The media keeps saying about a 'rainbow coalition'?

[neprimerimye]

1. True to a point but tax revenue from those companies would be collected by the Welsh government, as in Ireland.

2. An 'evening out' of conditions across the European Union is not a foregone conclusion, indeed if i'm allowed to use Ireland again, their government has just firmly rejected a central European plan that would see tax harmonisation across national boundaries within the Union. Such a plan cannot go ahead without the full consent of each member state. The European Union may well be viewed as a transnational project making national sovereignty a less relevant concept, but the truth is that national sovereignty is in fact preserved within the EU and wide-scale EU arrangements like the Consitution require ratification by every single member state, and cannot be imposed in a less democratic fashion. So in economic terms, in fact exploitation is still very much conditioned by national boundaries, until such a time the EU introduces direct central taxation mechanisms (in which case it would not be feasible for Plaid Cymru to advocate decentralism from London, but then centralism to Brussells).

3. Wales is historically an oppressed nation, as can be evidenced in the economic, social and cultural fields. All of these fields have examples of national oppression by the British Empire. Economically, Welsh industry generated huge amounts of money for English masters who left those exploited areas in ruins and invested none of those profits back into the land. Socially, the workers of Wales were subjugated by foreign governments, including the Thatcher regime, that did not have a democratic mandate in Wales. Culturally, Wales' indigenous culture and language was attacked by the forces of the English educational establishment, as the Blue Books demonstrate, with the introduction of succesful measures designed to deliberately prevent the people of Wales from speaking their original language.


4/ Outside of Wales in England, the attitudes towards Wales displayed by the media establishment and by official politics are breathtaking. Wales is often regarded as a backwater, insignificant and there to be used when necessary. Wales is not considered a valuable or vital part of the United Kingdom and is in fact resented by the large part of the English consciousness.

5/ A more co-operative relationship between Wales and England could be easily achieved by the democratically elected governments of those two countries working together on equal terms. At present, the relationship is neither fair nor equal, and thus generates an unhealthy level of hostility, tension and unease.

6/ The Welsh national community is not artificial and is in fact organic in the sense that it exists readily in the consciousness of the huge and undeniable majority of people in Wales. Co-operation within this national community, rather than class conflict, will create a more beneficial atmosphere for the workers. In other social democratic countries, a bridging of the class divide in the national consciousness and cross-class co-operation has resulted in benefits for the working classes which far outstrip and exceed the conditions currently (un)enjoyed in Britain.

7/ Let's face it, historically Wales has never been given the chance to run itself. It is about time we stood up for ourselves and took hold of our own destiny. We need a government based in Wales run by the people of Wales with full and appropriate powers. Anything less is unacceptable and will not be effective.

This thread has gone way past its ostensible starting point so after this i quit.

1/ In essence you concede my point. Moreover should a Welsh state try to tax companies more than its competitors they would simply move away thus removing jobs and tax revenues.

2/ Lewislewis central to my argument is that the evening out of the rate explitation is a tendency not an iron law. But it is an observable tendency across state borders that clearly operates regardless of counter-measures taken by national governments. Although I admit that Pol Pots Khmer was an exception but not one you would want to emulate I hope! moeover exploitation is not contained within national, in fact you should say state, borders as the movement of hundreds of thousands of workers to the UK demonstrates full well.

3/ The idea that Wales now or historically is an oppressed nation is absurd and has been well rehearsed on these boards. So I'll not repeat myself at this time. In any case its too silly an idea to bear much debate.

4/ Wales is a backwater. So are Luxemburg and Andorra.

5/ Nations are not and cannot be equal whatever that is meant to mean. Wales is a small country and England is a bigger country. Thems the facts sweetie.

6/ What the fuck is a 'social-democratic country'? Look you Lewislewis any worker who shares a sense of 'community' with any boss is a fool. The Labour Party have been preaching class peace, in exactly the same terms you are now using, for decades and it only damages the working class.

7/ Sure I've no problem with an independent Welsh state. Just so long as it immediatly joins the United Workers States of Europe. Anything else will simply leave Wales prey to the tender mercies of the boss class and the MNC's.

 

[lewislewis]

Haha that's fine, i'll let you go in peace but I suspect you'll take one last parting shot.

Well in regards to your first point, this is not a new issue and has faced governments for ages. I will use two examples, Norway (which is outside the EU so may be different to this argument) and Ireland both reduced their corporation taxes significantly, but eventually the revenue was 'made back' if you like. Ireland is perhaps not the model to emulate at all, but is an example of where low start-up tax eventually pays itself off. In that country there is a tax windfall but sadly alot of the money has been squandered through corruption and through constant investment in public services not to meet the needs of the peeps but to keep services up with the economy. Probably not a scenario we want to get into, but still, lowering corporation tax for poor areas of Wales would get jobs to those places, and we'd still be making money from income taxes, taxing personal incomes, progressive taxation etc.

