The Mind and the Brain

[Jonti]

An abacus can manipulate information; so can my PC.

If folks believe that "consciousness is calculation", then they should be able to explain how one should modify these devices, that they may experience even the smallest scintilla of awareness, when they process data.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

@cheesy: do dogs have souls, and if not, are they all sociopaths?

 

[Santino]

@alex

On the many many lesion, electrical stimulation, and chemical stimulation studies showing how manipulable the thing we perceive as 'I', is, via physical process.

I think these things establish that mental activity is caused by physical processes, but that is not the same thing at all as calculation.

Calculation is strictly the manipulation of symbols in alghorythmical (sp?) manner.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

We would accept that fear is a response of the conscious mind to external stimuli.

A major fear center in the brain—the amygdala—appears to be abnormal in children with obsessive-compulsive disorder. Treating them with an SSRI seems to correct the abnormality.

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/39/11/33

 

[Jonti]

I don't think there's any serious doubt that mental activity is caused by physical processes. The problem is that there are many physical processes in the brain, and not all of them give rise to conscious awareness. We don't understand what a physical process needs to do, in order for awareness to arise as a concomitant.

The only thing that consciousness is needed for, is to make decisions. So the physical processes associated with consciousness will also be involved in making decisions.

And making a decision, properly speaking, involves choosing one out of a number of possible futures; it involves the creation of new information.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Aggression is a response of the conscious mind to external stimuli, or so we believe.

Lesions of the rhinencephalon, primarily restricted to the amygdaloid complex, modify aggressive behavior of lynxes (Lynx rufus), agoutis (Dasyprocta agouti), monkeys (Macacus rhesus) and domestic cats toward relative docility and precipitate a state of chronic hypersexuality.

http://ajplegacy.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/184/3/486

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think these things establish that mental activity is caused by physical processes, but that is not the same thing at all as calculation.

Calculation is strictly the manipulation of symbols in alghorythmical (sp?) manner.

I'm using 'calculation' as an omnibus term to describe the physical processes of the brain as it relates to mentation.

 

[Cheesypoof]

@cheesy: do dogs have souls, and if not, are they all sociopaths?

irrelevant.

 

[Jonti]

JC2, no-one is disputing that mental activity is caused by physical processes, and that these give flavour to our experiences. Or that the brain can be influenced by drugs and trauma. I'm not clear what else you aim to establish with the links you're posting ...

 

[Jonti]

I'm using 'calculation' as an omnibus term to describe the physical processes of the brain as it relates to mentation.

I'm using English

 

[Santino]

Cheesy, just saying the soul is necessary for consciousness and conscience is not in the least bit meaningful. You might as well just say it's magic or woo-woo crystal energy. What explanatory power does the notion of a soul have?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

irrelevant.

Not sure why. Dogs have brains, they appear to exhibit traits like loyalty, attachment etc. They operate within a group hierarchy.

If they were sociopathic, the group dynamics would break down.

Do they have souls?

 

[Santino]

I'm using 'calculation' as an omnibus term to describe the physical processes of the brain as it relates to mentation.

Well don't

It is important to be precise in this kind of issue or you can get entangled into all sorts of nonsense.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

JC2, no-one is disputing that mental activity is caused by physical processes, and that these give flavour to our experiences. Or that the brain can be influenced by drugs and trauma. I'm not clear what else you aim to establish with the links you're posting ...

That many of the emotions, feelings etc that we associate with the operation of the conscious mind, can be radically altered by altering or influencing brain structure and function.

 

[Cheesypoof]

Cheesy, just saying the soul is necessary for consciousness and conscience is not in the least bit meaningful. You might as well just say it's magic or woo-woo crystal energy. What explanatory power does the notion of a soul have?

why do we have conscience? We dont need it.

 

[d.a.s.h]

I like it when talk is doomed to anything.

That sounds familiar.

I disagree that is parsimonious. The brain does a great many things which have no reflection in the mind.

If you prefer, 'the mind is among the things the brain does'.

 

[Jonti]

... Do [dogs] have souls?

Not according to the Book of Ecclesiastes, no

[18] I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
[19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
[20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

source

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And whatever 'consciousness' is, how can we be sure that dogs don't have it?

 

[kyser_soze]

why do we have conscience? We dont need it.

Survival trait - conscience (as opposed to consciousness) is related to empathy for other humans, other humans whose survival can improve our own chances of suviving.

That's why we need it.

 

[Santino]

why do we have conscience? We dont need it.

It's very handy. With it we have developed a sophisticated society based largely on mutual interest and trust, thus enabling us to live in houses with DVD players and not in caves eating raw meat.

 

[Cheesypoof]

And whatever 'consciousness' is, how can we be sure that dogs don't have it?

are you talking about CONSCIOUSNESS or CONSCIENCE?

im talking about conscience, like feeling guilt, remorse and stuff.

 

[Jonti]

You'd be a fool to deny it

imho, of course

 

[kyser_soze]

Already answered you cheesy...

 

[Santino]

That sounds familiar.

Eh?

 

[Cheesypoof]

Already answered you cheesy...

where?

 

[Jonti]

are you talking about CONSCIOUSNESS or CONSCIENCE?

im talking about conscience, like feeling guilt, remorse and stuff.

That's an interesting topic, but it's not the subject of this thread, which is about consciousness.

 

[d.a.s.h]

And whatever 'consciousness' is, how can we be sure that dogs don't have it?

People usually treat dogs as if they were conscious, intentional beings, and generally that seems a pretty productive way of getting along with them.

Also, dogs and many other animals occasionally do things which don't seem to have any other proximate goal than to produce pleasure.

Best to give animals the benefit of the doubt, imo.

 

[kyser_soze]

where?

Posts #23, 49 and Alex B in post #50.

 

[Cheesypoof]

That's why we need it.

to improve our chance of surviving? i think its flawed because of the remose and guilt we feel over killing things. The animal kingdom needs to survive like us, and conscience isnt key to their survival.

 

[danny la rouge]

Is this where I ask if humans are a type of animal?




<runs>