would lend support as a matter of principle, huh? Afterall, all Americans' "rights" are being violated when they are forced to "pay the bill" for the illegal immigrants."

For the record, I'm not racist or anti-immigrant. But there is the rule of law and there comes a time when enough is enough. If people violate the law, they should be held accountable. If, OTOH, they want to come here to work and live, they ought do it correctly and legally and not simply scam the system. Frankly, I blame our gradual slide toward the Welfare State for a great many of our problems.

The Old Sarge

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And we do not, contrary to popular myth, discourage minorities. It's simply that few minorities, other than Hispanics, have ever come here ... whether to visit OR to stay.

I don't know from myth, but I do know that in my travels in the US, I've encountered more negative racial attitudes in Idaho and Montana than anywhere else I've been, including Kentucky, Missouri, etc.

I'm not saying that I encountered a lot of it in those two states, but simply more than elsewhere in the US.

 

[Azrael23]

Frankly, I blame our gradual slide toward the Welfare State for a great many of our problems.

The Old Sarge

Its an example of how mild socialism can be used as a weapon against the people as well as for it.

 

[The Old Sarge]

As in "more racists" per capita? lol

I have no doubt about that, Johnny. But one must remember ... Idaho has only about 1.6 million people. That's up from less than 750,000 35 years ago.

Among the "native-born" Idahoans ( less than 50% of current population), I'm sure you would find what could be called "racist attitude." However, most of those folks are also decidedly old fashioned, lesser educated, and the majority of them have never been very far from home. Call it pure ignorance. That's what I think it is. For instance, it's very easy to "hate" black people if all you ever had to go on was someone else's word. In less than an hour, I bet I can round up 100 people that, if they've ever MET a black person, cannot honestly say they actually know any. (Am I making this clear?) If and when they finally DO meet, and get to know, one they say stupid, but sincere-intending, things like, "Well, he's different. He's not like the rest." See? Ignorance. They flat don't know any better. Not even enough to keep their redneck mouths shut. Idaho is filled with good people. Ignorant maybe ... but good-hearted.

BTW, where you encountered the negetive racial attitudes ... I bet it was in the northern part of Idaho. Right?

The reason I ask, you do realize, don't you, that the Arian Nations made their home there until the locals finally got fed up with them? There are still some individuals around, but they don't have their little fort anymore.

The Old Sarge

 

[The Old Sarge]

Its an example of how mild socialism can be used as a weapon against the people as well as for it.

Amen! And in the current situation, I'm one of those (the majority) against whom it's being used.

The Old Sarge

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

As in "more racists" per capita? lol

I have no doubt about that, Johnny. But one must remember ... Idaho has only about 1.6 million people. That's up from less than 750,000 35 years ago.

Among the "native-born" Idahoans ( less than 50% of current population), I'm sure you would find what could be called "racist attitude." However, most of those folks are also decidedly old fashioned, lesser educated, and the majority of them have never been very far from home. Call it pure ignorance. That's what I think it is. For instance, it's very easy to "hate" black people if all you ever had to go on was someone else's word. In less than an hour, I bet I can round up 100 people that, if they've ever MET a black person, cannot honestly say they actually know any. (Am I making this clear?) If and when they finally DO meet, and get to know, one they say stupid, but sincere-intending, things like, "Well, he's different. He's not like the rest." See? Ignorance. They flat don't know any better. Not even enough to keep their redneck mouths shut. Idaho is filled with good people. Ignorant maybe ... but good-hearted.

BTW, where you encountered the negetive racial attitudes ... I bet it was in the northern part of Idaho. Right?

The reason I ask, you do realize, don't you, that the Arian Nations made their home there until the locals finally got fed up with them? There are still some individuals around, but they don't have their little fort anymore.

The Old Sarge

Couer d'Alene

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm not sure about the 'they're just country folks, a little ignorant' argument.

I've had occasion to be around 'country folk' in northwest washington state. To look at them, you think 'here comes the lynching'. To talk to them, they're kind and generous people.

 

[In Bloom]

All I've asked is that you post something that proves they are NOT that. Can you?
[...]
So .. if you have some proof of that alligation .. .POST IT!

What, exactly would constitute proof in your mind?