With your second point, it is the reality of globalisation that has been brought home by the European Union and the easy movement of foreign labour to the UK. I would be wrong to suggest that exploitation was solely a national event or contained within state borders, but surely right to argue that a response by government at national level is more effective than trying to work out a transnational agreement between a dozen or more different states? Exploitation can be reduced contrary to whatever tendencies or trends exist, there are examples across Europe.

3. Yep and that debate has usually resulted in yes Wales has been oppressed, though the debate is I admit usually sentimentalised and romanticised.

4. You miss my point. The relationship between the English establishment and the people of Wales is founded on colonialism.

5. I know but some measure of equality is required, we should be a member of the United Nations and should be representing ourselves at Europe. We need representation because as part of the UK we are ignored. A clear example of this is when we nearly lost Objective One funding to the Valleys and West Wales, this was fought for and won I admit by Welsh representatives working through the UK, but the fact is we nearly lost it because of being part of the UK. That funding is fairly important, not just a minor quibble, because it is in the billions of pounds.

6. "Look you" yourself butt, I have nothing to gain by removing my boss, although taxing him to fund the welfare state is a vital ingredient. I have alot to gain however from keeping my job and removing the yoke of London rule.

7. MNCs and bosses are a fact of life, we'll work around them and keep them at arms length where possible, but class warfare and social disruption is not in our interest either as a people, a national grouping or a class. It is not on the agenda for 99% of the Welsh people by their own decision.

 

[Dic Penderyn]

I have nothing to gain by removing my boss, although taxing him to fund the welfare state is a vital ingredient. I have alot to gain however from keeping my job and removing the yoke of London rule.

This is shit.

My boss and my employment status (along with my landlord) is the cause of most of the problems in my life. The fact laws come from london rather than cardiff makes no differance whatsoever.

 

[lewislewis]

Why don't you kick him out then you anarchist you?

 

[llantwit]

Why don't you invite him to sit around the table and have an adult discussion and make some tough choices to sacrifice a little in the name of maintaining a strong consenus and a vibrant and thriving democracy while he still robs you blind and rubs you face in his own faeces you liberal reformist, you?

 

[llantwit]

D'oh. You already did.

 

[lewislewis]

There is alot more to my life than my job but I do like to have a steady income.

 

[llantwit]

Yeah, me too mate. Just kicking the shit, like.

 

[neprimerimye]

Haha that's fine, i'll let you go in peace but I suspect you'll take one last parting shot.

Well in regards to your first point, this is not a new issue and has faced governments for ages. I will use two examples, Norway (which is outside the EU so may be different to this argument) and Ireland both reduced their corporation taxes significantly, but eventually the revenue was 'made back' if you like. Ireland is perhaps not the model to emulate at all, but is an example of where low start-up tax eventually pays itself off. In that country there is a tax windfall but sadly alot of the money has been squandered through corruption and through constant investment in public services not to meet the needs of the peeps but to keep services up with the economy. Probably not a scenario we want to get into, but still, lowering corporation tax for poor areas of Wales would get jobs to those places, and we'd still be making money from income taxes, taxing personal incomes, progressive taxation etc.

With your second point, it is the reality of globalisation that has been brought home by the European Union and the easy movement of foreign labour to the UK. I would be wrong to suggest that exploitation was solely a national event or contained within state borders, but surely right to argue that a response by government at national level is more effective than trying to work out a transnational agreement between a dozen or more different states? Exploitation can be reduced contrary to whatever tendencies or trends exist, there are examples across Europe.

3. Yep and that debate has usually resulted in yes Wales has been oppressed, though the debate is I admit usually sentimentalised and romanticised.

4. You miss my point. The relationship between the English establishment and the people of Wales is founded on colonialism.

5. I know but some measure of equality is required, we should be a member of the United Nations and should be representing ourselves at Europe. We need representation because as part of the UK we are ignored. A clear example of this is when we nearly lost Objective One funding to the Valleys and West Wales, this was fought for and won I admit by Welsh representatives working through the UK, but the fact is we nearly lost it because of being part of the UK. That funding is fairly important, not just a minor quibble, because it is in the billions of pounds.

6. "Look you" yourself butt, I have nothing to gain by removing my boss, although taxing him to fund the welfare state is a vital ingredient. I have alot to gain however from keeping my job and removing the yoke of London rule.

