The Mike Leigh Backlash Thread

[Dubversion]

He reflects misogyny which already exists.

That said his female characters are often poorly constructed

I'd say the way his female characters are constructed reflects his misogyny - or, at best, misanthropy..

 

[exosculate]

I'd say the way his female characters are constructed reflects his misogyny - or, at best, misanthropy..

I think its a difficult thing to achieve. Male writers are always having trouble with female characters and vice versa. I give him the benefit of the doubt on that.

 

[Dubversion]

I don't - i see a lot of male writers who seem to create very credible female characters, and don't feel the need to make them all idiots and victims.

 

[exosculate]

I don't - i see a lot of male writers who seem to create very credible female characters, and don't feel the need to make them all idiots and victims.

Abigail isn't a victim. Neither is Candice-Marie. Or the black woman (sorry her character names escapes me at present) in Secrets and Lies.

There are also many women who do behave as victim in the real world, he doesn't portray them well though. There is more to criticise in the poor portrayal than the fact it is a portrayal of victimhood.

 

[Dissident Junk]

Or the black woman (sorry her character names escapes me at present) in Secrets and Lies.

I think it is Baptiste; she's now in Without a Trace, playing an excellent lead investigator.

And yes, it is. Marianne Jean-Baptiste who plays Vivian Johnson. Just checked.

And the first black British actress to be nominated for an Oscar as well.

 

[Dubversion]

Abigail isn't a victim. Neither is Candice-Marie. Or the black woman (sorry her character names escapes me at present) in Secrets and Lies.

There are also many women who do behave as victim in the real world, he doesn't portray them well though. There is more to criticise in the poor portrayal than the fact it is a portrayal of victimhood.

you've named three female characters, which is hardly a lot. And I don't think the earlier stuff really counts.

One of the sole exceptions is Marianne Jean-Baptiste...

 

[exosculate]

I think it is Baptiste; she's now in Without a Trace, playing an excellent lead investigator.

And yes, it is. Marianne Jean-Baptiste who plays Vivian Johnson. Just checked.

And the first black British actress to be nominated for an Oscar as well.

Thats the person, very good strong character she was too.

 

[exosculate]

you've named three female characters, which is hardly a lot. And I don't think the earlier stuff really counts.

One of the sole exceptions is Marianne Jean-Baptiste...

Well he hasn't made that many films.

I would say Vera Drake is a pretty strong character too.

As is the mother and one of the two daughters in Life is Sweet. The other daughter being bulimic is naturally likely to be a weaker character in some respects.

 

[killer b]

i've only seen vera drake of his recent films, but i thought that was splendid... i suppose there was a number of grotesques, but that was true of both sexes - and the central characters struck me as rather well drawn.

tbh, i rarely watch films thinking 'is that woman being truthfully? is there a misogynist subtext?', as i'm pretty sure the vast majority of films would score quite badly. perhaps i should, but i generally watch films for entertainment...

 

[pk]

I can take him or leave him... secrets and lies was saved by Brenda Blethyn, but Career Girls was shockingly awful.

I think if it had been shot on a cheap camcorder it might have worked, but you're aware of all that plastic acting and self-conciousness in front of a film crew, which makes it all even more pointless and excruciating.

 

[foo]

but he's a director who claims he's making films about the working classes and their lives, to reflect a leftist worldview. And yet his characters all seem like victims, idiots, twats or bastards. Hardly very sympathetic.

exactly! phew, i'm glad someone agrees with me. i've had this discussion a few times with hardened Leigh fans and i seem to lose my way because he's cited as such a great 'social commenter'. and that seems to be fact. well, even if that's the case. i don't like his view.

i find his view patronising and his characters, almost characatures (sp)

 

[ICB]

Never liked his stuff, dull and shallow.

 

[Orang Utan]

but he's a director who claims he's making films about the working classes and their lives, to reflect a leftist worldview. And yet his characters all seem like victims, idiots, twats or bastards. Hardly very sympathetic.

I think he's much better when he's sneering at the middle-classes

 

[billy_bob]

Well he hasn't made that many films.

I would say Vera Drake is a pretty strong character too.

Can you expand on that? Because I think he's completely sold her out - as I said in the thread I linked to above. She does what she does out of a sort of innate, no-nonsense compassion, far enough. But when it comes to defending her actions Leigh doesn't give her a single coherent line of dialogue - she just blubs and gurns meekly whilst everyone from judges to her own son spits in her eye. Every time I think about the film it makes me angry that the character was so let down by the director.