Because apparently the fact that they are doing the same thing as a group originally organised by the KKK under the same name and that several of their members have been caught carrying out the exact same sort of activity that fash always have doesn't quite cut it for you.

I simply offered an example. It could have been anything. If you make some derogatory connection between illegal immigrant and mostquitos, that's your doing. Don't hang around my neck.

Oh do fuck off. I suppose it was entirely coincidental that you chose to compare an armed vigilante campaign against immigrants to a campaign of local residents concerned about plagues of mosquitos? You are either deeply dishonest or incredibly stupid.

 

[nino_savatte]

True enough. But in areas of the country, like mine, things like school over-crowding ... when almost 25% of the students are illegal immigrants? And property tax increases to pay for things like a new county jail (and more new schools) ... while more than 32% of the inmates of the existing jail are illegal immigrants? Then there's the issue of "free medical care for the 'indigent' ... when the majority of the 'indigent' around here are illegal immigrants? See? They cost money. Money we taxpayers have to fork over.



I'm not referring to neighborhoods. I,m talking about large regions of the country. The population of my state is more than 88% white ... when you count only legal residents. When you throw illegal immigrants into the mix, the white pop falls to less than 80%. And we do not, contrary to popular myth, discourage minorities. It's simply that few minorities, other than Hispanics, have ever come here ... whether to visit OR to stay.



Hear, hear! My own great, great grandparents came here from County Tyrone during the first potato famine. It was not until my grandfathers generation that they finally overcame the stigma of "Immigrant."



Exactly! The attraction is always there and orgs like the Minutement should be vigilant against the assholes that always hover at the edges.



True again. But, the gov makes a special effort to root out such rebels. All the while ignoring the illegal immigrants who flaunt their illegality as well as their evasion of taxes.



So where are some of the same blacks when it comes to standing for something that is not a black issue? You would think they would lend support as a matter of principle, huh? Afterall, all Americans' "rights" are being violated when they are forced to "pay the bill" for the illegal immigrants."

For the record, I'm not racist or anti-immigrant. But there is the rule of law and there comes a time when enough is enough. If people violate the law, they should be held accountable. If, OTOH, they want to come here to work and live, they ought do it correctly and legally and not simply scam the system. Frankly, I blame our gradual slide toward the Welfare State for a great many of our problems.

The Old Sarge

Ethnic minorities have been deliberately divided; one group thinks that the fight isn't theirs because they have been told that such and such group is illegal or otherwise has some mark stamped upon them by the state. I am referring here to America's working class who have been told that they are not working class but belong to a particular racial group first and foremost and to choose a side.

I reiterate my point about this being a white-only concern and you even admit as much when you admit that these Minutemen come from states where there is nary a black face to be seen (Iowa is one such state and Idaho and Wyoming are two others). The reason why there aren't many blacks in these places did not happen by accident. You also have to understand how such states are perceived by those persons who are not white? Would they fell welcome? I doubt they do, particualrly in states like Wyoming. I would imagine also that the numbers of non-whites imprisoned in these states is disproportionate to the white population.

It's too easy to place blame on an easy target like the "Welfare State", which is pretty poor in comparison to other countries that have a national healthcare and insurance and other safety nets. The US welfare system lacks many of the features common in other schemes in other countries which also have welfare systems. So this notion that 'illegals' are attracted to the US's generous welfare system is a myth.

If you lived in a country where there was no work and you had a family to supprt and there were no opportunities, what would you do? Would you stay and suffer or move to find work?

 

[The Old Sarge]

Oh do fuck off. I suppose it was entirely coincidental that you chose to compare an armed vigilante campaign against immigrants to a campaign of local residents concerned about plagues of mosquitos? You are either deeply dishonest or incredibly stupid.

No, Bloomy, you fuck off. I am not responsible for your interpretation of my words. The particular connection between mosquitos and immigrants is entirely yours. You made it, you posted it, you live with it.

As for proof of who the Minutemen are and what the OGANIZATION represents, post something concrete and verifiable. Never mind the actions of a select few individuals. Forget the assholes hovering at the periphery. Make your case against the ORGANIZATION with facts and figures about and/or concerning the ORGANIZATION.

Put up or shut up.

The Old Sarge

 

[The Old Sarge]

I reiterate my point about this being a white-only concern and you even admit as much when you admit that these Minutemen come from states where there is nary a black face to be seen ...