7. MNCs and bosses are a fact of life, we'll work around them and keep them at arms length where possible, but class warfare and social disruption is not in our interest either as a people, a national grouping or a class. It is not on the agenda for 99% of the Welsh people by their own decision.

Oh alright then since you insist.

1/ Everything you say is true but the trouble is that the tendency under discussion is more powerful now thaqn ever before in human history. Any action taken by a national government can only have a temporary affect.

2/ I'm unaware of any examples of the rate of exploitation being seriously countered by the actions of national governments.

3/ That is a matter of opinion. I disagree with that rather silly opinion.

4/ The idea Wales is a colony is absurd. But frankly even if Wales were independent it would remain a backwater in terms of economics, politics and culturally. It is a small country with two langauages how could it be otherwise? Think of that silly country Belgium for a comparison.

5/ Its a funny kind of independence that argues for remaining in the EU in order to recieve subsidies. its a funnier kind of independence that argues for joining the Un, that thieves den, for reasons of empty prestige. Surely a genuine nationalist should be arguing for Wales tostand in its own?

6/ Your boss is a parasite, all bosses are parasites. There is no objective reason why workers cannot run their workplaces collectively. That is after all a part of the socialist vision. And do I not recall you arguing that Plaid is a socialist party?

7/ Class struggle is in the objective interests of all workers and is an objective fact of life. I'm afraid you seem to lack an understanding of what is meant by the term. I note for your benefit that it is not restriicted to open political confllict between the classes which is, i agree, not currently on the agenda. As for MNC's and bosses such 'facts' can be eliminated. Better yet liquidated.

 

[lewislewis]

I knew you'd come back to me my love.

Instead of fully refuting your statements, i'll just say, Belgium isn't a backwater at all! Beautiful place. Very flat though. I prefer mountains.

With Europe I think it's an interesting project and we'd get alot out of it. Economically it is worth being in the EU, and some of the EU legislation has been alot more progressive than anything we'd get out of Westminster.

Perhaps one day the political conditions will necessesitate a liquidation of MNCs and bosses, but for now I think i'll stick to reformism.

 

[neprimerimye]

I think i'll stick to reformism.

When you mean capitalism say capitalism.

 

[lewislewis]

6/ Your boss is a parasite, all bosses are parasites. There is no objective reason why workers cannot run their workplaces collectively. That is after all a part of the socialist vision. And do I not recall you arguing that Plaid is a socialist party?

I do actually think that what you say there is true. But at present i'm not sure the correct conditions for revolutionary socialism are there, well they certainly aren't. Further to this argument, at the current stage of liberal capitalism and the ability of elected governments to deliver reforms to that system, i'm not convinced the correct conditions for revolutionary socialism will arrive in Wales. If they do however, well I imagine it will be a very difficult but exciting process and in true Welsh tradition I can't imagine it being very quiet.

Plaid Cymru is indeed a socialist party but certainly not in the sense you imagine. Plaid has its own brand of socialism called decentralist socialism which was developed as a response to the Labour party's top-down dependency socialism in the Valleys. Essentially, both of these 'socialisms' I have mentioned are democratic or evolutionary in nature, in that they do not challenge the existing capitalist system. Plaid Cymru's socialism was originally not intended to have anything to do with the capitalist economic system but was instead intended to incur changes in the mindset of workers in the valleys, which in any case must be a pre-condition for any further level of politicisation of a workers movement in Wales. There has also been a Christian ethical influence on Plaid's Welsh-tailored socialism, which can no doubt be traced to Gwynfor Evans et al.
The author Dr. Kate Roberts was the first real proponent of a socialist approach for Plaid Cymru, which it was hoped would revive the community spirit in Welsh communities. However decentralist socialism which relies not on the state but on the actual communities of workers, was chiefly developed by the brilliant DJ Davies, a man our children sadly aren't taught about in school. Davies was also highly influenced by his wife Noelle, an Irish academic. Davies himself was a miner from the age of 12, in Wales and then America where he was also a succesful amateur boxer. He worked all over the world as a surveyor, joined the American navy, nearly died at least twice and became a socialist, later joining the Labour party. However he disliked Labour's top-down socialism and preferred his own brand, which he describes as (and this is a perfect description of what Plaid Cymru stands for):
"a harmonious system of society where spiritual values take precedence over material values." He later made Plaid move its headquarters from Caernarfon to Cardiff, and to make greater use of the English language.

Indeed, if we want to win freedom for Wales we need to be invoking the nationalism of D.J Davies.

What a good bloke, writing this has reminded me how much Plaid is relevant to me and i thank you Neprimerimye for bringing it up, I love to share this history because not many people know about it. Maybe somebody browsing through these forums will read it and take an interest in something I wasted 10 minutes of my life writing.