 

[billy_bob]

I think he's much better when he's sneering at the middle-classes

Well, sneering at the middle classes can be a perfectly entertaining pursuit if it's done with a bit of wit and insight, but try watching High Hopes. The old lady's next door neighbours are the most ridiculous, puerile, one-dimensional stereotypes imaginable.

 

[Orang Utan]

I liked that one

 

[billy_bob]

I liked that one

Actually, I think Cyril and his girlfriend are amongst Leigh's most likeable characters (though I wonder who the idealised-beardy-class-warrior character is based on...hmmm). But have you ever met the middle classes? Are they ANYTHING like the two in this film?

 

[Orang Utan]

Actually, I think Cyril and his girlfriend are amongst Leigh's most likeable characters (though I wonder who the idealised-beardy-class-warrior character is based on...hmmm). But have you ever met the middle classes? Are they ANYTHING like the two in this film?

They're upper middle classes and, yes, there are people like that - I've met 'em

 

[Calva dosser]

Is this the same Mike Leigh? Is The young plumber girl in 'Life is sweet' a pathetic victim or an idiot? Is the Alison Steadman character? The Blethyn character in Secrets, and the Baptiste character have been mentioned.

The Timothy Spall character in secrets is a top geezer.
Johnny, the notable Thewliss character in Naked, might be a right bastard, but nothing compared to the yuppie. Also, at the end, it slowly dawns that he's running away with the money because he doesn't want to fuck his girlfriends life anymore.

I don't see the class thing. He attacks a certain preposterous lower middle class pretentions, but does so in a clever way. Take Abigails party, when Abigail puts the Beaujolais in the 'fridge. We are meant to feel smug, because Beaujolais is red, but if we do, we're showing our middle class pretentions. Because chilled is how a Frenchperson would drink it.

Perhaps his most unbelievable over the top character was the Yuppie in Naked. Most of you have met him on here. MMMMSkyscraper I believe he was called

 

[chazegee]

Saw Abigail's party last night, I thought it was extremely funny. Just because he creates daft characters, doesn't mean he's diminishing a whole class/sex/whatever. That would be like trying to say Bram Stoker was tryng to topple the aristocracy with Dracula.

Shit, maybe he was?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Topsy Turvy's a good film.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I've only seen Naked, but I found it quite hard to watch. Not pleasant viewing at all.

 

[El Jefe]

Saw Abigail's party last night, I thought it was extremely funny. Just because he creates daft characters, doesn't mean he's diminishing a whole class/sex/whatever. That would be like trying to say Bram Stoker was tryng to topple the aristocracy with Dracula.

but that was 30 years ago, and a completely different kind of work than his later movies.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

but that was 30 years ago, and a completely different kind of work than his later movies.

than? Have you gone american?

 

[madzone]

He's a cunt to EVERYONE, not just women

^^^

Wot she said

 

[madzone]

I think you just identified why I like his stuff, I'm very drawn to the grotesque

Thanks

 

[meurig]

I used to love Mike Leigh films - i remember the first one I saw (Meantime) and I remember totally falling in love with his stuff.

But I found myself going off them (the main turning point was watching Naked in the late 90s with a girl who'd never seen it and who was positively furious at his portrayal of women).

As I've revisited them, I find i can barely stand some of the characters, find Leigh patronising and lazy. Find the misogyny he so vehemently denies fairly evident.

I find him close to unwatchable now and I'm amazed at how I loved him as much as I did.

It's mainly his sneering failure to find any humanity in the petty bourgeoisie I find objectionable these days.

One can either be gritty, semi-articulate and working class or snobbish and petty - no half measures; although that obviously denigrates the working class as well.

Topsy turvy excepted of course.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

I kinda agree with a lot of the criticism posted here. When alls said and done he has still contributed an awful lot to British cinema. You may not like his vision and style but it'd be hard not to pick 2 or 3 films/plays from his fairly big oevre that will stand the test of time.

It'd be silly to single out Naked as an example of misogyny. The plot is really the arrow of personal descent, nothing is going to get in it's way.

Just thinking about 'secrets and lies' it has all the Leigh hallmarks but some of the scenes are unforgettable, the acting superb e.g. when the drunk photographer shows up.

 

[imposs1904]

Well, sneering at the middle classes can be a perfectly entertaining pursuit if it's done with a bit of wit and insight, but try watching High Hopes. The old lady's next door neighbours are the most ridiculous, puerile, one-dimensional stereotypes imaginable.

Anybody know why High Hopes has never been released on DVD? I loved that film, and would love to see it again.