But, Nino, you're either being deliberately unfair, or you misunderstand the reason. My area is not nearly all-white because we do anything to bar or deliberately discourage blacks, or any other ethnic group. These groups are free to come here and see for themselves, and in the last few years, more and more are doing exactly that. The lack of color in Idaho is simply because too many people buy into the "myth" I spoke of earlier. Too many accept as Gospel the tales about Idaho and its connection to the Arian Nations.

I say "tales" because the Arian Assholes that set up operations here were almost 100% outsiders. They came here from places that had already gotten fed up with them and run them out. Unfortunately, they gave my fair state an extremely ugly, undeserved black eye. We finally got fed up with their bullshit too. They are history. A few individuals still hang around, especially in the north around Coeur d'Alene, as Johnny posted. But the vast, vast majority of folks up there despise the bastards almost as much as their former 'victims' do.

The non-white faces in this valley, near the capitol of Boise, are on the increase. (We've always had the Hispanics, very many Japanese, now we are getting the black and other Asian.) WHy now? I think it's because a certain university in Boise has been on a growth spurt for the past several years. Some of the first black 'immigrants' to this valley showed up as students ... recruited by the university as athletes and scholars. It took a few years, but they eventually got the word out to their families and friends back home, wherever that is, that Idaho was not the Land O' Lyncin' they all had heard. Most of the black people that now call this vally home often laugh at the very myth they used to help perpetuate.

As for the prison thing? I'm sure you're wrong. The number of black faces in our state prison is far less than what population might dictate. Hispanic convicts, however, probably DO exceed the average among the general pop.

There are valid reasons for this though. Quite a few of the convicts are in for drug convictions ... mostly manufacture and/or distribution. The Hispanics population of the prison falls overwhelmingly into this category. That's simple enough ... the majority within the local drug trade are Hispanic. It's been proven time and time again. The local drug trade here is connected to the Hispanic gangs in southern California.

As for the "Welfare State," I'll add only this ...

IF the welfare state took care of us ALL ... instead of taking FROM the taxpayers and giving ONLY to the 'poor,' I would complain far less about "welfare." I still think the entire concept that someone else OWES you something is to blame for all the "sick, lame, and lazy" that sponge off the system. How does this relate to illegal immigrants, you ask?

Simple ... the illegals turn almost exclusively to the welfare system for medical help. The courts ensured this when they decided the welfare authorities cannot even ASK ask for ID and are prohibited from saying anything, one way or the other, about citizenship or immigrant status.

Would I deny a sick child medical help based on immigration status? Hell no! But I would also NOT FORCE someone else to pay for it.

Notice: I never said the illegals are attracted to the US for the "free Welfare Meds." I said they take full advantage of it, at the taxpayers expense, once they are here. Big difference, same result.

If I were a poor soul such as you mention?

I'd probably rob a bank or one of the fatcat capitalists that have held me down ... and THEN make my run for the border.

Seriously, I'd probably do the same thing. But I think I have enough integrity to accept that I am breaking the law and that I will be required to "pay the price" if and when I'm caught as opposed to claiming all manner of "rights" to which I am not really entitled.

Then again, I once qualified for weekly welfare payments, in my far off, nearly forgotten youth. I refused to even apply. I was too proud to become a burden and insisted that I WOULD make it on my own. I would have been ashamed and could not have looked at myself in the mirror. So maybe, in your example, I'd just tough it out and make the most of a bad situation.

The Old Sarge

 

[In Bloom]

No, Bloomy, you fuck off. I am not responsible for your interpretation of my words. The particular connection between mosquitos and immigrants is entirely yours. You made it, you posted it, you live with it.

I think you'll find you made the connection there, actually, when you made the comparison. Dick

As for proof of who the Minutemen are and what the OGANIZATION represents, post something concrete and verifiable. Never mind the actions of a select few individuals. Forget the assholes hovering at the periphery. Make your case against the ORGANIZATION with facts and figures about and/or concerning the ORGANIZATION.

Put up or shut up.

The Old Sarge

I repeat:
What, exactly would constitute proof in your mind?

Because apparently the fact that they are doing the same thing as a group originally organised by the KKK under the same name and that several of their members have been caught carrying out the exact same sort of activity that fash always have doesn't quite cut it for you.

Any particular reason you chose not to reply to this part of my post?