 

[llantwit]

I do actually think that what you say there is true. But at present i'm not sure the correct conditions for revolutionary socialism are there, well they certainly aren't. Further to this argument, at the current stage of liberal capitalism and the ability of elected governments to deliver reforms to that system, i'm not convinced the correct conditions for revolutionary socialism will arrive in Wales. If they do however, well I imagine it will be a very difficult but exciting process and in true Welsh tradition I can't imagine it being very quiet.

This is the classic liberal ecsuse, though. You must realise this. It's not like revolutions grow on trees, or just arrive unanounced when you least expect them like a Cardiff bus.
Isn't the whole point that you have to fight for them?

 

[neprimerimye]

I do actually think that what you say there is true. But at present i'm not sure the correct conditions for revolutionary socialism are there, well they certainly aren't. Further to this argument, at the current stage of liberal capitalism and the ability of elected governments to deliver reforms to that system, i'm not convinced the correct conditions for revolutionary socialism will arrive in Wales. If they do however, well I imagine it will be a very difficult but exciting process and in true Welsh tradition I can't imagine it being very quiet.

Plaid Cymru is indeed a socialist party but certainly not in the sense you imagine. Plaid has its own brand of socialism called decentralist socialism which was developed as a response to the Labour party's top-down dependency socialism in the Valleys. Essentially, both of these 'socialisms' I have mentioned are democratic or evolutionary in nature, in that they do not challenge the existing capitalist system. Plaid Cymru's socialism was originally not intended to have anything to do with the capitalist economic system but was instead intended to incur changes in the mindset of workers in the valleys, which in any case must be a pre-condition for any further level of politicisation of a workers movement in Wales. There has also been a Christian ethical influence on Plaid's Welsh-tailored socialism, which can no doubt be traced to Gwynfor Evans et al.
The author Dr. Kate Roberts was the first real proponent of a socialist approach for Plaid Cymru, which it was hoped would revive the community spirit in Welsh communities. However decentralist socialism which relies not on the state but on the actual communities of workers, was chiefly developed by the brilliant DJ Davies, a man our children sadly aren't taught about in school. Davies was also highly influenced by his wife Noelle, an Irish academic. Davies himself was a miner from the age of 12, in Wales and then America where he was also a succesful amateur boxer. He worked all over the world as a surveyor, joined the American navy, nearly died at least twice and became a socialist, later joining the Labour party. However he disliked Labour's top-down socialism and preferred his own brand, which he describes as (and this is a perfect description of what Plaid Cymru stands for):
"a harmonious system of society where spiritual values take precedence over material values." He later made Plaid move its headquarters from Caernarfon to Cardiff, and to make greater use of the English language.

Indeed, if we want to win freedom for Wales we need to be invoking the nationalism of D.J Davies.

What a good bloke, writing this has reminded me how much Plaid is relevant to me and i thank you Neprimerimye for bringing it up, I love to share this history because not many people know about it. Maybe somebody browsing through these forums will read it and take an interest in something I wasted 10 minutes of my life writing.

An interesting post Lewisleis. How about using it to begin a new thread on the nature of Plaid Cymru? That might well be an interesting thread.

Btw the Xian influence on Plaid sounds totally compatible with the doctrines of Rerum Novarum and/or the oft talked of Methodist influence on the Labour Party. In other words it sucks Satans dick.

 

[lewislewis]

Could be worth doing but I don't want to flood the place with Plaid threads. I suppose the nature of PC is important to this thread as they might end up leading the modestly empowered Welsh govt.

I actually think it's very different to the 'Christian socialist' influence on the Labour movement and in fact has more to do with pacifism and the anti-war stuff, than the social stuff, although I put it in because D.J Davies had a spiritual conversion which altered his politics and indeed his take on socialism.

 

[rhys gethin]

I disagree with Lewislewis but his sense of humour is a saving grace. Your sustained display of petulant ignorance is not.

Marx I note wrote his doctoral thesis on Epicurean phiolosophy in which he made several remarks concerning Plato. Remarks in which he makes it clear his opposion to Plato's system while admitting his genius. In plain English yet again you're spouting nonsense on a topic you are woefully ignorant of.

I hate to tell you this, but I was making fun of a bloody idiot. Who could that be, I wonder?

 

[neprimerimye]

I hate to tell you this, but I was making fun of a bloody idiot. Who could that be, I wonder?

A glance in the mirror should supply you with the answer.

 

[lewislewis]

Now now boys, sit down see, and have some of grandma's special tea.

 

[Gavin Bl]

you lot should be on the radio - 'Reform or Revolution, mun' hosted by Owen Money

"Right, tidy - can we 'ave socialism in one country, or do we 'ave to ally with the working classes of other countries? Except England of course."

 

[rhys gethin]

you lot should be on the radio - 'Reform or Revolution, mun' hosted by Owen Money

"Right, tidy - can we 'ave socialism in one country, or do we 'ave to ally with the working classes of other countries? Except England of course."

The point is that there is very little hope of socialism in one country or anywhere else (all six revolutionary English comrades are welcome to join the struggle) the choice of barbarism having been very clearly made. The little can actually be saved for humanity - essentially neighbourhood, language and human culture - is being jeopardised by idiots who believe it is 1917 in Petrograd and only the purest of pure lines is acceptable to a working class involved in intense struggle . In my view these idiots should go and pray to the Dialectic in a marxist monastery somewhere and stop wasting everyone's time with purist fatuities.

 

[lewislewis]

Sad but true. I think the intentions of the revolutionary left (which must number only a handful of people in the whole Brtish isles) are good. I think alot of theory is sound on paper, but i'm not convinced anything to do with the human race runs to plan or to theories, no matter how tight they seem. We can however try and protect things like social justice, communities, our enviornment and our languages.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Yawn.

Is it true that Plaid are now in coalition with the Tories on Swansea Council?

That they are pushing for a similar arrangement in Caerphilly?

And that a Plaid Cllr. has now pleaded guilty to animal cruelty? (Shortly AFTER the election)

 

[lewislewis]

No we are forming a Hindu-Hobo Coalition to run Tipi Valley, free cardboard shoes for all.

 

[rhys gethin]

Yawn.

Is it true that Plaid are now in coalition with the Tories on Swansea Council?

That they are pushing for a similar arrangement in Caerphilly?

And that a Plaid Cllr. has now pleaded guilty to animal cruelty? (Shortly AFTER the election)

Even more enormous yawn. Go and take a look at the relations between New Labour and Thomas Cook, there's a good boy.

 

[lewislewis]

Labour are in coalition with Tories on English councils, it isn't a big deal, and in fact Plaid Cymru is not in coalition with the Conservatives on Swansea Council or Caerphilly Council (or any other council in Wales).

Are there any real issues you wish to discuss?

Tell me Udo, what councils do Respect run? How many elected members does Respect have in Wales? How many people in Wales are Respect helping at the moment? What decisions are Respect involved in (and no I don't mean 'calling for' something because nobody cares what Respect calls for, I mean actually helping your community)?

Of course, this is unfair of me to harass Udo in this manner, because Respect does not exist in Wales to any real extent. So I shall ask him questions about London where they have an elected MP.

What impact is George Galloway having in the UK's Parliament, especially when compared to other left MP's such as those in Plaid Cymru? Do you support Galloway? What attacks are your beloved 'Labour Left' MP's currently launching on Tony Blair?

 

[lewislewis]

Looks like Labour is now talking with Plaid, wouldn't really want to go into coalition with them to be honest but I suppose they're the closest to us politically.

 

[Dic Penderyn]

they're all close to you politically. because YOUR ALL THE FUCKING SAME. (I include Udo's tiny sect along with every other political party in that too).

 

[lewislewis]

Not really, Plaid Cymru is the only party not funded by big business and is the only Welsh nationalist party, the only party to have republican AMs, the only decentralist party, the only internally democratic party and the only fully bi-lingual party.

 

[Dic Penderyn]

But still a bunch of people who think everything would be okay if THEY had the power

They're not decentralist or democratic in the true sense of the words either. No fucker in hierarchical politics is.

A Plague On All Your Houses

 

[lewislewis]

But still a bunch of people who think everything would be okay if THEY had the power

They're not decentralist or democratic in the true sense of the words either. No fucker in hierarchical politics is.

A Plague On All Your Houses

We don't think everything would be okay, under the current rules we won't be able to have 'the power' as you conveniently summarise it. Most of 'the power' that we'd want is reserved at Westminster for use by the UK.

Also there would still be things beyond the government's control and beyond any government's control. All we're asking is for things to change for the better.

My decentralist and democratic points were made in the sense of the way the party works. Plaid elected members are allowed to voice any opinion they wish as long as it is not offensive or extremist, whereas members of the other parties have to toe the party line. As for 'internally democratic' I made the correct point that the Plaid people at the top level can do very little without it being authorised by the membership delegates, so the grassroots has control of the party. Obviously there has to be some flexibility where the AMs can do whatever they want for strategic reasons, but no other major party works in this way.

These are major differences between Plaid and the other parties.