 

[nino_savatte]

But, Nino, you're either being deliberately unfair, or you misunderstand the reason. My area is not nearly all-white because we do anything to bar or deliberately discourage blacks, or any other ethnic group. These groups are free to come here and see for themselves, and in the last few years, more and more are doing exactly that. The lack of color in Idaho is simply because too many people buy into the "myth" I spoke of earlier. Too many accept as Gospel the tales about Idaho and its connection to the Arian Nations.

I say "tales" because the Arian Assholes that set up operations here were almost 100% outsiders. They came here from places that had already gotten fed up with them and run them out. Unfortunately, they gave my fair state an extremely ugly, undeserved black eye. We finally got fed up with their bullshit too. They are history. A few individuals still hang around, especially in the north around Coeur d'Alene, as Johnny posted. But the vast, vast majority of folks up there despise the bastards almost as much as their former 'victims' do.


The Old Sarge

I don't think I'm being unfair at all and I think my thesis is supported by the evidence that there are no non-whites who are members of The Minutemen. I'm not necessarily singling out Idaho for special treatment either. The Minutmen tend to concentrate their efforts on the Mexican border, so it is likely that large numbers of them are drawn from those states that border Mexico.

As for numbers of blacks in Idaho's prisons, I have no figures...needless to say that nationally, the numbers of blacks and Hispanics in US prisons is disproportionate to the size of their demographics.

I always thought the neighbouring state of Montana was notorious for Aryan nutters, Idaho has always been famous for potatoes...or at least it was when I was a kid.

 

[The Old Sarge]

I think you'll find you made the connection there, actually, when you made the comparison. Dick

Actually, I made an analogy. You made the comparison, oh dim one.

Continue fucking off.

 

[In Bloom]

Actually, I made an analogy. You made the comparison, oh dim one.

Your choice of analogy implied that the two situations are comparable.

Continue fucking off.

Since you apparently intend to continue ignoring the substantive parts of my posts, I may as well.

 

[The Old Sarge]

Idaho is still famous for spuds.

Montana is known for the Freemen ... the tax resisters, and general alround rebels. In fact, they resisted just about anything and everything they thought might save 'em a $ or two. lol

You're right about the US in general. I slipped into talking about Idaho because I'm more than familiar with the stats and the people. And, yes, the vigilanties along the US-Mexico border are probably overwhelmingly from Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. However, they draw a good bit of support from states farther north, like Idaho, because we are fed up with illegal immigrants and problems illegal immigration causes.

Hell, one of our county commissioners, the son of Mexican immigrants (legal immigrants), is LEADING the charge against illegals. It's not a question of race or ethnicity, Nino. At least not here and not with the vast majority of people. It's about the law and what is fair and square.

The Old Sarge

 

[In Bloom]

Oh, and:

analogy

n 1: an inference that if things agree in some respects they probably agree in others 2: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect; "the operation of a computer presents and interesting analogy to the working of the brain"; "the models show by analogy how matter is built up"

 

[The Old Sarge]

Your choice of analogy implied that the two situations are comparable.

Bullshit. I implied nothing. YOU made the connection.

Since you apparently intend to continue ignoring the substantive parts of my posts, I may as well.

And as long as you refuse to post something in the way of proof ... POOF! You're gone.

 

[chilango]

And, yes, the vigilanties along the US-Mexico border are probably overwhelmingly from Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

But I bet many of the "illegals" have stronger ties with Arizona, New Mexico and Texas than these recent white settlers....

 

[In Bloom]

Bullshit. I implied nothing. YOU made the connection.

Again:

analogy

n 1: an inference that if things agree in some respects they probably agree in others 2: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect; "the operation of a computer presents and interesting analogy to the working of the brain"; "the models show by analogy how matter is built up"

And as long as you refuse to post something in the way of proof ... POOF! You're gone.

Are you suggesting that their choice of name is a coincidence? Ahistorical bollocks

 

[nino_savatte]

Idaho is still famous for spuds.

Montana is known for the Freemen ... the tax resisters, and general alround rebels. In fact, they resisted just about anything and everything they thought might save 'em a $ or two. lol

You're right about the US in general. I slipped into talking about Idaho because I'm more than familiar with the stats and the people. And, yes, the vigilanties along the US-Mexico border are probably overwhelmingly from Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. However, they draw a good bit of support from states farther north, like Idaho, because we are fed up with illegal immigrants and problems illegal immigration causes.

Hell, one of our county commissioners, the son of Mexican immigrants (legal immigrants), is LEADING the charge against illegals. It's not a question of race or ethnicity, Nino. At least not here and not with the vast majority of people. It's about the law and what is fair and square.

The Old Sarge

Right, a son of Mexican immigrants would lead the charge against so-called illegals; it lends a certain credibility to the campaign, then people can't make the charge that it is racist.

Like I said, the Minutemen are all white and such organisations are going to be greeted with suspicion by those who do not share in their xenophobia.

 

[The Old Sarge]

But I bet many of the "illegals" have stronger ties with Arizona, New Mexico and Texas than these recent white settlers....

I bet they don't. Illegal immigration is not justified by dubious claims to territory.

If you want to get into US history and relations with Mexico, I suggest you start a new thread.

 

[The Old Sarge]

Right, a son of Mexican immigrants would lead the charge against so-called illegals; it lends a certain credibility to the campaign, then people can't make the charge that it is racist.

No. They can't justly make the charge because it is not so. It's not about being Mexican. It's about entering the country illegally. Period.

Like I said, the Minutemen are all white and such organisations are going to be greeted with suspicion by those who do not share in their xenophobia.

You're making judgements, Nino, against all the members and their motives? And for your info, not all the Minutemen are white. There are some Hispanics and Asians involved too. Maybe not up front, and certainly not seen in the media reports, but that only serves to feed your own view, and others like it, that maintain this whole thing is racially motivated. It is not about race or ethnicity. It's about breaking the law. Just because some would USE the issue to further their racist ends does not change the fact.

The Old Sarge

 

[The Old Sarge]

Are you suggesting that their choice of name is a coincidence? Ahistorical bollocks

Tell me the historic significance of the name "Minutemen." ... if you can.

 

[chilango]

I bet they don't. Illegal immigration is not justified by dubious claims to territory.

If you want to get into US history and relations with Mexico, I suggest you start a new thread.

Nonsense.

The thread is about vigilante patrols on the US/Mexican border.

Therefore the history of the region is very relevent.

Notably the fact that Arizona/New Mexico/Texas/California had (and still have) idigenous Mexican populations from before the 1848 annexation.

The current border being imposed upon the idigenous populations on both sides of it by recent white settlers.

Something that undermines your argument that it`s about potecting the US from "illegal aliens" (who just happenned to have been there first).

 

[The Old Sarge]

blahblahblahblah

Same old tired bullshit. The fact of the matter is, it's US territory now and the illegals are not coming here to claim territory. It (territory, prior claim, blahblahblah) has absolutly nothing to do with it.

Get over it.

The Old Sarge

 

[Azrael23]

To be fair if the govt was doing its job there`d be less immigration. Most of the people Bush demonised as vigilantes weren`t waving shotguns they were simply doing a border watch whereby they`d stake it out and phone the border patrol.

It shows us what a fake conservative bush is.

the port deals, the gun laws, the attacks on the constitution, sellling off texan roads etc.

Then you have these weasel neo-con boot lickers like Rush Limbaugh (cool name tho!) standing up saying thats all ok...

Americas enemy is within and in the city of london. (the banking metropolis of the greater city of London)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But isn't there a reality that there are so many illegals in the country, as there have been for decades, that they've become inextricably entwined with the economy, and it is now essentially impossible to eject them?

Also, how committed has the govt been to keeping illegals out? The Iron Curtain stretched through a lot of countries and territory, and although some people managed to slip through, it was pretty effective in stopping unauthorized cross border travel.

If the US was serious, it would have put up serious barricades on the Mexican border.

 

[Azrael23]

But isn't there a reality that there are so many illegals in the country, as there have been for decades, that they've become inextricably entwined with the economy, and it is now essentially impossible to eject them?

Also, how committed has the govt been to keeping illegals out? The Iron Curtain stretched through a lot of countries and territory, and although some people managed to slip through, it was pretty effective in stopping unauthorized cross border travel.

If the US was serious, it would have put up serious barricades on the Mexican border.

Exactly they want the cheap labour and another group they can blame the problems on....WIN/WIN for the globalists.